Making Sense of the Trinity

[Siberian_Khatru]

Here is my understanding of the Trinity/Godhead:

• God is God and the father. God is all mighty.
• Jesus is the son and second person in the Trinity. Jesus is all mighty with God.
• The Holy Spirit the third entity. The Holy Spirit is equal with God and Jesus.

I might be askew on how I presented that, so please bear with me. With those bullet points out of the way, here are my questions:

1. If God is all mighty, how can Jesus - or the Holy Spirit - be equal with Him? I.e. if three beings are all mighty, none of them are "all" mighty - right? Wouldn't they share might?
2. Father, Son, and Spirit = One God. One God = manifested in three entities. I can't wrap my head around whether this is a monotheism or a polytheism. How is Christian belief a monotheism? How is not a polytheism (or is it)?

Thanks for your time!

 

[oldhermit]

Perhaps this will help.

By oldhermit

Trying to get our minds wrapped around the concept of God, particularly as it relates to Jesus is a difficult undertaking. The difficulty is in our language use. Linguistic valence refers to the definitions that we attach to words in order to connect language to an idea. The problem that shows up in defining the nature of God is that we connect definitions to human language to help us create a picture of God with which we are comfortable. I offer the following well-known definition as an example. "God is one single unified essence. Yet, within this single unified essence of God are three separate and distinct persons of deity who are one God, each member having his part in the creation and redemption of man" (unknown source). Now, I am not at all sure when or where this definition of God originated, but it is one that I have heard from a number of different sources over the years. While this definition may represent a not altogether invalid understand of the triadic unity it does present three immediate problems.
1. The definition itself; Man is not prone to accept anything on faith. Man feels he must be able to define, explain, and classify a thing before he will accept it. This of course, becomes problematic when we think in terms of the nature of God. It is impossible to reduce God to a linguistic formula.
2. The use of the word ‘unified’. We can only comprehend unity as we see it within the confines of our own human experience, not as it applies to God.
3. The use of the word ‘essence’: The word essence is a good enough word I suppose. I am hard pressed to find a better one, but the way in which we have used this word in relationship to God does not seem to fit the profile of God in scripture. Strictly speaking, essence is that which makes a thing what it is. It is the inward nature of a thing underlying its manifestations. Essence refers to the characteristics and relations of a thing.

In his book THE TIMELESS TRINITY, Roy Lanier Jr. assigns this definition to the triadic unity. "God is one ‘being’ consisting of three persons, one essence, one ‘being’; an undivided essence."

The use of the term God in scripture does not seem to describe a single being as expressed by Mr. Lanier, but a single collective of three beings. Not one being made up of three parts but three beings united in one nature. The word God itself describes a perfect ontological state or quality of existence. God is not who he is, but what he is. Who he is, is Jehovah. What he is should be understood as an anthology of perfect attributes represented in three hypostatic distinctions.

God has never given us anything by which to formulate a picture of him as a spiritual being outside of his intrinsic attributes. What he has given us defines certain aspects of his nature, character, and function. When we talk about the nature of anything, it must be understood bi-camerally. The nature of any object or person is always made up of two parts. The first part is essence. Essence refers to those qualities that make a thing what it is. Take for example a flower. The essence of any flower is those traits that classify it as a flower. A flower is a seed producing plant consisting of four sets of organs - carpels, stamens, petals, and sepals. These traits typically classify the object as a flower. The second part is character. Each flower has its own distinguishing characteristics that define it still further. These characteristics separate it from all other flowers and give it individuality. These would be such traits as structure, type, shape, color, fragrance, type of fruit, and the type of climate and soil it requires. These are all qualities that define what kind of flower it is. Now, if we may be permitted to assign this definition to the nature of God, then the essence of God would be those qualities that make God, God. These would be qualities like Eternal, Self-existing, self-sustaining, Transcendent, All-powerful, All-knowing, All-wise, and Ever-present. The character of God would be those qualities that describe what kind of God he is. He is HOLY, loving, just, righteous, gentle, merciful, and so on. You may prefer to think of them as primary and secondary attributes.

These attributes do not constitute a substance or some type of spiritual equivalent to material form. They represent a quality of existence. This quality of existence is further amplified by what may be regarded as extended attributes that describe what kind of God this is. Both the intrinsic qualities and the extended properties are elements of all three hypostatic distinctions. While each member of the triadic unity seems to constitute some type of spiritual substance, the singularity of the three exists not only in the quality of existence but also in the attributes of their character, not in substance. We can never find a passage that relegates the term God to substance except within the framework of each individual member.
When we try to get our mind wrapped around the concept of a triune God that the scriptures describes as ONE GOD, we typically regard this as a paradox that is beyond the ability of the human mind to grasp or explain, so we simply accept it and move on. Over the past two centuries, four major theological theories have surfaced that have attempted to either explain the unity of one God or to refute or at least minimize the idea of triadic unity altogether. These are Monotheism (which is divided into two camps – Adoptionism and Modalism), Unitarianism, Tritheism, and Trinitarianism. To me, these terms are quite irrelevant. I really do not care what difference or similarities may exist between these four theological diciplines. I am only concerned with trying to understand how the Word of God represents the triadic unity without regard to any human classifications. If I may, I would like to offer a simple explanation that I believe might help us better grasp the idea of the oneness of the triadic unity.

Music is created around the structuring of chords. A chord is a collection of notes that form a harmonic. The ‘c’ cord for example, is a triad consisting of the notes c, e, and g. Each individual note within the triad functions in a specific relationship to the others creating a pleasing sound. These are three separate and distinct notes that function within given parameters yet, they are one chord. We do not have a problem understanding this concept as it relates to something as simple as music, but somehow when we think of God as a triadic ONE, our minds go into melt down. This illustration is by no means without its inadequacies and limitations but it does help us to understand the viability of the oneness of unity. Divine triadic function is a harmonic. It is an arrangement of parts rooted in the nature of God.

Scripture reveals God in three hypostatic distinctions. These three distinct functions involve intelligent design, active cause, and organization. For now, I will only refer to each of these in terms of his respective position within the triadic structure. I use the idea of position simply to show the functional relationship that each appears to have with the others and to define the role that each has within the triadic structure. The First Position (occupied by the Father) will always appear as the one who represents the idea or the planning. It is also the position of command. The Second Position (that occupied by the Logos) will always be the avenue of communication between the two worlds as well as the causative agent. He will be the one who gives substance to the idea. He takes what is abstract (the idea of the Father) and gives it form and substance. The Third Position (occupied by the Holy Spirit) will always serve as the linking agent. He is the one who brings order to the work of the Second Position. He organizes the work of the Second Position so that it conforms exactly to the idea of the First Position. He shapes a finished product.

These positional functions of each appear to be exclusive. In all of my 40 plus years as a student of scripture, I find it quite interesting that I have been unable to find a single textual example where one member of the Triadic Unity is seen operating in the function of another member. For example, we never seem to find the Third Position functioning as the active cause or the Second Position functioning as the linking agent. Each member of the triadic unity always appears to function within the parameters of his exclusive dynamic.

We attempt to describe God as a being with a spiritual substance that encapsulates three persons. This seems to be the only way we have been able to conceptualize the idea of a triadic ONE. The Hebrew, term for ONE in Deuteronomy 6:4 defines a unique ontological quality, not a numeric essence of being. There are places where some of these may appear to overlap but this does not change the basic parameters of positional function.

I am not sure if there is a better word to be used here than essence, but this emphasizes my point that the nature of God cannot be understood within the parameters of human language. The use of this term is one of our own creation. This word conveys on one level the idea of material existence suggesting form or shape, but this definition does not seem to be expressed in scripture. At the same time, it defines intrinsic qualities and characteristics that may have nothing to do with form, shape, or substance. It often refers to intrinsic attributes that are abstract. For example, one cannot see love. One can only see the evidence of love when it is demonstrated in one's conduct. One cannot see kindness. One can only see the effects of kindness. This is how the word essence should be understood in relation to the nature of God. It is important that we do not equate essence with matter, form, or some type of spiritual equivalent to material substance when speaking of God. Remember, we are attempting to use human language to explain what is unexplainable this side of the eternal dimension. There have been many attempts to create models to help us understand the unity of ‘One’ God. I suppose I am no different in this regard. However, we must acknowledge the fact that it is impossible to create a definitive model of something we cannot see. How does one reduce God to a diagram on a piece of paper?

 

[T_Laurich]

I think of it as multidimensional...
For instance, Jesus is a 4th dimension representation of God, the holy spirit is inter dimensional, and God is above all dimensions....
My spelling sucks without spell check sorry...

Idk, but from what I understand, it cannot be polytheism...
And if it is polytheistic it cannot be true.

 

[p_rehbein]

GOD THE FATHER: God OF man

GOD THE SON: God AS man

GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT: God WITHIN man

 

[mpaper345]

Here is my understanding of the Trinity/Godhead:

• God is God and the father. God is all mighty.
• Jesus is the son and second person in the Trinity. Jesus is all mighty with God.
• The Holy Spirit the third entity. The Holy Spirit is equal with God and Jesus.

I might be askew on how I presented that, so please bear with me. With those bullet points out of the way, here are my questions:

1. If God is all mighty, how can Jesus - or the Holy Spirit - be equal with Him? I.e. if three beings are all mighty, none of them are "all" mighty - right? Wouldn't they share might?
2. Father, Son, and Spirit = One God. One God = manifested in three entities. I can't wrap my head around whether this is a monotheism or a polytheism. How is Christian belief a monotheism? How is not a polytheism (or is it)?

Thanks for your time!

They say three persons in one God,that would mean it would take all three to make one God,so apart they could not be fully God.

If they say God the Father,God the Son,God the Holy Spirit,then they say three Gods.

If they are all omnipresent,then they would overlap each other.

If they are all equal in power,how is the Father greater than the Son.

If they all have no beginning then why is the Son called the Son,for Son means to be fathered,or else son has no meaning.

Why does the Old Testament call the Son,the everlasting Father.

Why was Jesus conceived of the Holy Spirit,instead of God the Son.

Why did Jesus say when He resurrects to heaven to not ask Him anything,but only ask the Father,and He will do it,but in another passage of scripture Jesus said when He resurrects to heaven to ask Him,and He will do it.

If Jesus' name is the Son,then why is it the name of the Father,and Holy Spirit too,for Jesus said He came in His Father's name,and the Son inherited the name from the Father,and the Holy Spirit comes in the name of Jesus.

Why did the Jews never get a concept of a trinity in the Old Testament,which if the Jews only had the concept of one God,the Father,and God did not rebuke them for that,and allowed the Jews to believe that He is the only God,it would of been a lie,if there were two more persons of a trinity.God the Father allowed the Jews to believe that He was the only God.

Why does the New Testament say,but to us there is but one God,the Father,and in another place,one God,the Father,only attributing the Father as God.

Why does the Bible says there is only one throne in heaven,and one who sits on the throne,if Jesus is sitting next to the Father in heaven.

Why did Jesus say if you have seen Me then you have seen the Father,for he dwells in Me,if He was conceived of the Holy Spirit.

Why does the Bible says that the Son at the right hand of God is only a temporary position,until His enemies are conquered,and then the Son will stop being at the right hand of God,for where will He go.

Why did Jesus pray to the Father for the saints to have the same glory as He had in the beginning,but if it is glory as Him being God,how can the saints have that glory.

One God,who is a Holy Spirit.Father is a title for God,and the Son is the man Christ Jesus.

Jesus is God manifest in the flesh,who is God,and has no beginning,but as a human,the Son,He has a beginning,giving meaning to the term Son.

Riddle me this,riddle me that,riddle me this,rat a tat tat.

 

[ukok102nak]

:8) as it is written
:read:
Juan: 14. 27. Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
28. Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

... . from this verses all of could that the father is greater than the son
meaning the son would be the next greater than anyone except unto the father

. ... and how about the holy spirit holy ghost
as it is written
:read:
Juan: 20. 21. Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unt
o them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

it is before our lord and savior went to heaven
and there is also a written passage about the holy spirit holy ghost
as it is written
:read:
Mga Gawa: 1. 2. Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
3. To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
4. And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Mga Taga-Efeso: 1. 13. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

this are all we know
for now

:ty:

godbless us all always

 

[God4me]

Here is my understanding of the Trinity/Godhead:

• God is God and the father. God is all mighty.
• Jesus is the son and second person in the Trinity. Jesus is all mighty with God.
• The Holy Spirit the third entity. The Holy Spirit is equal with God and Jesus.

I might be askew on how I presented that, so please bear with me. With those bullet points out of the way, here are my questions:

1. If God is all mighty, how can Jesus - or the Holy Spirit - be equal with Him? I.e. if three beings are all mighty, none of them are "all" mighty - right? Wouldn't they share might?
2. Father, Son, and Spirit = One God. One God = manifested in three entities. I can't wrap my head around whether this is a monotheism or a polytheism. How is Christian belief a monotheism? How is not a polytheism (or is it)?

Thanks for your time!

God is one God, manifested in three persons.
Gen 1: 26, God, [Elohim, Plural] said, "Let US, [Plural], make man in OUR [Plural] image after OUR, [Plural] likeness.

Jn 1: 1. The Word, [Jesus] was with God, [Theos] and the Word, [Jesus] was God, [Theos].
Acts 5: 3--4 calls the Holy Ghost, God, [Theos].

We shouldn't try to think about it with our minds, Just accept and believe the Bible, Hebrew and Greek Bible texts.

 

[wattie]

God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit is the Triune God.

To overcome any association with polytheism, I would see this as not three seperate beings, or Gods plural..

but one being.. God.. manifested/expressed in three essences or substances. I am not so comfortable calling them persons.. because it kind of seperates them.

I know the Father is not the same expression as the Son and the Holy Spirit, but they are all expressions of the one being.. God. 3 in one.

- Light when put thru a prism.. is many different shades.. of the one light. You get a rainbow of colours.. 3 base colours with different shades of them. 3 in one.

-Water-- can simultaneously be ice, steam and liquid depending on where it is. 3 in one.

-humans- are one being.. with a mind, spirit and body. 3 in one.


God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.. co-eternal.. co-equal.. eternally existing. As ONE being.

Scriptures:

Jesus calling Himself the Alpha and the Omega in Revelation. Jesus saying that 'Before Abraham was I AM'- referring to Himself as God who was speaking at the burning bush.

The Holy Spirit-- doing the same work as Jesus in giving eternal life. The Holy Spirit sealing. The Holy Spirit indwelling. Jesus saying He will be in His believers. The Father giving eternal life also.

Jesus.. having the Holy Spirit descending from the Father upon Him. I have heard scholars commentating on this..
Is this isn't something that has just happened.. as if the Holy Spirit wasn't on Jesus before..but is a snap shot of the Holy Spirit, the Father and Jesus as one.

Genesis also has near the beginning.. let US make man in OUR image. Yet this is about the one being God. How is this possible.. unless it is:

One being.. God.. in three essences/substances/expressions?

 

[Angela53510]

Here is my understanding of the Trinity/Godhead:

• God is God and the father. God is all mighty.
• Jesus is the son and second person in the Trinity. Jesus is all mighty with God.
• The Holy Spirit the third entity. The Holy Spirit is equal with God and Jesus.

I might be askew on how I presented that, so please bear with me. With those bullet points out of the way, here are my questions:

1. If God is all mighty, how can Jesus - or the Holy Spirit - be equal with Him? I.e. if three beings are all mighty, none of them are "all" mighty - right? Wouldn't they share might?
2. Father, Son, and Spirit = One God. One God = manifested in three entities. I can't wrap my head around whether this is a monotheism or a polytheism. How is Christian belief a monotheism? How is not a polytheism (or is it)?

Thanks for your time!

Point 3, regarding the Holy Spirit:
The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not "entities." That sounds like something from a bad science fiction movie!

Instead, we refer to God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as "persons." God created us in his image. Since we are "persons" God must be the original "persons" after whom we have been formed and modelled.

Bowman has a very good avatar that explains the Trinity. You might want to take a look at it in his "Is the devil bound?" Thread.

Or or read the book Old Hermit recommended. It's on my to-buy reading list.

 

[trofimus]

Here is my understanding of the Trinity/Godhead:

• God is God and the father. God is all mighty.
• Jesus is the son and second person in the Trinity. Jesus is all mighty with God.
• The Holy Spirit the third entity. The Holy Spirit is equal with God and Jesus.

I might be askew on how I presented that, so please bear with me. With those bullet points out of the way, here are my questions:

1. If God is all mighty, how can Jesus - or the Holy Spirit - be equal with Him? I.e. if three beings are all mighty, none of them are "all" mighty - right? Wouldn't they share might?
2. Father, Son, and Spirit = One God. One God = manifested in three entities. I can't wrap my head around whether this is a monotheism or a polytheism. How is Christian belief a monotheism? How is not a polytheism (or is it)?

Thanks for your time!

You got your points wrong and thats why you have problems with it.

Corrected points:

God is allmighty.

God has three persons - Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.

These three persons are equal and have the same access to the power etc.

 

[trofimus]

Here is my understanding of the Trinity/Godhead:

• God is God and the father. God is all mighty.
• Jesus is the son and second person in the Trinity. Jesus is all mighty with God.
• The Holy Spirit the third entity. The Holy Spirit is equal with God and Jesus.

I might be askew on how I presented that, so please bear with me. With those bullet points out of the way, here are my questions:

1. If God is all mighty, how can Jesus - or the Holy Spirit - be equal with Him? I.e. if three beings are all mighty, none of them are "all" mighty - right? Wouldn't they share might?
2. Father, Son, and Spirit = One God. One God = manifested in three entities. I can't wrap my head around whether this is a monotheism or a polytheism. How is Christian belief a monotheism? How is not a polytheism (or is it)?

Thanks for your time!

You actually dont think that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God, you think they are only equal with God.

Thats where you got it all messed up.

 

[disciplemike]

God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."
John 4:24 (ESV2011)

God is Spirit. I am not an expert in this, but I believe God IS the Holy Spirit.
His Son, Yeshua, is the manifest physical form of God Himself.

This is an interesting verse:

But the Spirit of the LORD came upon Gideon, and he blew a trumpet; and Abiezer was gathered after him.Judges 6:34 (KJV)

If you look in the Hebrew, it says the Spirit of YHVH put on Gideon like a garment!!!

 

[TonyJay]

God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."
John 4:24 (ESV2011)

God is Spirit. I am not an expert in this, but I believe God IS the Holy Spirit.
His Son, Yeshua, is the manifest physical form of God Himself.

This is an interesting verse:

But the Spirit of the LORD came upon Gideon, and he blew a trumpet; and Abiezer was gathered after him.Judges 6:34 (KJV)

If you look in the Hebrew, it says the Spirit of YHVH put on Gideon like a garment!!!

No you are not!
Far from it!

For the OP disregard post #12.

 

[PaulG]

I see no real way to make sense of the trinity, it is a persons ideology interpreted and created from holy scripture.

 

[trofimus]

God is Spirit. I am not an expert in this, but I believe God IS the Holy Spirit.
His Son, Yeshua, is the manifest physical form of God Himself.

You dont accept that the Son and the Father are two different persons?

Why was Jesus praying and talking to Father, if He was Him?

 

[TonyJay]

I see no real way to make sense of the trinity, it is a persons ideology interpreted and created from holy scripture.

Paul, the Trinity may indeed be difficult to understand but it is not a mere human fabrication.

There are plenty of points of doctrine which are well attested to but just as difficult to understand.
For example, we understand God to be omnipresent, in other words He is present at all points of time and space simultaneously.
For us, since we are in a timeline our sense of the present is, well, um , now - not five minutes hence or five minutes ago. However for God, those three points of time so distinct for us are His eternal present.
This does not mean, because it so difficult to comprehend the concept, that it is either wrong or just a man-made fiction.

 

[disciplemike]

You dont accept that the Son and the Father are two different persons?

Why was Jesus praying and talking to Father, if He was Him?

"Hear, O Israel: YHVH our God, YHVH is one.
Deuteronomy 6:4 (ESV2011, MBM)

I and the Father are one."
John 10:30 (ESV2011, MBM)

Now you tell me, Why was Yeshua praying to His Father?

 

[disciplemike]

Just be cautious of people who give you long explanations with no Scripture to back it up.

Also be cautious of people who give one verse and then 500 words to tell you what it said.

Study. Pray. Repeat.

 

[trofimus]

"Hear, O Israel: YHVH our God, YHVH is one.
Deuteronomy 6:4 (ESV2011, MBM)

I and the Father are one."
John 10:30 (ESV2011, MBM)

Now you tell me, Why was Yeshua praying to His Father?

Because they are two persons.

You tell me why, if you believe they are one person.

 

[disciplemike]

Because they are two persons, simply.

You tell me why, if you believe they are one person.

Brother that is Scripture that says they are One. Ask them.