The True Identity of the 144,000 of the Book of Revelation

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,162
2,380
113
#21

this doesn't really explain the list.
why is Dan excluded?
why not Manasseh & Ephraim just Manasseh? - so why is Ephraim also excluded?
why out of birth order - and not just Judah out of place, but all of them?
this is never the way that the tribes are presented, anywhere else in scripture.
i believe this is given to us this way very purposefully, because it is very peculiar.
As I said, it would not be good exegesis to conclude that just because Dan is missing or because the list of the tribes is not in birth order, to interpret the scripture other than in the literal sense. I have yet to find the reason why Dan is not included and is replaced by Mannassah. Since Dan is the only tribe missing, only one other needs to take his place. If you add both Mannassah and Ephraim to the list, then you would have thirteen tribes.

i believe this is given to us this way very purposefully, because it is very peculiar.


Remember what Jacob said to his son Joseph?:

"Now then, your two sons born to you in Egypt before I came to you here will be reckoned as mine; Ephraim and Manasseh will be mine, just as Reuben and Simeon are mine."

What expositors have done and do, is they take into consideration the issues that you have mentioned and then they invent a whole teaching based on those reasons, which is by pure conjecture. Because of these false conclusions, the 144,000 isn't the number given and those in white robes are not the great tribulation saints and they merge the two groups together, ignoring the scriptural distinction made between the two.
 
Jul 23, 2015
1,950
7
0
#22
:whistle: we are very greatful unto you Ahwatukee
for bringing this verses unto all
and unto all let us all keep moving unto what is good
and cannot lie
with his only begotten son our lord and savior
along with all that is holy

:ty:

godbless us all always
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,162
2,380
113
#23
The problem with your theory, is, After John mentions the 144.000, he said,
After this HE beheld and saw
[1]great multitude
[2]THAT NO MAN COULD NUMBER, [He could number the 144.000].
[3]From ALL nations, [Whereas the 144.000 are all Jewish male virgins].


It's amazing that every time the Bible prove people wrong, they says it's, "Figurative, or symbolic".
I agree God4Me. One of the biggest problems with many expositors is interpreting information that is meant to be received literally and symbolizing it. By doing so, it distorts the whole meaning.
 
Jul 23, 2015
1,950
7
0
#24
:rofl: hey :whistle: how come your lips is not even moving
while you were sleeping but theres a sound coming out from
your mouth
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,635
13,119
113
#25
Hello Posthuman..
I see the multitude that no one could number and the 144,000 as different groups because the one that cannot be numbered cannot be numbered and the 144,000 are numbered..

hello & thank you . .

but the 144,000 is what John hears, and he immediately sees a great multitude. he does not see 144,000.

isn't it like when he sees the New Jerusalem: he hears that he will be shown the Wife of the Lamb -- and he sees a city?
the city is the Bride of Christ, though the vision isn't what he hears.

and later in chapter 14, when he hears the 144,000 singing a song that only they can sing, he then sees an angel ((a messenger)) with an eternal gospel to proclaim, who admonishes to fear and worship God alone.
and another proclaiming that Babylon is fallen.
and another proclaiming that anyone who commits idolatry will be condemned.
then in chapter 15, we read of "
those who have conquered the beast & its image & the number of its name" singing the 'song of Moses' ((which is not the song of Moses that we know from the OT)) which says, "Your righteous acts have been revealed" -- which is also called the song of the Lamb.
who can sing that the righteous acts of the Lamb has been revealed, except those to whom the righteous acts of the Lamb have been revealed to? ((which is us)) -- i.e. is this the song?

also there in chapter 14, it is said that these 144,000 are the firstfruits for God -- which James 1:18 & says that we are, doesn't it?


see, i consider these things, but i don't know whether i understand them.
all the same, it has been making sense to me that these are the same, and that they are the very ones who have been sealed by God: those who have received the Spirit, which is to say, '
the firstfruits of the Spirit' ((re: Romans 8:23))

which might be wrong.

but just the fact that these are numbered doesn't make me think that they can't be the multitude who cannot be counted. as far as i do understand, 1,000 in this book means 'a great number' and isn't a literal thousand. and that 12 is representative of the fullness of the people of God. so i am not convinced either that a 'millennial reign' should be exactly 1,000 years -- but a long time. likewise i also am of the opinion that when the Almighty told Elijah He had reserved to Himself 7,000 who had not bowed to Ba'al, what He is saying is not literally exactly 7,000 but a large, complete, perfect number -- that is, 7 (complete, perfect) times 1,000 (a large number).

again, maybe i'm wrong.

maybe i should just stick to the gospel haha :)
what Christ has done, and who He is, i am certain of -
- so i sing,
"Your righteous acts have been revealed!!"






 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,635
13,119
113
#26
the scriptural distinction made between the two.
but ((well, clearly, by now, i guess)) i'm not so convinced that the scripture makes such a distinction between the two -- because immediately after John hears about the number sealed, he sees the great multitude. & the number given is nothing like the numbers given in the book of Numbers -- this seems to me to be an obviously symbolic measure. . ?

& the list of tribes here - well there is certainly a reason that expositors try to draw conclusions from this list, and that's because this list is singular, and compared to every other time in the scripture that the sons of Jacob are listed, this is quite unique.

do you think it does not mean anything, that this list is precisely the list that is given, and in precisely the order that it is given?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,635
13,119
113
#28
i'm not familiar with 'what expositors say' or come up with.

except inasmuch as in this thread, you guys are expositing :)
((& i guess i am too -- but again, i am confessing that i am ignorant of all this & not dogmatic -- others speak as though with knowledge & authority))

i usually start to read these threads, see people arguing who both seem to have good reasons, and don't really comprehend all of it, and stop reading. i'm not exactly sure, honestly, why this time i'm engaging -- or why over the last month i've been starting to be convinced that these are the same. i don't read a bunch of eschatological books or listen to sermons about it. like, basically none. i'm ignorant.

*shrug*

prolly y'all are thinking "
well that's Satan tryin-a getcha, post"
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,635
13,119
113
#29
gotta go to sleep. will catch up on this thread later --

thank you, sincerely.
 
Jul 23, 2015
1,950
7
0
#30
:8) not to mention that in baptism of water
everyone is been baptize by the name of the father and of the son
and of the holy spirit
giving a figurative numbers such as three in a seperate ... .
 
Jul 23, 2015
1,950
7
0
#32
:8) not to mention that in baptism of water
everyone is been baptize by the name of the father and of the son
and of the holy spirit
giving a figurative numbers such as three in a seperate ... .
:rofl: indeed my brethren :8)
even most us of could only count from one to ten
and even i couldnt configure how is that possible
 
Jul 23, 2015
1,950
7
0
#33
:rofl: indeed my brethren :8)
even most us of could only count from one to ten
and even i couldnt configure how is that possible
:8) perhaps you :rofl: should stop joking and also tell :whistle:
to keep moving because the elders are waiting there
 
Jul 23, 2015
1,950
7
0
#34
: : is there anyone here who is familiar with this .. . .
as it is written
:read:
1. 0. [A Prologue made by an uncertain Author] This Jesus was the son of Sirach, and grandchild to Jesus of the same name with him: this man therefore lived in the latter times, after the people had been led away captive, and called home a again, and almost after all the prophets. Now his grandfather Jesus, as he himself witnesseth, was a man of great diligence and wisdom among the Hebrews, who did not only gather the grave and short sentences of wise men, that had been before him, but himself also uttered some of his own, full of much understanding and wisdom. When as therefore the first Jesus died, leaving this book almost perfected, Sirach his son receiving it after him left it to his own son Jesus, who, having gotten it into his hands, compiled it all orderly into one volume, and called it Wisdom, intituling it both by his own name, his father's name, and his grandfather's; alluring the hearer by the very name of Wisdom to have a greater love to the study of this book. It containeth therefore wise sayings, dark sentences, and parables, and certain particular ancient godly stories of men that pleased God; also his prayer and song; moreover, what benefits God had vouchsafed his people, and what plagues he had heaped upon their enemies. This Jesus did imitate Solomon, and was no less famous for wisdom and learning, both being indeed a man of great learning, and so reputed also. [The Prologue of the Wisdom of Jesus the Son of Sirach.] Whereas many and great things have been delivered unto us by the law and the prophets, and by others that have followed their steps, for the which things Israel ought to be commended for learning and wisdom; and whereof not only the readers must needs become skilful themselves, but also they that desire to learn be able to profit them which are without, both by speaking and writing: my grandfather Jesus, when he had much given himself to the reading of the law, and the prophets, and other books of our fathers, and had gotten therein good judgment, was drawn on also himself to write something pertaining to learning and wisdom; to the intent that those which are desirous to learn, and are addicted to these things, might profit much more in living according to the law. Wherefore let me intreat you to read it with favour and attention, and to pardon us, wherein we may seem to come short of some words, which we have laboured to interpret. For the same things uttered in Hebrew, and translated into another tongue, have not the same force in them: and not only these things, but the law itself, and the prophets, and the rest of the books, have no small difference, when they are spoken in their own language. For in the eight and thirtieth year coming into Egypt, when Euergetes was king, and continuing there some time, I found a book of no small learning: therefore I thought it most necessary for me to bestow some diligence and travail to interpret it; using great watchfulness and skill in that space to bring the book to an end, and set it forth for them also, which in a strange country are willing to learn, being prepared before in manners to live after the law.
1. All wisdom cometh from the Lord, and is with him for ever.
2. Who can number the sand of the sea, and the drops of rain, and the days of eternity?
3. Who can find out the height of heaven, and the breadth of the earth, and the deep, and wisdom?
4. Wisdom hath been created before all things, and the understanding of prudence from everlasting.
5. The word of God most high is the fountain of wisdom; and her ways are everlasting commandments.
6. To whom hath the root of wisdom been revealed? or who hath known her wise counsels?
7. [Unto whom hath the knowledge of wisdom been made manifest? and who hath understood her great experience?]
8. There is one wise and greatly to be feared, the Lord sitting upon his throne.
9. He created her, and saw her, and numbered her, and poured her out upon all his works.
10. She is with all flesh according to his gift, and he hath given her to them that love him.
11. The fear of the Lord is honour, and glory, and gladness, and a crown of rejoicing.
12. The fear of the Lord maketh a merry heart, and giveth joy, and gladness, and a long life.
13. Whoso feareth the Lord, it shall go well with him at the last, and he shall find favour in the day of his death.
14. To fear the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: and it was created with the faithful in the womb.
15. She hath built an everlasting foundation with men, and she shall continue with their seed.
16. To fear the Lord is fulness of wisdom, and filleth men with her fruits.
17. She filleth all their house with things desirable, and the garners with her increase.
18. The fear of the Lord is a crown of wisdom, making peace and perfect health to flourish; both which are the gifts of God: and it enlargeth their rejoicing that love him.
19. Wisdom raineth down skill and knowledge of understanding standing, and exalteth them to honour that hold her fast.
20. The root of wisdom is to fear the Lord, and the branches thereof are long life.
21. The fear of the Lord driveth away sins: and where it is present, it turneth away wrath.
22. A furious man cannot be justified; for the sway of his fury shall be his destruction.
23. A patient man will tear for a time, and afterward joy shall spring up unto him.
24. He will hide his words for a time, and the lips of many shall declare his wisdom.
25. The parables of knowledge are in the treasures of wisdom: but godliness is an abomination to a sinner.
26. If thou desire wisdom, keep the commandments, and the Lord shall give her unto thee.
27. For the fear of the Lord is wisdom and instruction: and faith and meekness are his delight.
28. Distrust not the fear of the Lord when thou art poor: and come not unto him with a double heart.
29. Be not an hypocrite in the sight of men, and take good heed what thou speakest.
30. Exalt not thyself, lest thou fall, and bring dishonour upon thy soul, and so God discover thy secrets, and cast thee down in the midst of the congregation, because thou camest not in truth to the fear of the Lord, but thy heart is full of deceit.

just askin
hope we are not offending anyone here

:ty:

godbless us all always
 
May 26, 2016
828
7
0
#35
but ((well, clearly, by now, i guess)) i'm not so convinced that the scripture makes such a distinction between the two -- because immediately after John hears about the number sealed, he sees the great multitude. & the number given is nothing like the numbers given in the book of Numbers -- this seems to me to be an obviously symbolic measure. . ?

& the list of tribes here - well there is certainly a reason that expositors try to draw conclusions from this list, and that's because this list is singular, and compared to every other time in the scripture that the sons of Jacob are listed, this is quite unique.

do you think it does not mean anything, that this list is precisely the list that is given, and in precisely the order that it is given?



The problem with your theory, is, After John mentions the 144.000, he said,
After this HE beheld and saw
[1]great multitude
[2]THAT NO MAN COULD NUMBER, [He could number the 144.000].
[3]From ALL nations, [Whereas the 144.000 are all Jewish male virgins].


It's amazing that every time the Bible prove people wrong, they says it's, "Figurative, or symbolic".
 
Jul 23, 2015
1,950
7
0
#36
:smoke: what the
hey : :
what is beneath in those clouds that is in upper void of space within
 
Jul 23, 2015
1,950
7
0
#37
: : dont you worry :smoke:
lets us be the those servants who wants to serves
and not to be great in the minds of humans
as what you've said before unto all even unto the elders
 
Jul 23, 2015
1,950
7
0
#40
:smoke: indeed as it is written my brethren : :
indeed