The True Identity of the 144,000 of the Book of Revelation

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Jul 15, 2016
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#1
The book of Revelation first mentions 144,000 who are sealed here,
Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel. (Revelation 7:4 [NIV])
These 144,000 are also said to be redeemed from the earth,
And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. (Revelation 14:3 [NIV])
And they are said to be first fruits and follow Jesus Christ wherever he goes,
These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. (Revelation 7:4 [NIV])
So who are the 144,000 of all the tribes of Israel? The 144,000 are all the chosen that belong to Jesus Christ at his second coming, as these are first gathered to him at his second coming, and thus they will always follow be with the Lord wherever he goes,
Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:7 [ESV])
And the chosen are also said to be first fruits,
He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created. (James 1:18 [ESV])
And the chosen are also redeemed,
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace (Ephesians 1:7 [NIV])
And the chosen have also been purchased,
for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body. (1 Corinthians 6:20 [ESV])
And thus the chosen will be as virgins at the resurrection of the second coming, as they will not marry nor be given into marriage, thus not "defiling themselves with women",
At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. (Matthew 22:30 [ESV])
And all who are chosen are grafted into the olive tree of Israel, to thus be accounted into one of the tribes of Israel,
After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree! I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. (Romans 11:24-26 [NIV])
And the chosen are the remnant of the 144,000 also mentioned here, who are also chosen before the foundation of the world,
So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. (Romans 11:5 [NIV])
even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love (Ephesians 1:4 [ESV])
And as such, although many are certainly called, only a small remnant of 144,000 are chosen,
"For many are invited, but few are chosen." (Matthew 22:14 [NIV])
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,530
13,098
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#2
i believe the 144,000 are the great multitude, which no one can number, from every tribe, nation and tongue. ((this is encouragement: the Lord has reserved for Himself many more than we commonly think, like the 7,000 Elijah had no knowledge of)).
they are all who are sealed by God -- re: Ephesians chapter 1


John heard the number
then John saw the multitude.

an elder told him who they ((the multitude he saw, after having heard of those who were sealed) are -- those who come out of tribulation, and have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb. who are sheltered by His presence. who will never again hunger or thirst. who are shepherded by the Lamb. who are led to springs of Living Water.

the list of 12 'tribes' here in Revelation 7 is not repeated in this order or in this configuration anywhere else in all of scripture. there are several indications from the list itself that make it clear that it is a figurative thing, signifying the fullness of the people of God: not literally 144,000 ethnic Jews. what John hears, is what John sees - but what he hears is a different perspective from what he sees, though they are the same thing. this is the repeated pattern all throughout this book.

the 144,000 = the great multitude = all who are sealed by the Spirit, the gift of God & earnest of our inheritance in Him.
 
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Jul 15, 2016
202
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#3
i believe the 144,000 are the great multitude.
they are all who are sealed by God -- re: Ephesians chapter 1


John heard the number
then John saw the multitude.

an elder told him who they ((the multitude he saw, after having heard of those who were sealed) are -- those who come out of tribulation, and have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb. who are sheltered by His presence. who will never again hunger or thirst. who are shepherded by the Lamb. who are led to springs of Living Water.

the list of 12 'tribes' here in Revelation 7 is not repeated in this order or in this configuration anywhere else in all of scripture. there are several indications from the list itself that make it clear that it is a figurative thing: not literally 144,000 ethnic Jews. what John hears, is what John sees - but what he hears is a different perspective from what he sees, though they are the same thing. this is the repeated pattern all throughout this book.

the 144,000 = the great multitude = all who are sealed by the Spirit, the gift of God & earnest of our inheritance in Him.
The great multitude are those who survive the devastation to come upon the earth during the second coming, and live into the millennial kingdom of the Lord and the 144,000 on the earth. There will also be those that will be born during this time and will be accounted into the great multitude, that dip their robes in the blood of the lamb during the millennial kingdom, as the earth will be filled with righteousness. So there are essentially two batches, the 144,000, and the great multitude that comes after the second coming, as the Lord and the 144,000 will live on the earth and reign over those who are still in mortal bodies.
 
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Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,162
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#4
Good evening pappq,

And thus the chosen will be as virgins at the resurrection of the second coming, as they will not marry nor be given into marriage, thus not "defiling themselves with women"


The above is not inferring that by being married that they would be defiling themselves. If that were true, then you would be saying that everyone who is married would be defiled. Regarding this, scripture states that the marriage bed is undefiled (Heb.13:4). What the verse is saying is that these 144,000 will not have ever been sexually immoral.

And all who are chosen are grafted into the olive tree of Israel, to thus be accounted into one of the tribes of Israel,


This group of 144,000 do not need to be grafted into Israel and that because they are already Israel. The woman, who is unbelieving Israel, gives birth to these 144,000 who will be 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes mentioned, who will recognize that Jesus is their Messiah. This group is not the church, but are the first fruits to God out of the nation Israel who believe that Jesus is their Messiah. The male child of Rev.12:5 is a collective name for this group of a 144,000 who will be caught up to God and His throne in the middle of the seven year period. The woman/Israel who gives birth them will flee out into the desert to that place prepared for her by God and will be cared for that last 3 1/2 until Christ returns. (Mt.24:15-21, Rev.12:6,14).


 
Jul 15, 2016
202
2
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#5
Good evening pappq,



The above is not inferring that by being married that they would be defiling themselves. If that were true, then you would be saying that everyone who is married would be defiled. Regarding this, scripture states that the marriage bed is undefiled. What the verse is saying is that these 144,000 will not have ever been sexually immoral.



This group of 144,000 do not need to be grafted into Israel and that because they are already Israel. The woman, who is unbelieving Israel, gives birth to these 144,000 who will be 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes mentioned, who will recognize that Jesus is their Messiah. This group is not the church, but are the first fruits to God out of the nation Israel who believe that Jesus is their Messiah. The male child of Rev.12:5 is a collective name for this group of a 144,000 who will be caught up to God and His throne in the middle of the seven year period. The woman/Israel who gives birth them will flee out into the desert to that place prepared for her by God and will be cared for that last 3 1/2 until Christ returns. (Mt.24:15-21, Rev.12:6,14).


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Those of the resurrection of the just are as angels, so being as angels they would be defiling themselves if they married women.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,530
13,098
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#6
The great multitude are those who survive the devastation to come upon the earth during the second coming, and live into the millennial kingdom of the Lord and the 144,000 on the earth. There will also be those that will be born during this time and will be accounted into the great multitude, that dip their robes in the blood of the lamb during the millennial kingdom, as the earth will be filled with righteousness. So there are essentially two batches, the 144,000, and the great multitude that comes after.

all my life i've shied away from eschatology, knowing that i do not comprehend it, and not wishing to speak presumptuously. i still confess i am ignorant, and much of what i think i understand, i could surely be wrong about.

but i'm becoming convinced that the great multitude is all who are saved -- all of us who have put our trust in God, and who have been washed by the blood of the Lamb. and that this multitude and the 144,000 are one and the same: it's the pattern of Revelation that John hears a thing, and sees a thing, the same thing - but what he hears and what he sees are different, symbolic facets of the very same thing. & comprehending the significance of the list of 'tribes' given here ((because it really is a very 'strange' list with respect to the rest of scripture)), this is made all the more clear to me.

perhaps i'm wrong. but it makes sense to me. more sense than any other interpretation ever has.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,530
13,098
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#7
What the verse is saying is that these 144,000 will not have ever been sexually immoral.

what if this 'virginity' is referring to not having defiled themselves with a particular woman -- the one riding on the beast, who prostitutes herself and is the mother of idolatry?

look: Dan is not in the list of tribes. why not?
didn't Dan introduce idolatry to the nation, and lead the 10 tribes astray with it?

this seems to me to fit. the people of God are those who have kept themselves from idolatry - so they bear the mark of the Lord, not of the beast ((which commands that it be worshiped)).

((again, i'm ignorant & not dogmatic. but that the 144,000 = the multitude = all believers makes sense to me. i've not even explored all the implications of that, though i bet those implications butts heads with several common established views of eschatology. which i don't nec. mind doing))

((which is to say -- please forgive my ignorance, & possibly foolishness))
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,530
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#8
i'd actually like to hear what you all think about the list of tribes given here -- because it is very strange, not being in birth order, excluding Dan, including Levi, including Joseph and including Manasseh, but not Ephraim . . .

to hear from everyone who has some understanding about this, if you could :)

i think it is probably "key" to understanding what John hears & sees here in chapter 7, to understand what this list is

thanks
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,162
2,380
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#9
Hi posthuman,

i believe the 144,000 are the great multitude, which no one can number, from every tribe, nation and tongue. ((this is encouragement: the Lord has reserved for Himself many more than we commonly think, like the 7,000 Elijah had no knowledge of)). they are all who are sealed by God -- re: Ephesians chapter 1


I am surprised at what you wrote. The scriptures make it clear that two separate groups are being introduced in Rev.7. From Rev.7:1-8 we are introduced to 144,000 from the twelve tribes of literal Israel. Then, from Rev.7:9-17 we are introduced to another group which is too great to count, which come out of every nation, tribe, people and language, which means that they are from all of the Gentile nations. God is distinguishing between 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel and opposed to a number to great to count from the Gentiles.

The error here is the spiritualizing of the number of 144,000, as well as spiritualizing Israel. Furthermore, there is nothing in the scripture that would lead the reader to anything other than a literal interpretation of both groups.

144,000 = Twelve thousand from each of the twelve tribes of Israel as listed

The Great Multitude = Gentiles who become believers in Christ during that last seven years
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,530
13,098
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#10
John writes that he was in the Spirit when he saw and heard all these things.
so the only way to take Revelation literally is to take it figuratively -- because it literally says that it is figurative. ;)
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,162
2,380
113
#11
i'd actually like to hear what you all think about the list of tribes given here -- because it is very strange, not being in birth order, excluding Dan, including Levi, including Joseph and including Manasseh, but not Ephraim . . .

to hear from everyone who has some understanding about this, if you could :)

i think it is probably "key" to understanding what John hears & sees here in chapter 7, to understand what this list is

thanks
[/QUOTE

First of all, I would say that the list of the tribes not being in birth order and Dan not being included, does not constitute this group as not being true Israel. Manasseh is replacing Dan in the line up, which was all that was required, otherwise there would not be twelve tribes, but thirteen. My question is, why not believe what is literally written in regards to the identity given for each group, as well as their numbers?
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
7,417
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#12
Hello Posthuman..
I see the multitude that no one could number and the 144,000 as different groups because the one that cannot be numbered cannot be numbered and the 144,000 are numbered..

The 144,000 are identified as 12,000 innocents from each of the 12 tribes of Israel..


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
May 26, 2016
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#13
The book of Revelation first mentions 144,000 who are sealed here,

These 144,000 are also said to be redeemed from the earth,

And they are said to be first fruits and follow Jesus Christ wherever he goes,

So who are the 144,000 of all the tribes of Israel? The 144,000 are all the chosen that belong to Jesus Christ at his second coming, as these are first gathered to him at his second coming, and thus they will always follow be with the Lord wherever he goes,

And the chosen are also said to be first fruits,

And the chosen are also redeemed,

And the chosen have also been purchased,

And thus the chosen will be as virgins at the resurrection of the second coming, as they will not marry nor be given into marriage, thus not "defiling themselves with women",

And all who are chosen are grafted into the olive tree of Israel, to thus be accounted into one of the tribes of Israel,

And the chosen are the remnant of the 144,000 also mentioned here, who are also chosen before the foundation of the world,


And as such, although many are certainly called, only a small remnant of 144,000 are chosen,




The 144.000 are all Jewish male virgins, Rev 7: 3--8. Rev 14: 1--4. who come in the great tribulation period, and they get raptured during the tribulation period, Rev 14: 1--3.
They have nothing to do with the Church age.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,162
2,380
113
#14
John writes that he was in the Spirit when he saw and heard all these things.
so the only way to take Revelation literally is to take it figuratively -- because it literally says that it is figurative. ;)
John is in the spirit from Rev.4 onward, but that does not mean that what he is seeing and hearing are to not be taken in their literal sense. Symbolism should only be used when it is obvious. One of the major problems with expositors is that they come into Revelation with the idea that everything is symbolic, which is the wrong way to approach this book. A dragon with seven heads and ten horns, that requires a symbolic interpretation. A woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars, that is symbolism. Everything should be taken literally unless a symbolic interpretation is required. The symbolizing of literal information has been a major error when interpreting the book of Revelation. Once this is done, then the true meaning is distorted.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,530
13,098
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#15
First of all, I would say that the list of the tribes not being in birth order and Dan not being included, does not constitute this group as not being true Israel. Manasseh is replacing Dan in the line up, which was all that was required, otherwise there would not be twelve tribes, but thirteen.

this doesn't really explain the list.
why is Dan excluded?
why not Manasseh & Ephraim just Manasseh? - so why is Ephraim also excluded?
why out of birth order - and not just Judah out of place, but all of them?
this is never the way that the tribes are presented, anywhere else in scripture.
i believe this is given to us this way very purposefully, because it is very peculiar.
 
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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,530
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#16
i'd actually like to hear what you all think about the list of tribes given here -- because it is very strange, not being in birth order, excluding Dan, including Levi, including Joseph and including Manasseh, but not Ephraim . . .
excuse me, Joseph is not in the list.
but he would be, if we were listing sons of Jacob, and Manasseh would not be.
but whenever Manasseh is listed, so is Ephraim, indicating inheritance
in which case Levi would not be listed. and Dan would be.
& other than here, the tribes are always given in birth order, unless Judah is given preeminence pointing to Christ springing from him. but then the rest of the sons are given in order. but they are not.

it's odd.

forgive me about Joseph tho, doh!
 
Jul 23, 2015
1,950
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#17
The great multitude are those who survive the devastation to come upon the earth during the second coming, and live into the millennial kingdom of the Lord and the 144,000 on the earth. There will also be those that will be born during this time and will be accounted into the great multitude, that dip their robes in the blood of the lamb during the millennial kingdom, as the earth will be filled with righteousness. So there are essentially two batches, the 144,000, and the great multitude that comes after the second coming, as the Lord and the 144,000 will live on the earth and reign over those who are still in mortal bodies.
:8) indeed my brethren brothers sisters
and unto all indeed
 
Jul 23, 2015
1,950
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#18
Hello Posthuman..
I see the multitude that no one could number and the 144,000 as different groups because the one that cannot be numbered cannot be numbered and the 144,000 are numbered..

The 144,000 are identified as 12,000 innocents from each of the 12 tribes of Israel..


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
:hrmm: indeed my brethren brothers sisters
and unto all

:ty:

godbless us all always
 
May 26, 2016
828
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#19
i believe the 144,000 are the great multitude, which no one can number, from every tribe, nation and tongue. ((this is encouragement: the Lord has reserved for Himself many more than we commonly think, like the 7,000 Elijah had no knowledge of)).
they are all who are sealed by God -- re: Ephesians chapter 1


John heard the number
then John saw the multitude.

an elder told him who they ((the multitude he saw, after having heard of those who were sealed) are -- those who come out of tribulation, and have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb. who are sheltered by His presence. who will never again hunger or thirst. who are shepherded by the Lamb. who are led to springs of Living Water.

the list of 12 'tribes' here in Revelation 7 is not repeated in this order or in this configuration anywhere else in all of scripture. there are several indications from the list itself that make it clear that it is a figurative thing, signifying the fullness of the people of God: not literally 144,000 ethnic Jews. what John hears, is what John sees - but what he hears is a different perspective from what he sees, though they are the same thing. this is the repeated pattern all throughout this book.

the 144,000 = the great multitude = all who are sealed by the Spirit, the gift of God & earnest of our inheritance in Him.


The problem with your theory, is, After John mentions the 144.000, he said,
After this HE beheld and saw
[1]great multitude
[2]THAT NO MAN COULD NUMBER, [He could number the 144.000].
[3]From ALL nations, [Whereas the 144.000 are all Jewish male virgins].


It's amazing that every time the Bible prove people wrong, they says it's, "Figurative, or symbolic".
 
Jul 23, 2015
1,950
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#20
John writes that he was in the Spirit when he saw and heard all these things.
so the only way to take Revelation literally is to take it figuratively -- because it literally says that it is figurative. ;)
:happy: indeed my brethren my brother
sisters and unto all indeed
for those figures were literally numbered
and those who cant be counted literally were figuratively configured
as multitude
as it is written
:read:
Pahayag: 7. 9. After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10. And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

:ty:
.godbless us all always