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There are actually two kinds of tongues. In 1 Cor 14 Paul talks about the difference between public and private tongues, ie Prophecy and what we call a personal 'prayer language'. A prophetic tongue usually occurs in an assembly and requires interpretation. At Pentecost it was those who heard them speaking in their own languages who were the interpreters.
But not all tongues in the Bible were so accompanied, nor does Paul ever say they have to be - just when they are in public. Paul also talks about a private tongue, what some call a prayer language. What would be the purpose of a 'prayer language' tongue? The Bible says there is power in the spoken word. Say you are praying for someone, but you don't know everything about their situation. If you knew all the details you could bring those to God, but you don't so you can't. But the Holy Spirit knows them. So if you allow the Holy Spirit to pray thru you, you may speak to the mysteries unknown to you. Likewise, suppose something's going down somewhere and the Holy Spirit needs someone to intercede in prayer over it. You'd pray over it, if you knew, but how are you going to know? The Holy Spirit knows, and by allowing the Spirit to pray thru us we may intercede in things we know nothing about.
It helps to know the origin of 'tongues'. As man's numbers grew after creation he had a single spiritual language. It was one of the few things he kept out of the fall, and it persisted until the tower of Babel (Gen 11:1 – 8). When the Messiah/Christ returns to restore all that man has lost, one of those things restored will be that pure singular spiritual language (Zeph 3:9). Christ has won the authority to restore all things, but has yet to return to this world to enforce it. Tongues are a way for us to access that future restored language now, thru the Holy Spirit, so that we may enforce His authority for Him in the here and now.
Where it talks about tongues 'ceasing' (1 Cor 13:8-10 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.), it's not that the tongue will stop, but it will cease to be known as a tongue. Remember that lost the single spiritual language will be restored when Christ returns, and at that point it will be our native language. English (French, German whatever) would then be known as the tongue, since they would be the 'outsider' languages. Until Christ returns to bring restoration to the here and now, completeness is yet to come, perfection is yet to come, not in the heavenlies but here on earth. And so the gifts end when Christ returns and brings His perfect completeness to us, because at that point they become moot. For example, we won’t need the gift of healing any more, when people aren’t getting sick anymore.
Tongues are not necessary for salvation, nor should it be demanded as proof of Spiritual Baptism. Prophecy is given to those called for it. But the gifts of the Spirit are available to all and not required of any... although Paul wished that we all would do so. And God does talk about those who hide their lights under bushels (Mark 4:21, Matt 5:15, Luke 11:33), and bury their talents in the ground (Matt 25:14-28). The gifts, while not required, are effective in helping produce the fruit of the Spirit, which are required. Let me propose that again, the gifts of the Spirit are intended to help us produce the fruits of the Spirit. This includes discerningly placed tongues.
Given a good thing, we humans will find some way to screw it up. We will over-use, over-sell, and over-the-top it. That's just our nature. Too, satan will do all he can to muddy the waters. That's when outsiders start thinking we're crazy, and that's where Paul tells some to put a leash on it. Place and moderation are key to tongues being useful vs being foolish. Being foolish with God’s gifts is never a good idea.
And that foolishness includes denying them.
But not all tongues in the Bible were so accompanied, nor does Paul ever say they have to be - just when they are in public. Paul also talks about a private tongue, what some call a prayer language. What would be the purpose of a 'prayer language' tongue? The Bible says there is power in the spoken word. Say you are praying for someone, but you don't know everything about their situation. If you knew all the details you could bring those to God, but you don't so you can't. But the Holy Spirit knows them. So if you allow the Holy Spirit to pray thru you, you may speak to the mysteries unknown to you. Likewise, suppose something's going down somewhere and the Holy Spirit needs someone to intercede in prayer over it. You'd pray over it, if you knew, but how are you going to know? The Holy Spirit knows, and by allowing the Spirit to pray thru us we may intercede in things we know nothing about.
It helps to know the origin of 'tongues'. As man's numbers grew after creation he had a single spiritual language. It was one of the few things he kept out of the fall, and it persisted until the tower of Babel (Gen 11:1 – 8). When the Messiah/Christ returns to restore all that man has lost, one of those things restored will be that pure singular spiritual language (Zeph 3:9). Christ has won the authority to restore all things, but has yet to return to this world to enforce it. Tongues are a way for us to access that future restored language now, thru the Holy Spirit, so that we may enforce His authority for Him in the here and now.
Where it talks about tongues 'ceasing' (1 Cor 13:8-10 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.), it's not that the tongue will stop, but it will cease to be known as a tongue. Remember that lost the single spiritual language will be restored when Christ returns, and at that point it will be our native language. English (French, German whatever) would then be known as the tongue, since they would be the 'outsider' languages. Until Christ returns to bring restoration to the here and now, completeness is yet to come, perfection is yet to come, not in the heavenlies but here on earth. And so the gifts end when Christ returns and brings His perfect completeness to us, because at that point they become moot. For example, we won’t need the gift of healing any more, when people aren’t getting sick anymore.
Tongues are not necessary for salvation, nor should it be demanded as proof of Spiritual Baptism. Prophecy is given to those called for it. But the gifts of the Spirit are available to all and not required of any... although Paul wished that we all would do so. And God does talk about those who hide their lights under bushels (Mark 4:21, Matt 5:15, Luke 11:33), and bury their talents in the ground (Matt 25:14-28). The gifts, while not required, are effective in helping produce the fruit of the Spirit, which are required. Let me propose that again, the gifts of the Spirit are intended to help us produce the fruits of the Spirit. This includes discerningly placed tongues.
Given a good thing, we humans will find some way to screw it up. We will over-use, over-sell, and over-the-top it. That's just our nature. Too, satan will do all he can to muddy the waters. That's when outsiders start thinking we're crazy, and that's where Paul tells some to put a leash on it. Place and moderation are key to tongues being useful vs being foolish. Being foolish with God’s gifts is never a good idea.
And that foolishness includes denying them.
You want to have it both ways. You lack sufficient conviction to take a stand on Gods word.
You have just demonstrated that you will say whatever you think your audience wants to hear.
As I recall you are in a position of leadership in the church and that is why I am disturbed by your equivocation.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
You have just demonstrated that you will say whatever you think your audience wants to hear.
As I recall you are in a position of leadership in the church and that is why I am disturbed by your equivocation.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
I honestly have no idea where you're getting this from.
Let's review my statements....
1) They still exist today.
2) Although I've never been exposed to them.
3) If there's isn't a Biblical order to speaking in tongues, it isn't legitimate.
4) My relationship with God is not lacking because I've never spoken in tongues.
5) Each Believer is given the spiritual gifts they need.
Which ones disturb you?
Let's review my statements....1) They still exist today.
2) Although I've never been exposed to them.
3) If there's isn't a Biblical order to speaking in tongues, it isn't legitimate.
4) My relationship with God is not lacking because I've never spoken in tongues.
5) Each Believer is given the spiritual gifts they need.
Which ones disturb you?
L
people need to remember, that Paul corrected the use of tongues and also said do not forbid speaking in tongues
most experts in this thread, have never spoken in tongues
I know that because it's always the same cast of characters slamming tongues in every and any thread on the subject
tongues and the casting out of demons are also BOTH signs
I believe tongues are for everyone. period
the other gifts are not for everyone
the Bible indicates that it is God who decides who gets what gift
the problem is, there are myriads of junior wanna be whatevers running around...from teacher, to prophet to 'healers' who have proclaimed their 'gift(s)' and they have never been given their particular self-proclaimed gift from God
the church is full of 'em
the internet is full of 'em
and they come and go on this forum like night and day
since it seems far too many people are far too willing to just accept what someone says because they think they are a Christian, the mess is not likely to get any better until judgement day
Tell me, if the Holy Spirit is guiding your tongues through your spirit to the Father, how is it these tongues are in vain? You are praying the perfect will of God in perfect faith. You don't have any understanding and thats a good thing because your head isn't in the way and there is no doubt to the prayer. So, its in perfect faith.
How can you possibly think that there is no edification when the Holy Spirit of the Lord is guiding your prayers? Even if you don't understand it, something is taking place. Your spirit is speaking to the Father, regardless of your ability to interpret or understand what is being said. There are times at which you do get a glimpse of what is being said though, but not always.
People have a lot to say about tongues of which they have not partaken. So they are speaking out of ignorance and bias, even diminishing its importance in fellowship with the Lord. They are speaking of what they do not know, and are impartial to it because they do not understand. This is sad, because they offend believers who operate in this gift that the Holy Spirit gave them for their edification and the edification of others.
Your statement is true in reference to you and tongues. "You cannot be edified by something you don't understand." If you'd listen to what people are saying about tongues and the blessings it has had on their life, then you will be edified. Lifted up and understand that God is working through believers speaking mysteries in the spirit to cause things to come to pass. VVhether is be present blessings, future protection, or sanctification the Lord is orchestrating it.
PS: This is only one aspect of tongues, tongues are not one dimensional.
How can you possibly think that there is no edification when the Holy Spirit of the Lord is guiding your prayers? Even if you don't understand it, something is taking place. Your spirit is speaking to the Father, regardless of your ability to interpret or understand what is being said. There are times at which you do get a glimpse of what is being said though, but not always.
People have a lot to say about tongues of which they have not partaken. So they are speaking out of ignorance and bias, even diminishing its importance in fellowship with the Lord. They are speaking of what they do not know, and are impartial to it because they do not understand. This is sad, because they offend believers who operate in this gift that the Holy Spirit gave them for their edification and the edification of others.
Your statement is true in reference to you and tongues. "You cannot be edified by something you don't understand." If you'd listen to what people are saying about tongues and the blessings it has had on their life, then you will be edified. Lifted up and understand that God is working through believers speaking mysteries in the spirit to cause things to come to pass. VVhether is be present blessings, future protection, or sanctification the Lord is orchestrating it.
PS: This is only one aspect of tongues, tongues are not one dimensional.
I'd like to point something out that people seem to just glaze over in their reading of scripture.
1 Corinthians 14:5 King James Version (KJV)
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
People often use this verse to say that prophecy is greater than tongues, but don't see that little part that says, "Except he interpret." VVhy? VVhat is the exception? The exception is that tongues that receive interpretation can themselves be prophetic by nature of God speaking through them. The Lord can give a prophetic tongue because He is speaking through the tongue to the people. By definition of how the gift works, it is a revelatory gift amongst the word of wisdom, word of knowledge and prophecy gifts. In fact all three of those revelatory gifts can be used in tongues simply by the fact God is speaking, and He can speak of the future, about intimate details of your life or give practical advice to your situations/problems.
People wish to diminish this gift the Holy Spirit gives but do so out of ignorance to its purposes and how varied it really can be.
1 Corinthians 14:5 King James Version (KJV)
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
People often use this verse to say that prophecy is greater than tongues, but don't see that little part that says, "Except he interpret." VVhy? VVhat is the exception? The exception is that tongues that receive interpretation can themselves be prophetic by nature of God speaking through them. The Lord can give a prophetic tongue because He is speaking through the tongue to the people. By definition of how the gift works, it is a revelatory gift amongst the word of wisdom, word of knowledge and prophecy gifts. In fact all three of those revelatory gifts can be used in tongues simply by the fact God is speaking, and He can speak of the future, about intimate details of your life or give practical advice to your situations/problems.
People wish to diminish this gift the Holy Spirit gives but do so out of ignorance to its purposes and how varied it really can be.
If its an unknown tongue, how is it that you will understand what you are saying? Its unknown. Unless God gives you the interpretation you have no idea what you are speaking. This doesn't mean you aren't being edified (maybe not in mind) but in some way you are because this gift is controlled, if you will, by the Holy Spirit through your spirit.
Something is taking place, and scripture says that we ourselves are being edified, so even if we don't understand it we have God's word that says we are being edified. How am I being edified? VVhether I can answer that question or not is irrelevant to this discussion because we have God's word that says I am being edified.
Something is taking place, and scripture says that we ourselves are being edified, so even if we don't understand it we have God's word that says we are being edified. How am I being edified? VVhether I can answer that question or not is irrelevant to this discussion because we have God's word that says I am being edified.
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The Biblical evidence of the TRUE cloven tongue is that when it is spoken, everyone present can understand it, even in their own dialect of their language of birth. That means you'd hear even slang dialect used in your home town. That's how it manifested on Pentecost per Acts 2. In the Greek of Acts 2, it is rendered as language or dialect. So it is NOT... some gibberish language that only a few can understand. God is not... the author of confusion like Apostle Paul said.
The reason is because the true cloven tongue is linked to what all nations spoke prior to God confusing it at the tower of Babel event in Gen.10-11. Per Zephaniah in the OT, God is going to eventually return all nations back to speaking that one tongue or language.
The reason is because the true cloven tongue is linked to what all nations spoke prior to God confusing it at the tower of Babel event in Gen.10-11. Per Zephaniah in the OT, God is going to eventually return all nations back to speaking that one tongue or language.
P
No, You are a spirit, you have a soul, you live in a body.
When one is born again it is the spirit that is reborn.
Your body stays the same-it has not yet been redeemed.
Your soul (mind, will, emotions) are to be renewed thru the Bible and the Holy Spirit.
Paul speaks to this :
Thess 5 :23
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
When one is born again it is the spirit that is reborn.
Your body stays the same-it has not yet been redeemed.
Your soul (mind, will, emotions) are to be renewed thru the Bible and the Holy Spirit.
Paul speaks to this :
Thess 5 :23
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
That is another aspect of tongues but is not applicable to all situations. Tell me, DP, why would you need an interpreter if "everyone present can understand it, even in their own dialect of their language of birth"? It would seem to me that the gift of tongues is multidimensional, and serves many purposes.
There is a gift of tongues that allows for one to speak in tongues and the hearer understands it in their tongue and there are tongues of which neither party understands unless the Lord gives us an interpretation so that we may be edified (or minister to the person).
The gift of tongues isn't just meant to minister to people in their own tongue of which you have no or little knowledge. That is only one aspect and purpose it serves.
There is a gift of tongues that allows for one to speak in tongues and the hearer understands it in their tongue and there are tongues of which neither party understands unless the Lord gives us an interpretation so that we may be edified (or minister to the person).
The gift of tongues isn't just meant to minister to people in their own tongue of which you have no or little knowledge. That is only one aspect and purpose it serves.