Apostle Paul On Tongues In 1 Corinthians

[UnderGrace]

The Holy Spirit does not energize within non-believers. So whatever non-believers are doing, it is not praying in tongues.

The interesting thing is that the brain lights up the same way. Part of the sample study used professing believers, I know, I know ...what you are going to say they were not true believers.

The tongues prayers here on CC are also professing believers and there is not way to prove they are either, so that rebuttal is not valid.

 

[UnderGrace]

Science is simply proving Scripture. Paul says when he prays in the spirit his mind is unfruitful. So he prays both with his mind and his spirit. I like to describe praying in tongues as pouring out my heart. I know without a shadow of a doubt that it is the spirit praying through me. So arguing this topic since I have actual experiences with it. Is like someone who's never touched a stove arguing with someone who has that it's not really "hot".

So Science is valid when it supports but not so valid when it denies something that is actually so peripheral to the faith.

One needs to be objective in all things and to test the spirits.

Question, do you use words when you pray like this?

 

[garee]

Ok in Acts 2 what human language were they speaking, there were about 15 nations being represented there. If 12 to 120 people are speaking 15 or so different languages how can anything be understood?

Yes they would think everyone was crazy/mad . The only ones that would not are the ones that think that making sounds that have no meaning is God's way of allowing themselves to edify themselves as a form of pride.

The speaking or uttering sounds even in the words Peter spoke are not attributed as a work accredited to the person, as if Peter got up an offered his own opinion of what he thought God wanted him to say.

That would be promoting the private interpretations of men as if they came from scripture, God’s interpretation, as the witness of God to us..

Prophecy of scripture is of no persons opinion as a private interpretation. God moved Peter, Peter spoke God’s word and God translated his prophecy into the language the men heard.

It provided a conversation with both the hearer and the receiver, as the mutual fruit of the Spirit .

It would not do much good for everyone to speak in a different language with no understanding the other. It must of worked two ways or how would the other know what each other were rejoices in. Like a flute sounds point to words. Not just blowing notes indiscriminately into the air. With no rhyme or reason.

I think the bottom line is God is not served by hand hands as if he who has no needed needed something for the clay he is forming Christ in. He satisfies all needs.We must decrease he must increase. .

There is nothing we can do that would prove to be evidence of the Holy Spirit.Called a sign gift .His gifts are spiritual in nature (not seen) We walk by faith not by sight after the the experiences of the flesh .Walking after experience and not by faith the unseen .It is the reason for the fall in the garden.

1Co 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the LORD.

And they did not hear Him seeing they were not given the faith to make it possible to believe God. It was the prophecy in which God interpreted it into other men langues that did serve God. Again who is not served by human hands/will or tongue apart from His Spirit to begin with.

Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not “to them that believe”, but “to them” that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, “but for them” which believe.If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: 1Co 14:22
Prophesying is for those he is drawing into the church The sign of tongue to keep the other out.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

The Holy Spirit does not energize within non-believers. So whatever non-believers are doing, it is not praying in tongues.

The interesting thing is that the brain lights up the same way. Part of the sample study used professing believers, I know, I know ...what you are going to say they were not true believers.

The tongues prayers here on CC are also professing believers and there is not way to prove they are either, so that rebuttal is not valid.

While the brain may light up the same way, there is no way for science to register the action of the Holy Spirit upon the believer.

While scientists may conclude the genuine manifestation of kinds of tongues is the same as _______ [fill in the blank] and that there is no difference between the manifestation and _______, Scripture tells us differently. And I believe what God wrote in Scripture over the findings of the highly acclaimed scientist.

Do you believe God created the heavens and the earth? Or do you believe the scientist who sets about to disprove there is a God Who created?

 

[Cee]

Who said I have a problem with science? And testing spirits is not done by ignoring Scripture that makes us uncomfortable.

No, I don't use known words when I pray in the Spirit or pray in tongues. Or I would simply say "praying".

So Science is valid when it supports but not so valid when it denies something that is actually so peripheral to the faith.

One needs to be objective in all things and to test the spirits.

Question, do you use words when you pray like this?

 

[UnderGrace]

Who said I have a problem with science? And testing spirits is not done by ignoring Scripture that makes us uncomfortable.

No, I don't use known words when I pray in the Spirit or pray in tongues. Or I would simply say "praying".

I guess what I meant was you have rejected this particular science......but let us put that aside for the time being.

So when you pray in the Spirit, which I believe every born again believer does since it is our quickened spirit that communicates with God's spirit,

then if you do not use known words you are saying then that you using unknown words, am I correct?

So then the real disagreement here is if there are two types of tongues, and you say one type that is a private prayer language?

Am I correct?

I cannot converse on a topic unless we are talking about the same thing you see, otherwise I get confused.

 

[Silverwings]

How do you rationalize so many verses away though, that obviously contradict the traditional understanding of tongues at Pentecost? You keep saying tongues are used to preach the Gospel to people in their own dialect but Cee, and I, are waiting for you to present scripture that reveals this evangelism technique in action.

Now, as I said, I am not saying the gift of tongues is incapable of such a feat (for specific reasons, such that the Lord is guiding the utterance). I am just simply asking you to review scripture, 1 Corinthians 14 in particular. Compare it to what happened at Pentecost. Even at Pentecost you'll notice the people speaking in tongues weren't even addressing the Jews present but the Father, speaking to the Lord (magnifying Him). You'll also notice the apostle Paul speaking of praying in the Spirit (praying in tongues), and singing in the Spirit (singing in tongues). In Jude 20, again praying in the Holy Spirit to build one's most holy faith.

All I am asking you to do is read scripture again with an open mind that maybe there is more to tongues than meets the eye.

Ben, I have only been priviledged to hear one person singing in the spirit, and it was def. a wonderful thing to behold, oh the beauty of it, is indescribable!!

 

[Cee]

Yes I guess so.

I pray in tongues. It is between me and God. My spirit and His Spirit. My mind is not involved. My experiences line up with what Scripture teaches.

 

[Cee]

Everything I say is supported by Scripture if one is willing to accept.

What Scripture do you make the claims tongues is past? Why do you ignore Scripture that says do not forbid tongues? And Scripture that Paul says tongues is between spirit to Spirit. You ignore all of 1 Co 14 in your discussion of tongues and focus on Scriptures that you can use to prove your point. Instead of addressing them honestly.

And then to once again prove your point you say things like I've grieved Holy Spirit. Your arguments are not Scriptural supported you use "logic" which is easily twisted.

You say things like why would God use an unknown language for relationship? When clearly Scripture teaches He does.

It's a dangerous position to try to use logic to overcome the clarity of Scripture. And when addressed by countless people of multiple Scriptures being ignored to ignore it further and then to resort to attacking to prove a point.

In all honesty I have yet to see an honest argument for tongues ceasing and for tongues being to interpret to men. The only argument for these points is being made by saying Paul is speaking metaphorically which he's not or just by outright pretending like 1 Co 14 doesn't exist.

If you truly want to address this honestly at least tackle and explain Scriptures that disprove your position. And stop with this attacking, I hear just fine from Holy Spirit, I have not grieved Him so that He doesn't open up Scripture to me, but thank you for your concern.

I'd like to see you do a verse by verse exposition on 1 Co 14 since you have such a solid Scriptural support. I've already done this. As well as with Acts 2 and 4 addressing this same topic.

And yet it is clear that you do not support what you say with scripture. You go by what you feel or what you want the scripture to say not what is actually says. I'm not at all surprised by this because you need the Holy Spirit to open the scriptures to you and you have either grieved the Holy Spirit or other wise excluded Him from your understanding of scripture.

Ro 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Rom 2:1 ¶ Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

I do not take the word of God lightly. I expect it to apply to me as well as every other man. I do not find any place in scripture where the new age mystical modernism is taught.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[UnderGrace]

I guess what I meant was you have rejected this particular science......but let us put that aside for the time being.

So when you pray in the Spirit, which I believe every born again believer does since it is our quickened spirit that communicates with God's spirit,

then if you do not use known words you are saying then that you using unknown words, am I correct?

So then the real disagreement here is if there are two types of tongues, and you say one type that is a private prayer language?

Am I correct?

I cannot converse on a topic unless we are talking about the same thing you see, otherwise I get confused.

Okay thank you....well then we start afresh, what is this round three!

I have friend who knows Koine Greek so maybe I will need to go from that perspective.

Don't worry Cee, there is only one truth that much I hope we can agree upon.

 

[UnderGrace]

In all honesty I have yet to see an honest argument for tongues ceasing and for tongues being to interpret to men. The only argument for these points is being made by saying Paul is speaking metaphorically which he's not or just by outright pretending like 1 Co 14 doesn't exist.

Well I cannot deal with everything you wrote right now, but Paul often spoke with hyperbole.

My background is Italian (it is a language I understand and speak) and Italians are culturally much like Greek and I can tell you that is how people in these central Mediterranean cultures express themselves, it is just so ingrained in their language.

They love the hyperbole and metaphors, their whole way of expressing themselves is draw upon the extreme to illuminate the reality. So we cannot dismiss that if you want to be fair to the text and be objective.

 

[Cee]

What's to stop people from saying everything they don't like or agree with in Scripture is hyperbole? Universalists use this approach often.

Was Jesus being serious when He said He and the Father are one? Or was He using hyperbole to stress a point? Or how about when He said He alone is the way to the Father? The path of hyperbole is the ear mark of religion. This is exactly what had Pharisees discounting Scripture of their time because tradition used the argument of hyperbole to ignore commands or ideas they didn't feel comfortable with. Ignoring clear Scripture not just one, but several under the argument of "they didn't really mean it" is very dangerous for our growth in Christ.

I see this so often. I could give you a ton of examples. It is always the argument that is the cornerstone of Biblical interpretation error.

And especially scary about this argument is when it is made because of an emotional bias. An emotional volition says I refuse to believe this no matter how much evidence is presented. I have a few of these for example I know Jesus died for my sins no matter the logical evidence. But it is extremely prudent on our part to be able separate these conclusions.

I make very sure in my thought processes I know what Scripture says and what I believe Scripture is saying. One is truth and the other is opinion. I also ensure that my interpretative foundation is built on several clear Scriptures.

And one thing I am extremely wary of is logical conclusions, emotional suppositions, one off Scriptures, and unclear passages being the interpretive foundation to perceive Scripture through. Also whenever a new theology or knowledge of God is being presented, I ask Him myself what His thoughts are. And finally if my conclusions or someone else's comes against the revealed life of Christ who is the Image we've been given to know God, then I will look into the basic build blocks or components of the revelation to find the core truth. And once this is finished, I like to run through the conclusion against the pattern of Scripture and what I know to be true.

So, while I don't discount the argument of hyperbole it is extremely u likely and unwanted in my interpretative bias when looking at context and audience of Scripture. Each of those can be twisted if we are not building on the Rock, which is the clear revelations of Christ.

 

[UnderGrace]

I agree completely, I agree it important to rightly divide the word of God, thankfully we are only talking about one particular topic.

What's to stop people from saying everything they don't like or agree with in Scripture is hyperbole? Universalists use this approach often.

Was Jesus being serious when He said He and the Father are one? Or was He using hyperbole to stress a point? Or how about when He said He alone is the way to the Father? The path of hyperbole is the ear mark of religion. This is exactly what had Pharisees discounting Scripture of their time because tradition used the argument of hyperbole to ignore commands or ideas they didn't feel comfortable with. Ignoring clear Scripture not just one, but several under the argument of "they didn't really mean it" is very dangerous for our growth in Christ.

I see this so often. I could give you a ton of examples. It is always the argument that is the cornerstone of Biblical interpretation error.

And especially scary about this argument is when it is made because of an emotional bias. An emotional volition says I refuse to believe this no matter how much evidence is presented. I have a few of these for example I know Jesus died for my sins no matter the logical evidence. But it is extremely prudent on our part to be able separate these conclusions.

I make very sure in my thought processes I know what Scripture says and what I believe Scripture is saying. One is truth and the other is opinion. I also ensure that my interpretative foundation is built on several clear Scriptures.

And one thing I am extremely wary of is logical conclusions, emotional suppositions, one off Scriptures, and unclear passages being the interpretive foundation to perceive Scripture through. Also whenever a new theology or knowledge of God is being presented, I ask Him myself what His thoughts are. And finally if my conclusions or someone else's comes against the revealed life of Christ who is the Image we've been given to know God, then I will look into the basic build blocks or components of the revelation to find the core truth. And once this is finished, I like to run through the conclusion against the pattern of Scripture and what I know to be true.

So, while I don't discount the argument of hyperbole it is extremely u likely and unwanted in my interpretative bias when looking at context and audience of Scripture. Each of those can be twisted if we are not building on the Rock, which is the clear revelations of Christ.

 

[Cee]

When we try to neuter the power of God...
- There is no healing
- There is no prophesy
- There are no spiritual languages
- There is no "spiritual/mystical" component to God

We end up with only the wisdom of men...

And then we are in danger of going against Scripture here:

1 Co 2:4and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men[SUP]c[/SUP] but in the power of God.

Does our faith rest in the wisdom (what men before us teach) or in the power and reality of God?

Are we simply mere men? Or are we new creations in Christ with access to the grace of God? I believe the latter.

This idea that God's power working in us and through us is somehow prideful is extremely dangerous. It makes us ignore Scriptures that say and promise differently. And worse it puts us in the realm of "convincing men" of the power of God with only "human wisdom".

It is prevalent today, apologetics exist to argue with "wisdom" that "existence" of God.
We have logical arguments that say Christ existed.
And then the statement is "just believe".
But ultimately the idea is just believe in our logical conclusions. Believe in these Scriptures.
And many people do believe in Scriptures, but the power of God founds their belief in Him.

As a people, we should be ecstactic when people are getting healed, when people are getting set free, when people are getting saved in mass numbers, when people are joyfully experiencing God, when people are getting financial miracles...

But what I've noticed is the opposite.

When people are healed - there is doubt if it's God.
When people are saved in mass numbers - oh it must be the delusion of the enemy.
When people are provided for - oh that's just the "health and wealth" gospel. Many believe in a poor and sick gospel.
When people are delivered of demons - oh demons aren't for today, we use medication for that.
We people struggle with depression - oh don't tell them they can be set free
When people struggle with sin - oh that's just the "human" condition

The "power of God" is doubted, frowned upon, and even brought to silence. I've seen many healings and you would think doctors would freak out and get on the news, nope, they don't even want to know about it. Which isn't completely surprising, but when FOLLOWERS of God act the same way we have a serious issue. And why does this exist?

Because of arguments like this:

1. Gifts aren't for today
2. Jesus wasn't serious about greater works or His works being done in us
3. Paul wasn't serious about praying in Spirit language
4. Scripture doesn't really mean you are free from sin
5. Scripture doesn't really teach you are a new creation in Christ
6. In Christ is just a "phrase" it's not really a mystical union
7. When the Bible promises joy it doesn't mean experiential joy.

And slowly, inch by inch, we are left with a powerless gospel. It has Word, a lot of Word, but the power of it transform gets invalidated slowly every time we decide Scripture is just being "metaphorical" or it was for "those days".

My God has power. He is power. And He promises power. Some might try to shame me by saying I desire power for "selfish" purposes, but that statement is attacking, slanderous, and one of the biggest works of flesh. My God changes lives. Changes circumstances. My God is not waiting for us to be destroyed down here, while He waits to see if "we will overcome".

He promises that WE will overcome! He promises that He will NEVER leave us! But when you say that God never leaving us some how equates to transformative power, suddenly you're preaching some sort of "dominion, or Kingdom theology" or whatever else names people want to throw at it to try to belittle it.

And worse, I write these words, and they don't convict, people simply move forward like nothing has happened. We have become apathetic, waiting for the "great tribulation". And then we wonder why the world is the way it is, oh it must be God's will, are you kidding me? If it was God's will why did He say pray for the sick and do the it every single day He was here, why did He say disciple nations, why did He say we would cast out demons? Why did He give us the gospel? Because He wants us to be a difference in the world! He wants us to believe He is with us! That the same power that raised Him from the dead lives in us! He wants us to reveal Christ to the world! And the Spirit of God rests on us!

The power of God is REAL! And I will not make any bones about it. Spiritual gifts are real. The same God that walked on the Earth walks in us. And He has been glorified. And He has united Himself to us.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

A hearty AMEN!!!!, Cee

 

[UnderGrace]

A hearty AMEN!!!!, Cee

So then you do believe then that praying in tongues is a private prayer language that requires no interpretation?

A bit of position change I think?

 

[UnderGrace]

Well I suggest you start a thread on this if you are so passionate about it, I am only trying to discuss one topic, private

prayer language and whether it is supported by scripture.

But I am going to say......

I find it interesting though, in all of this passage you do a full court press on all things mystical, mention joy once and nothing on love.

You are in fact not preaching revival NOR evangelism but an awakening to spiritual power.

It seems that you promote so strongly the manifestations of God's power and huge moves of God and then you equate this with a powerless gospel, REALLY, tell this to the many martyrs brutally murdered who have and continue to lay down their lives for the true Gospel that Jesus died so that we would be not condemned, not this false Gospel of heaven on Earth!!

Why do you preach this?

When we try to neuter the power of God...
- There is no healing
- There is no prophesy
- There are no spiritual languages
- There is no "spiritual/mystical" component to God

We end up with only the wisdom of men...

And then we are in danger of going against Scripture here:

1 Co 2:4and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men[SUP]c[/SUP] but in the power of God.

Does our faith rest in the wisdom (what men before us teach) or in the power and reality of God?

Are we simply mere men? Or are we new creations in Christ with access to the grace of God? I believe the latter.

This idea that God's power working in us and through us is somehow prideful is extremely dangerous. It makes us ignore Scriptures that say and promise differently. And worse it puts us in the realm of "convincing men" of the power of God with only "human wisdom".

It is prevalent today, apologetics exist to argue with "wisdom" that "existence" of God.
We have logical arguments that say Christ existed.
And then the statement is "just believe".
But ultimately the idea is just believe in our logical conclusions. Believe in these Scriptures.
And many people do believe in Scriptures, but the power of God founds their belief in Him.

As a people, we should be ecstactic when people are getting healed, when people are getting set free, when people are getting saved in mass numbers, when people are joyfully experiencing God, when people are getting financial miracles...

But what I've noticed is the opposite.

When people are healed - there is doubt if it's God.
When people are saved in mass numbers - oh it must be the delusion of the enemy.
When people are provided for - oh that's just the "health and wealth" gospel. Many believe in a poor and sick gospel.
When people are delivered of demons - oh demons aren't for today, we use medication for that.
We people struggle with depression - oh don't tell them they can be set free
When people struggle with sin - oh that's just the "human" condition

The "power of God" is doubted, frowned upon, and even brought to silence. I've seen many healings and you would think doctors would freak out and get on the news, nope, they don't even want to know about it. Which isn't completely surprising, but when FOLLOWERS of God act the same way we have a serious issue. And why does this exist?

Because of arguments like this:

1. Gifts aren't for today
2. Jesus wasn't serious about greater works or His works being done in us
3. Paul wasn't serious about praying in Spirit language
4. Scripture doesn't really mean you are free from sin
5. Scripture doesn't really teach you are a new creation in Christ
6. In Christ is just a "phrase" it's not really a mystical union
7. When the Bible promises joy it doesn't mean experiential joy.

And slowly, inch by inch, we are left with a powerless gospel. It has Word, a lot of Word, but the power of it transform gets invalidated slowly every time we decide Scripture is just being "metaphorical" or it was for "those days".

My God has power. He is power. And He promises power. Some might try to shame me by saying I desire power for "selfish" purposes, but that statement is attacking, slanderous, and one of the biggest works of flesh. My God changes lives. Changes circumstances. My God is not waiting for us to be destroyed down here, while He waits to see if "we will overcome".

He promises that WE will overcome! He promises that He will NEVER leave us! But when you say that God never leaving us some how equates to transformative power, suddenly you're preaching some sort of "dominion, or Kingdom theology" or whatever else names people want to throw at it to try to belittle it.

And worse, I write these words, and they don't convict, people simply move forward like nothing has happened. We have become apathetic, waiting for the "great tribulation". And then we wonder why the world is the way it is, oh it must be God's will, are you kidding me? If it was God's will why did He say pray for the sick and do the it every single day He was here, why did He say disciple nations, why did He say we would cast out demons? Why did He give us the gospel? Because He wants us to be a difference in the world! He wants us to believe He is with us! That the same power that raised Him from the dead lives in us! He wants us to reveal Christ to the world! And the Spirit of God rests on us!

The power of God is REAL! And I will not make any bones about it. Spiritual gifts are real. The same God that walked on the Earth walks in us. And He has been glorified. And He has united Himself to us.

 

[Cee]

I focus on the reality of God. You've read plenty of my posts about the importance of the love of God. What is being attacked is power and reality of God. Please note though, none of the martyrs died from sickness, but persecution. And God's power doesn't mean we won't be persecuted. So not sure why you felt the need to go there.

Well I suggest you start a thread on this if you are so passionate about it, I am only trying to discuss one topic, private

prayer language and whether it is supported by scripture.

But I am going to say......

I find it interesting though, in all of this passage you do a full court press on all things mystical, mention joy once and nothing on love.

You are in fact not preaching revival NOR evangelism but an awakening to spiritual power.

It seems that you promote so strongly the manifestations of God's power and huge moves of God and then you equate this with a powerless gospel, REALLY, tell this to the many martyrs brutally murdered who have and continue to lay down their lives for the true Gospel that Jesus died so that we would be not condemned, not this false Gospel of heaven on Earth!!

Why do you preach this?

 

[Cee]

I have wrote longer posts about the love of God. And you liked them so I know you've read them, so why would you state something like this? You know already my passion about the love of God.

Pursue love and earnestly desire spiritual gifts. It is NOT one or the other, but both. And my post about the importance of spiritual gifts doesn't change my position on the primary importance on love. Love is not aside, but the reason why we desire spiritual gifts. I didn't know we needed to address that foundation again I am trying to build on the foundation of love. I seriously don't understand why you would take the stance you have knowing how passionately I've written about the love of God being the most important thing for us to receive and release.

 

[Cee]

False Gospel of Heaven on Earth.

Here's how you shall pray...
Thy Kingdom come
Thy Will be done...
Here on Earth, As it is in Heaven...

Tell Jesus what you just said.