Apostle Paul On Tongues In 1 Corinthians

[fredoheaven]

1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Prophecy not “prophesy” shall fail. The bible says “they shall fail”- pass away or done away which the foretelling of future events has been inoperative of today.

Prophesy, is the forth- telling part, that will edify the church. To prophesy means to preach the word also used in Revelation 10:11. The first usage in English was in 1587 by the writing of Thomas Thomas in his Dictionarium Latinae and Anglicanae being reference to “a thing foretold” and A Christian Dictionary by Thomas Wilson in 1612 refers to “testify”. It was only in 1676 and onward to mean “foretell.”

Revelation 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

“…whether there be tongues, they shall cease…” The gift of tongue shall cease. They come to an end when the perfect is come. My reference Bibliotheca Scholastica in 1589 means “to leave off” or “discontinue” as in the Dictionary of the French and English Tongue. The Bible says the gift of tongue will passed the scene.

Now, the phrase,” …whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away”, Knowledge here means art, skill or science. It refers to the skill how to do things well and definitely this is reference to clear method of study of God’s word. This technical know-how accordingly shall vanish, to perish, to come to nothing and much were void of understanding even during the time of Paul and Peter or during the apostolic times whereas some bent towards wresting of the scriptures or corrupting the scriptures.

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

2 Corinthians 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

Proverbs 7:7 And beheld among the simple ones, I discerned among the youths, a young man void of understanding,

Let it be established, whether prophecy, tongues, and even knowledge shall be done away, stopped, and cease as per what the Bible says...

 

[kohelet]

Interesting "take" on that...

Can you clarify what "cloven" tongues are? The only reference I remember was the spirit coming down like cloven tongues of fire... how does that relate to spoken tongues?

Also, Paul mentions two different kinds of tongues there...

are the "angelic" tongues the ones you are calling "cloven"?

Hi Hornetguy,

I haven't read the entire thread, so someone may have said this, but when I read, "And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them," I understand that along with the sound of a mighty wind, all of them being filled with the Holy Spirit and the speaking in tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance, there were what looked like flames of fire, described in terms of tongues, which rested on each person. I take "cloven" to mean "separated" or "divided". "Distributed", even.

I don't believe these to be the same as the languages spoken at Pentecost at all. This was one manifestation of several that occurred at the time, which had the appearance of fire, divided and resting on each person.

Nothing more to it than that, really.

Kohelet

 

[kohelet]

1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Prophecy not “prophesy” shall fail. The bible says “they shall fail”- pass away or done away which the foretelling of future events has been inoperative of today.

Hi Fred,

I'm not sure that's quite right. Prophecy and prophesy are two parts of the same word, prophecy being the noun and prophesy the verb. Look at the way the words were used in the verses you quoted and you will see my point.

Kohelet

 

[fredoheaven]

Hi Fred,

I'm not sure that's quite right. Prophecy and prophesy are two parts of the same word, prophecy being the noun and prophesy the verb. Look at the way the words were used in the verses you quoted and you will see my point.

Kohelet

Yea , thank you sir!

Here is another look on the word used in the Bible which is spelled "p-r-o-p-h-e-c-i-e-s" to at least give distinction so far as it was used in the early 17th century. John Cowell defined "prophecies" to mean 'taken for wiserdly foretelling of matter to come" John Cowell, The Interpreter: or Book Containing the Signification of Words (1607) or as used by Thomas Cooper in his Thesaurus Linguae Romanae et Britannicae (1584) as "prediction."[TABLE="width: 770, align: center"]
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This is to only point that "foretelling" by the prophets have already ceased since John wrote the final Revelation. Otherwise, there will be additional revelation that can mean additional gospel perhaps but that will not be the case.

God bless

 

[fredoheaven]

Yes according to Online Etymology - prophecy is a noun and prophesy is a verb, however, "The noun and verb spellings were not fully differentiated until 18c. "

Online Etymology Dictionary

Thank you

 

[DP]

Hey, I'm not arguing with you, I just have never heard the term "cloven tongues" and wanted some clarification.....

don't get your feelers hurt....

No feelings hurt here brother. I'm just trying to be clear and specific...

Acts 2:3-8
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
KJV

There's where the term "cloven tongues" originates (KJV). Cloven in the Greek means to divide, to partition.

 

[DP]

I did.........

You did what? Explain please.

 

[DP]

Tongues is not mimicking sounds like a Parrot. It has a clear message coming from God with a spirtual meaning called prophecy .This is when he was still bringing new prophecy before he sealed up the possibility of another word.. Tongues is not a work of men. God can put his word in the mouth of a creature to perform the good pleasures of His will. Remember he performs that which is appointed to us.

Num 22:28 And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?

Would that above be a gift of tongues that we could attribute to the ass showing outwardly it has the Holy Spirit? What does a ass/donkey represent throughout the scriptures?

He is not served with human hand as earthen vessels .We in our human vessel as new creatures in Christ have the authority of God in us but it is never to be assumed of us .

We walk by faith the unseen not after experiences in these bodies as that seen.



And what would be the purpose of giving us a mystery without any understanding and call it a gift?

I agree with you, but the section of 1 Corinthians Scripture I was covering with that idea was about Paul explaining about someone speaking a foreign language with no one present to understand, including the speaker. Others instead say he was speaking of some gibberish some call their prayer language, and saying that it's the cloven tongue of Pentecost, when it is not, because the true cloven tongue of Acts 2 was not heard as gibberish.

 

[kohelet]

Yea , thank you sir!

Here is another look on the word used in the Bible which is spelled "p-r-o-p-h-e-c-i-e-s" to at least give distinction so far as it was used in the early 17th century. John Cowell defined "prophecies" to mean 'taken for wiserdly foretelling of matter to come" John Cowell, The Interpreter: or Book Containing the Signification of Words (1607) or as used by Thomas Cooper in his Thesaurus Linguae Romanae et Britannicae (1584) as "prediction."[TABLE="width: 770, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 370"][/TD]
[TD="width: 90, align: center"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
This is to only point that "foretelling" by the prophets have already ceased since John wrote the final Revelation. Otherwise, there will be additional revelation that can mean additional gospel perhaps but that will not be the case.

God bless

Hi Fred,

That's right, "prophecies" is the plural of the noun "prophecy". We can only say that prophecies have ceased if we can show that the prophecies spoken about by Paul were of the same kind as those of the Old Testament prophets. Paul is encouraging the members of the church to earnestly desire the gift. Agabus had the gift and Paul chose to ignore some of the the advice given in it. This is not something people did with the very words of God. Tongues with interpretation is on a par with prophecy and are words which built people up, something that tongues do for the person using the gift privately.

The way I see it, the gifts will continue until Jesus comes again.

God bless you too, Fred!

 

[garee]

Yes according to Online Etymology - prophecy is a noun and prophesy is a verb, however, "The noun and verb spellings were not fully differentiated until 18c. "

Online Etymology Dictionary

Thank you

As a noun.... Prophecy is the word of God .As a verb ....to prophecy is to declare the word of God. In regard to many ,many manners. Orally witnessed ,as it is written or in any other manners, every time witnessed as it is written to verify it is of God .The author and finisher of Christian faith .

Like others manners, Tongues for a short time before God sealed up the possibility of any more new prophecy, or the onetime event of drawing of lots with the numbering of a special group of apostles (12) to be used as a metaphor , and answer from God with Gideon whether the fleece was dry from dew on the ground one day, or the other way around the next time. Or through a special dream, the use of signs and wonders, like a shadow going backward, another manner through hiding the spiritual understanding in a parable, proverbs songs etc. Many manners in specific time periods ,which were directed to the leaders or elders fathers or kings by the prophets who declared the word of God, prophecy to them.

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;Heb 1:1-2

The word prophecy its self does not denote a time frame .It can represent things to come as not seen. Things which are as that seen, or things from time past, again as not seen save by the the witness as it is written . All together as one living authority...... it is the key that the gates of hell could never prevail against .

 

[LaurenTM]

@Dp

and it is your PERSONAL opinion that tongues have ceased

and that's just the thing, isn't it

there is no one as adamant in believing that tongues have ceased...or that God is actually not human and therefore does not behave the way we think He should, as those who want to CONTROL everything around them

must be an awful feeling

 

[LaurenTM]

did any of the great patriarchs or prophets speak in tongues?

they knew more than you

the Holy Spirit had not descended yet as per the book of Acts...and by the way?

Jesus was not married to anyone

 

[kohelet]

As a noun.... Prophecy is the word of God .As a verb ....to prophecy is to declare the word of God. In regard to many ,many manners. Orally witnessed ,as it is written or in any other manners, every time witnessed as it is written to verify it is of God .The author and finisher of Christian faith .

Like others manners, Tongues for a short time before God sealed up the possibility of any more new prophecy, or the onetime event of drawing of lots with the numbering of a special group of apostles (12) to be used as a metaphor , and answer from God with Gideon whether the fleece was dry from dew on the ground one day, or the other way around the next time. Or through a special dream, the use of signs and wonders, like a shadow going backward, another manner through hiding the spiritual understanding in a parable, proverbs songs etc. Many manners in specific time periods ,which were directed to the leaders or elders fathers or kings by the prophets who declared the word of God, prophecy to them.

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;Heb 1:1-2

The word prophecy its self does not denote a time frame .It can represent things to come as not seen. Things which are as that seen, or things from time past, again as not seen save by the the witness as it is written . All together as one living authority...... it is the key that the gates of hell could never prevail against .

Hi Garee,

I don't know of a modern version of the Bible where we see "prophesy" used as a noun. Even if there were one though, wouldn't we be better off discussing the spelling and definitions of the Greek term? The noun and verb are προφητεία and προφητεύω respectively, where there are no 's' and 'c' spellings; both the verb and the noun are written with a 'τ'.

Do you have something to share about the Greek terms? To me, they're identical but for the usual verb and noun word endings -εία and -εύω.

Can you help us out here?

 

[notuptome]

they knew more than you

the Holy Spirit had not descended yet as per the book of Acts...and by the way?

Jesus was not married to anyone

Nu 11:25 And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.

The Spirit of God was well known to the Jews well before Pentecost.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[RickyZ]

Acts 2:3 They saw what seemed to be cloven tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them.

"Cloven tongues" describes a flame, not a language or speaking in any way shape or form.

 

[garee]

Acts 2:3 They saw what seemed to be cloven tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them.

"Cloven tongues" describes a flame, not a language or speaking in any way shape or form.

According to that parable Fire represents God's word as His judgement, as his cleaning fire it separate the clean from the unclean .Because it rest on those we can see it is God's choice in the matter.By that sign men know The LORD, he is the God; the LORD, he is the God.

Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench. And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, The LORD, he is the God; the LORD, he is the God.1Ki 18:38

 

[jaybird88]

they knew more than you

the Holy Spirit had not descended yet as per the book of Acts...and by the way?

Jesus was not married to anyone

what are you talking about? whats Jesus being married have to do with anything? did you reply to wrong person?

 

[RickyZ]

According to that parable Fire represents God's word as His judgement, as his cleaning fire it separate the clean from the unclean .Because it rest on those we can see it is God's choice in the matter.By that sign men know The LORD, he is the God; the LORD, he is the God.

Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench. And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, The LORD, he is the God; the LORD, he is the God.1Ki 18:38

Very true, but none of it has anything to do with anything spoken. "tongue of fire" was a very poor choice of wording, since so many are incapable of finding more than one meaning in the word 'tongue'.

 

[fredoheaven]

1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.



“…whether there be tongues, they shall cease…” The gift of tongue shall cease. They come to an end when the perfect is come.

The problem that cause many fail to understand the subject of the cessation of the sign gift of tongues and other temporal gifts, concerns the phrase “which is perfect is come”. Paul would have used, “He" which may refer to the future coming of Christ or the rapture but rather used "that" which refers the complete prophecy (noun).The Old Testament was to be completed with the advent of the New Testament.

The cessation of sign gifts were, indeed, to be future, but that cessation must be determined whether it is in the immediate future or the distant future. What sees fit is the immediate future, which has been wrapped up altogether into one Book, the Bible of 66 books from Genesis to Revelation.

God bless…

 

[fredoheaven]

Hi Fred,

That's right, "prophecies" is the plural of the noun "prophecy". We can only say that prophecies have ceased if we can show that the prophecies spoken about by Paul were of the same kind as those of the Old Testament prophets. Paul is encouraging the members of the church to earnestly desire the gift. Agabus had the gift and Paul chose to ignore some of the the advice given in it. This is not something people did with the very words of God. Tongues with interpretation is on a par with prophecy and are words which built people up, something that tongues do for the person using the gift privately.

The way I see it, the gifts will continue until Jesus comes again.

God bless you too, Fred!

Okay, thank you for this thoughts... God bless