THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE DOES NOT FIT LAST DAYS PROPHECY ABOUT NOAH
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Brother PennEd,
It would be the "spirit" of Moses (the Law) and the "spirit" of Elijah (the Prophets) that are killed in Jerusalem 3 1/2 days before the 7th Trumpet (last, 1 Cor 15:52, resurrection, 2nd 1Cor 15:23-24).
Where are the spirits of Moses and Elijah found?
In the written word of the Law and the Prophets, and in the Holy Spirit (Us/Israel).
The Law and the Prophets, the spirits of Moses and Elijah in the written word, are speaking now in Jerusalem.
Right now, there are only two witnesses, because they do not have the witness of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
------
Notice that the "ark" is seen in heaven R 11:19.
Do you see any parallel with Noah's ark?
It would be the "spirit" of Moses (the Law) and the "spirit" of Elijah (the Prophets) that are killed in Jerusalem 3 1/2 days before the 7th Trumpet (last, 1 Cor 15:52, resurrection, 2nd 1Cor 15:23-24).
Where are the spirits of Moses and Elijah found?
In the written word of the Law and the Prophets, and in the Holy Spirit (Us/Israel).
The Law and the Prophets, the spirits of Moses and Elijah in the written word, are speaking now in Jerusalem.
Right now, there are only two witnesses, because they do not have the witness of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
------
Notice that the "ark" is seen in heaven R 11:19.
Do you see any parallel with Noah's ark?
That's actually an old idea of the Reformer's time, because of the persecutions by the Roman Church against the Protestant rebellion in those days, they naturally thought the pope was the coming Antichrist.
In Revelation 12:9 and 20:2, we are shown that the tile of "dragon" is another name for Satan himself.
Rev 12:9
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
KJV
In the Rev.12:15-16 verses, the waters as a flood comes out of the mouth of both... the "dragon" and the "serpent". Did you not notice those two different titles? Both of those titles point directly to Satan himself, as given in Rev.12:9 and 20:2.
If you can receive it, that means the devil himself is coming to earth in 'our' dimension as the future Antichrist. No Protestant Christian is going to worship a pope in place of our Lord Jesus. But they may very well wrongly worship the devil disguised on earth as God working great signs and wonders, raining fire down from heaven in the sight of men (Rev.13). The Revelation 12:7-17 Scripture is specifically about Satan and his angels losing the war in heaven against the Archangel Michael, and then Satan and his being booted out of the heavenly dimension down to earth into our dimension. And remember, per God's Word, angels have appeared on earth in our dimension with the image of men, and some could not tell they were angels (Gen.19).
In Revelation 12:9 and 20:2, we are shown that the tile of "dragon" is another name for Satan himself.
Rev 12:9
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
KJV
In the Rev.12:15-16 verses, the waters as a flood comes out of the mouth of both... the "dragon" and the "serpent". Did you not notice those two different titles? Both of those titles point directly to Satan himself, as given in Rev.12:9 and 20:2.
If you can receive it, that means the devil himself is coming to earth in 'our' dimension as the future Antichrist. No Protestant Christian is going to worship a pope in place of our Lord Jesus. But they may very well wrongly worship the devil disguised on earth as God working great signs and wonders, raining fire down from heaven in the sight of men (Rev.13). The Revelation 12:7-17 Scripture is specifically about Satan and his angels losing the war in heaven against the Archangel Michael, and then Satan and his being booted out of the heavenly dimension down to earth into our dimension. And remember, per God's Word, angels have appeared on earth in our dimension with the image of men, and some could not tell they were angels (Gen.19).
Thank you for responding respectfully.
The facts about Irving and Darby are simply facts, not my opinion.
I also have been studying these things off and on for forty plus years, and I started out believing the Dispensational teaching about the pre trib rapture.
It was after trying to understand exactly where in the Bible it is taught, and not finding it, that I started to wonder if it was an historical belief or a new teaching of some kind. I looked into that and found the facts as I posted them above.
Regarding the "seven years", the only place in the entire Bible that mentions anything to do with seven years in any kind of eschatological context is Dan 9:27.
Throughout the history of the church - until Irving and Darby - the first three and half years were considered to be Christ's ministry. The second three and a half years were frequently thought to be the time between Jesus' ascension and the spreading of the gospel to the gentiles at Cornelius' house. (Isaac Newton, and perhaps a few others, thought that Jesus' ministry was 7 years long.)
Regarding responding to your points and providing documentation for mine, I respectfully request you give me a few hours.
I also invite your prayers that we may both come to an agreement of what God wants us to learn in this discussion.
Thank you.
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]This will be in installations due to the character limitation of each post.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]The following is not fit for formal publication. The information is valid but I have not included the bibliograpy and I have not structured the information appropriately. These are just notes to myself.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif][Edward Irving] was the most colorful figure in the British advent awakening. From 1826 on, he was completely absorbed in prophetic interpretation. [Carlsson, p.73][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Such throngs came to hear Irving that the largest churches in the British Isles could not accommodate them. [Fuller 1957, p.47][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Beginning in 1926 and continuing until about 1830, an annual week long prophecy conference was held at the estate of Henry Drummond at Albury, south of London. These came to be known as the Albury Prophecy Conferences. [/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Thus the first Prophetic Conference in the Old World Advent Awakening came to pass--the first of its kind, apparently, in the modern history of the church. [Froom, Vol 3, p.449][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]A total of forty four people attended at least one of the conferences during those years. The transcripts of these prophecy meetings were published annually as "Dialogs on Prophecy". The participants used pseudonyms in these transcripts. Most of the speakers have since been identified. [/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]These transcripts contain CONCLUSIVE PROOF of the existence of the pre-tribulation "rapture" concept in 1826 and 1827, perhaps of the very origins. Notice also the distinction made between the church and the Jews.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]In 1826, the concept was somewhat developed and was clearly discussed.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Speaker unknown: As Enoch was caught up to heaven, so "we Gentiles which are alive and remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air." ... so shall many saints fall asleep in Jesus before his wrath is poured out; ... As Noah was preserved in the ark, so shall the Jewish church be preserved in the wilderness, into which she shall be taken, ... there re-betrothed and kept from the antichristian tribulation. ... when Christ takes up his people to meet him in the air, it will be out of great and severe danger. [Dialogs on Prophecy V1, p 66-67][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Anastasius: If the church, the bride, is caught up and saved out of the great tribulation, the Jewish nation is also spoken of as restored during a time of great trouble. [Dialogs on Prophecy V1, p103][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Some of the Albury participants also indicated a belief that the "raptured" saints would return to earth with Christ at His 2nd Advent.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Speaker unknown: [Fiery judgment shall accompany the coming of the Son of God to the earth.] In this judgment all his saints accompany him: [Dialogs on Prophecy V1, p164][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]This position did not seem to be held by all the members present that year, though it was obviously discussed.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]In the following year (1827) there is no doubt that the pre-tribulation "rapture" was well established and clearly defined, as well as the dispensational concepts of two peoples of God, and seven dispensations, upon which all Dispensationalism is built.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Anastasius: ... we must distinguish the different parties interested in the coming of the Lord. These are four at the least. i. The Elect Spiritual Church; ii. The Apostate Christian Church; iii. The Jews; iv. The Heathen. [/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Philalethes: ... I wish you would tell me what you think is the next event which is to be anticipated for the church.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Anastasius: ...an annunciation that the object to be looked for is the coming of the Lord ... the coming of the Lord occurs at the period when the notice is given, namely, between the sixth and seventh vials. [Dialogs on Prophecy V2, p13-14][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Isocrates: the taking up of the elect occurs at the commencement of that [seventh] vial, and not at the end of it. [Dialogs on Prophecy V2, p15][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Anastasius: ... we are now living under the sixth [vial]; and that we may look hourly for the seventh and last, if, indeed, the first drop has not already fallen, [Dialogs on Prophecy V1, p296][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Polydorus: There can be no reasonable doubt in the mind of any one who has well studied the subject, that we are living in the period indicated by the outpouring of the 6th vial, [Dialogs on Prophecy V2, p47][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Anastasius: ... the not being able to find a refuge appointed for her on the earth seems to be an additional confirmation of the idea, that all his chosen ones will saved by being caught up [raptured] to meet him. [Dialogs on Prophecy V2, p16][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Anastasius: ... there are two judgments, one under the figure of harvest, and the second under that of vintage. ... as soon as it [the burning of the tares] is completed, the wheat will be gathered into the garner, and the earth left for the unmingled judgment of the vintage. The gathering of the wheat ... can be nothing but the first resurrection, and changing of the saints. ... after the sixth [vial]... which is the gathering of the wheat, and then the seventh, which is universal, that is, the vintage. [Dialogs on Prophecy V2, p19-20][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Philalethes: How does this idea of the changing the bodies of the elect, at the commencement of the seventh vial, coincide with what is revealed as the order of events connected with the restoration of the Jews? [Dialogs on Prophecy V2, p21][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Isocrates: During the subsequent war the only witnesses to Jehovah which will be left on the earth will be the Jews, ... Thus the appearances of the Lord to raise his saints, and again in order to save his national Israel, appear to be distant from each other by all that period occupied by the war of Armageddon, ... Ergo - The coming of the Lord, and the resurrection of the saints precedes the final deliverance of the Jews. [Dialogs on Prophecy V2, p22][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Only Jews left, Jews are witness to Christ during trib, both are dispensational concepts.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Immanency:[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Speaker Unknown: the translation of the church on earth ... closes the present dispensation. [Dialogs on Prophecy V3, p222][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Speaker Unknown: And the day or dispensation of grace, which having run for many a century, now runs, but may very soon run out, [Dialogs on Prophecy V3, p82][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Dispensation of Grace is current dispensationalistic terminology.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Two Forms of Worship:[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Anastasius: if the elect were not gathered in heaven, then there would be carrying on at the same time on the earth two distinct forms of worship, the Jewish and the Christian, both ordained by God himself: but for this we have neither example nor authority; therefore, under every view, it seems more probable, that the translation of the elect should be at the commencement of that period. [Dialogs on Prophecy V3, p172][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Anastasius: the New Testament [the Gospel of Jesus Christ] will have concluded its office [ended], when those who have believed it, and who have been saved by it, shall be safe in glory. [Is this not a different gospel!] ... Thus mankind, being left to themselves, without the restraining grace of the Holy Spirit, will quickly give way to all their bad passions, which being then uncontrolled, will produce the greatest misery, and end in their mutually destroying one another. [Dialogs on Prophecy V2, p26][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Holy Spirit removed, N.T. (church) concluded are fundamental dispensational beliefs.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Theologus: It appears, likewise, that the state of the Jews, just previous to their final establishment, i.e. between their first partial, and subsequent complete settlement, is expressed by Daniel, when he says that the covenant shall be restored for one week; [Emphasis mine.] and it is during this interval that, in all probability, the Jewish fulness will be completed. [Dialogs on Prophecy V2, p50][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]A seven year trib is a dispensationalistic teaching. This may be the first time Daniel's 70th Week was ever applied to the antichristian tribulation period. Heretofore, it seems - from my limited research so far - that anytime this "week" was applied in a relatively literal sense to a period of time, it was applied to Christ. See the chapter on Daniels 70th Week for more detailed information.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]But that's not all the dispensationalists have lifted out of the Albury prophecy conferences.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Theologus: Sacrifice, during the millennial state, will be commemorative of the death and consequent exaltation. The kingdom of Israel was necessary, as well as all that preceded it; the patriarchal dispensation, the flood, the fall, the creation, all just as they severally were, [Dialogs on Prophecy V2, p300][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]The 7 dispensations are major dispensational positions.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Justus: Melchizedek belonged either to the Antediluvian dispensation, or that which immediately followed the flood. ... after his ministration was ended by his removal, then the Abrahamic dispensation took his place, [Dialogs on Prophecy V3, p112][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Again, we are shown fundamental dispensationalist concepts.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif][Is this the first mentioning of this specific breakdown of dispensations, or can it be traced further back? Did they invent this part of Dispensationalism too?][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]In 1829 the members of this conference started publishing a quarterly prophecy journal called "The Morning Watch." This journal was published until 1833.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]In the 1830 volume, the seven churches listed in chapters two and three of Revelation are explained as periods of church history with the last two being:[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif](6) Philadelphia, the period of the preparation, until the Lord comes in the air and meets His saints, changed and risen; (7) Laodicea -- the 'only one yet entirely future' -- the church during the great tribulation between the coming of the Lord and the establishment of His throne. [Froom, Vol.3, p.505][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]This is also contemporary dispensational theology.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]PART TWO[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Edward Irving was a gifted orator and drew several thousand people to his weekly sermons at the Scotch National Church in London where he had been head minister since 1822. People would come at five in the morning to be assured of a seat. Admission was by ticket only. He was also popular in Scotland where he was known to preach to groups as large as 12,000 people. In one church so many people came that the balcony collapsed and killed several people. [Reference!!!][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]A key aspect of his preaching was the "immanency" of Christ's return. This is the idea that Christ's return could happen at any moment and that it is to be expected very soon.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]An opinion had been advanced in some of Mr. Irving's writings, that before the Second Coming of Christ, and before the setting in upon the world of the day of vengeance, emphatically so called in the Scriptures, the saints would be caught up to heaven like Enoch and Elijah; and would be thus saved from the destruction of this world, as Noah was saved in the ark, and as Lot was saved from Sodom. [Narrative of the Facts, p10][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]The immediate expectation of the Great Advent is the most powerful motive in their [the Irvingite’s] lives. Believing, as they do, that the Lord will come at once, and that the faithful amongst them will in a few days "be caught up to meet the Lord in the air," they pass their time on the very tiptoe of expectation. [Miller, vol. 2, p.261][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]About the year 1825, and primarily under the preaching of Edward Irving, the emphasis began to be placed on the "imminence" of that event. Irving held that the Lord might appear any day, at any hour, and that He would certainly come during the lifetime of the generation then living. [Allis p.168][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]And this salvation is no earthly deliverance, nor restoration of earthly dignity or power. The last notes of the knell of this world's Dispensation are pealing, -- the world passes away, and the things of the world; the only hope is that which hath been ever the hope of the Church, to be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, and so be ever with him, saved from the snare of the temptation and the great tribulation which are coming upon the earth. [Quoted from an Irvingite document, "The Great Testimony," by Miller, vol. 1, p.435][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Irving taught that Christ's return was imminent, that it could happen at any moment, and that shortly before Christ’s return, the apostolic gifts, such as prophecy and tongues, would be restored to the church. Irving called this restoration the "Baptism of the Holy Ghost" and that it could be attained by very spiritual individuals who were looking for Christ's imminent return.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]In 1828 Irving hired an assistant named Alexander J. Scott. In late 1829 Scott spent time teaching James, George and Margaret MacDonald, of Port Glasgow Scotland, and Mary Campbell, a teenage girl in nearby Row, about Irving's end times beliefs, including a coming FOR the saints, then the tribulation, then a coming WITH the saints. The McDonald's also learned about Irving's novel beliefs of restoration of miraculous gifts through the "Baptism in the Holy Ghost." [What are the sources of this data?][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]In early 1830 Mary had a "vision" and started "speaking in tongues". She wrote Irving in London explaining her experience and he was convinced it was a manifestation of God. Evidently, he considered it proof that he was correct in the immediacy of Christ's soon return because here was undeniable evidence: the gift of tongues was restored to the church after an absence of seventeen hundred years.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Mary Campbell first claimed her language to be that of the Pelew Islanders and later included Turkish and Chinese to her repertoire. Eventually, her claims were investigated and she was approached with the fact that her utterances were in no known language. She then claimed to be speaking in the tongues of angels. [Sources!][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Several days after Miss Campbell's experience, her close friend, 15 year old Margaret MacDonald, sister of James and George, also had a "vision" and started speaking in tongues. [/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]In her "prophecy", young Margaret addressed the return of Christ. She stressed the importance of the word "sign" and separated it from the 2nd coming. [/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]I felt this needed to be revealed, and that there was great darkness and error about it; but suddenly what it was burst upon me with a glorious light. I saw it was just the Lord Himself descending from heaven with a shout - the glorified Man - even Jesus; but that all must be, as Stephen was, filled with the Holy Ghost, that they might look up and see the brightness of the Father's glory. I saw the error to be that men think that it will be something seen by the natural eye, but it is spiritual discernment that is needed,... that we may discern that which cometh not with observation to the natural eye. Only those who have the light of God within them will see the sign of His appearance. ... then we shall be caught up to meet Him. None will be counted worthy of this calling but His body the church ... Now will the wicked one be revealed with all power and signs, and lying wonders, so that if it were possible the very elect will be deceived. It will be a fiery trial. [Norton, p15-17][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Margaret's "vision" was quite a news-getter in the small town of Port Glasgow, Scotland. Although the town only had about 5000 people in it, the evening meetings were drawing upwards of 1000 people.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Some have claimed that John Nelson Darby came to investigate this new teaching himself for two or three weeks. QUOTE? [Darby, p.283-285, and who else???][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Mary Campbell married and became one of the six prophets of Irving’s church in London. Another of the six "Prophets" of Irving’s church was Robert Baxter. Baxter would often be moved to prophecy when "the power" was upon him.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]On January 14, 1832, Mr. Baxter "prophesied" that in 3 1/2 years Jesus would come for his saints and that after a 3 1/2 year reign of antichrist he would return with his saints. [/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]count the days one thousand threescore and two hundred - 1,260 - the days appointed for testimony, at the end of which the saints of the Lord should go up to meet the Lord in the air, and evermore be with the Lord. ... This is the translation of the saints, whilst the rest of the world are left in their usual occupations. [Narrative of the Facts, p10][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]on other occasions, by the "utterances in the power," was the same thing again and again declared. [Narrative of the Facts, p11][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif][Concerning 2 Thess 2:6] "He who letteth" was declared [by "the power"] to be the Spirit of God: and the taking of this letting power out of the way, to be the taking away of the Spirit of God from the visible Church. [Narrative of the Facts, p14][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]so at the end of the three years and a half from the beginning of the prophecy of the witnesses, would God take away His Spirit and His Church altogether from the earth, by causing His faithful spiritual Church to be caught up to heaven like Elijah; and the earth being then without a witness for God, Satan should take to himself the sovereignty, and stand forth in all hideous power in the person of one man, to receive the worship of all the earth: that this in particular and in fullness was the man of sin, [Narrative of the Facts, p15][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]The purport of his utterance was confirming what had been said upon the rapture of the saints within three years and a half. [Narrative of the Facts, p27][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Notice the usage of the word "rapture". The term was in use in 1832.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Later, Baxter had second thoughts about the pre-tribulation rapture idea and its true origin.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Mr. Robert Baxter subsequently repented deeply of his part in the impiety. Humbly confessing his sin, he separated himself wholly from the partisans of the 'fables' and published a 'Narrative of the Facts.' He constantly maintained that the manifestations with which he had been connected were supernatural, but that Satan, not the Holy Spirit, was their author. [Prophetic Outlook Today, E.P. Cachemaille (1918); p.20 / McDougall, p.24][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]I endeavoured to convince him [Irving] of his error of doctrine, and of our delusions concerning the work of the spirit; but he was so shut up he could not see either. [Baxter, Narrative of the Facts, p42][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]One circumstance of these manifestations cannot but force itself upon observation; that is, the continual use which was made of the doctrine of the second advent of our Lord. This was the leading theme of the utterances. The nearness of it, its suddenness and the fearful judgment which would accompany it, [Baxter, p46][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Baxter's Narrative of Facts thus provides evidence that the pretribulation rapture was uttered in the same context as the heretical assertions regarding the sinfulness of Christ. Such associations raise the question of whether the idea of the pretribulation rapture itself may not be heretical. [Fuller 1957 p.51][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Edward Irving was a gifted orator and drew several thousand people to his weekly sermons at the Scotch National Church in London where he had been head minister since 1822. People would come at five in the morning to be assured of a seat. Admission was by ticket only. He was also popular in Scotland where he was known to preach to groups as large as 12,000 people. In one church so many people came that the balcony collapsed and killed several people. [Reference!!!][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]A key aspect of his preaching was the "immanency" of Christ's return. This is the idea that Christ's return could happen at any moment and that it is to be expected very soon.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]An opinion had been advanced in some of Mr. Irving's writings, that before the Second Coming of Christ, and before the setting in upon the world of the day of vengeance, emphatically so called in the Scriptures, the saints would be caught up to heaven like Enoch and Elijah; and would be thus saved from the destruction of this world, as Noah was saved in the ark, and as Lot was saved from Sodom. [Narrative of the Facts, p10][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]The immediate expectation of the Great Advent is the most powerful motive in their [the Irvingite’s] lives. Believing, as they do, that the Lord will come at once, and that the faithful amongst them will in a few days "be caught up to meet the Lord in the air," they pass their time on the very tiptoe of expectation. [Miller, vol. 2, p.261][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]About the year 1825, and primarily under the preaching of Edward Irving, the emphasis began to be placed on the "imminence" of that event. Irving held that the Lord might appear any day, at any hour, and that He would certainly come during the lifetime of the generation then living. [Allis p.168][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]And this salvation is no earthly deliverance, nor restoration of earthly dignity or power. The last notes of the knell of this world's Dispensation are pealing, -- the world passes away, and the things of the world; the only hope is that which hath been ever the hope of the Church, to be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, and so be ever with him, saved from the snare of the temptation and the great tribulation which are coming upon the earth. [Quoted from an Irvingite document, "The Great Testimony," by Miller, vol. 1, p.435][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Irving taught that Christ's return was imminent, that it could happen at any moment, and that shortly before Christ’s return, the apostolic gifts, such as prophecy and tongues, would be restored to the church. Irving called this restoration the "Baptism of the Holy Ghost" and that it could be attained by very spiritual individuals who were looking for Christ's imminent return.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]In 1828 Irving hired an assistant named Alexander J. Scott. In late 1829 Scott spent time teaching James, George and Margaret MacDonald, of Port Glasgow Scotland, and Mary Campbell, a teenage girl in nearby Row, about Irving's end times beliefs, including a coming FOR the saints, then the tribulation, then a coming WITH the saints. The McDonald's also learned about Irving's novel beliefs of restoration of miraculous gifts through the "Baptism in the Holy Ghost." [What are the sources of this data?][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]In early 1830 Mary had a "vision" and started "speaking in tongues". She wrote Irving in London explaining her experience and he was convinced it was a manifestation of God. Evidently, he considered it proof that he was correct in the immediacy of Christ's soon return because here was undeniable evidence: the gift of tongues was restored to the church after an absence of seventeen hundred years.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Mary Campbell first claimed her language to be that of the Pelew Islanders and later included Turkish and Chinese to her repertoire. Eventually, her claims were investigated and she was approached with the fact that her utterances were in no known language. She then claimed to be speaking in the tongues of angels. [Sources!][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Several days after Miss Campbell's experience, her close friend, 15 year old Margaret MacDonald, sister of James and George, also had a "vision" and started speaking in tongues. [/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]In her "prophecy", young Margaret addressed the return of Christ. She stressed the importance of the word "sign" and separated it from the 2nd coming. [/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]I felt this needed to be revealed, and that there was great darkness and error about it; but suddenly what it was burst upon me with a glorious light. I saw it was just the Lord Himself descending from heaven with a shout - the glorified Man - even Jesus; but that all must be, as Stephen was, filled with the Holy Ghost, that they might look up and see the brightness of the Father's glory. I saw the error to be that men think that it will be something seen by the natural eye, but it is spiritual discernment that is needed,... that we may discern that which cometh not with observation to the natural eye. Only those who have the light of God within them will see the sign of His appearance. ... then we shall be caught up to meet Him. None will be counted worthy of this calling but His body the church ... Now will the wicked one be revealed with all power and signs, and lying wonders, so that if it were possible the very elect will be deceived. It will be a fiery trial. [Norton, p15-17][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Margaret's "vision" was quite a news-getter in the small town of Port Glasgow, Scotland. Although the town only had about 5000 people in it, the evening meetings were drawing upwards of 1000 people.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Some have claimed that John Nelson Darby came to investigate this new teaching himself for two or three weeks. QUOTE? [Darby, p.283-285, and who else???][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Mary Campbell married and became one of the six prophets of Irving’s church in London. Another of the six "Prophets" of Irving’s church was Robert Baxter. Baxter would often be moved to prophecy when "the power" was upon him.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]On January 14, 1832, Mr. Baxter "prophesied" that in 3 1/2 years Jesus would come for his saints and that after a 3 1/2 year reign of antichrist he would return with his saints. [/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]count the days one thousand threescore and two hundred - 1,260 - the days appointed for testimony, at the end of which the saints of the Lord should go up to meet the Lord in the air, and evermore be with the Lord. ... This is the translation of the saints, whilst the rest of the world are left in their usual occupations. [Narrative of the Facts, p10][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]on other occasions, by the "utterances in the power," was the same thing again and again declared. [Narrative of the Facts, p11][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif][Concerning 2 Thess 2:6] "He who letteth" was declared [by "the power"] to be the Spirit of God: and the taking of this letting power out of the way, to be the taking away of the Spirit of God from the visible Church. [Narrative of the Facts, p14][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]so at the end of the three years and a half from the beginning of the prophecy of the witnesses, would God take away His Spirit and His Church altogether from the earth, by causing His faithful spiritual Church to be caught up to heaven like Elijah; and the earth being then without a witness for God, Satan should take to himself the sovereignty, and stand forth in all hideous power in the person of one man, to receive the worship of all the earth: that this in particular and in fullness was the man of sin, [Narrative of the Facts, p15][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]The purport of his utterance was confirming what had been said upon the rapture of the saints within three years and a half. [Narrative of the Facts, p27][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Notice the usage of the word "rapture". The term was in use in 1832.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Later, Baxter had second thoughts about the pre-tribulation rapture idea and its true origin.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Mr. Robert Baxter subsequently repented deeply of his part in the impiety. Humbly confessing his sin, he separated himself wholly from the partisans of the 'fables' and published a 'Narrative of the Facts.' He constantly maintained that the manifestations with which he had been connected were supernatural, but that Satan, not the Holy Spirit, was their author. [Prophetic Outlook Today, E.P. Cachemaille (1918); p.20 / McDougall, p.24][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]I endeavoured to convince him [Irving] of his error of doctrine, and of our delusions concerning the work of the spirit; but he was so shut up he could not see either. [Baxter, Narrative of the Facts, p42][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]One circumstance of these manifestations cannot but force itself upon observation; that is, the continual use which was made of the doctrine of the second advent of our Lord. This was the leading theme of the utterances. The nearness of it, its suddenness and the fearful judgment which would accompany it, [Baxter, p46][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Baxter's Narrative of Facts thus provides evidence that the pretribulation rapture was uttered in the same context as the heretical assertions regarding the sinfulness of Christ. Such associations raise the question of whether the idea of the pretribulation rapture itself may not be heretical. [Fuller 1957 p.51][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]PART THREE[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]In late summer of 1830, Irving, with his wife and daughter, spent more than a week in Dublin at the castle of Lady Powerscourt, a friend of the Irvings. Irving traveled around the Dublin area preaching to thousands. During one eight day period, he preached thirteen times. At one church so many people came to listen to him that one of the windows of the church was removed to enable the people outside to hear. [/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]The Rev. Edward Irving, who our readers may recollect is minister of the Caledonian Chapel in London, preached an able and admirable discourse yesterday, at the Scots' Chapel.... This place of worship was not only crowded to suffocation, but several hundreds assembled outside on benches placed at the south-west window, the frame of which had been previously removed, from which he was audibly heard by the external as well as internal portion of the congregation. [Saunder's News-Letter, 18th Sept. 1830 / from Oliphant, p.300][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Lady Powerscourt visited the Albury conference in 1827 [Source?] and had become very interested in prophetic subjects. She is said to have read every book on prophecy available at the time.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif][She] was so delighted with them [the Albury conferences] that she established a similar series of meetings at Powerscourt House near Bray [Fuller 1957 p.51/Neatby p.38][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Irving attended some of these meetings. [Fuller 1957 p.51/Froom, V3, p.585] [/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Another close friend of Lady Powerscourt, himself from the Dublin area, was John Nelson Darby. It was said that at one time Darby and Lady Powerscourt were engaged, but they canceled their engagement because of his heavy traveling schedule. [Reference???] Darby also came to the conferences sponsored by Lady Powerscourt, attending with Irving.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]The late Dr. Harry Ironside had a thirty year background with the Plymouth Brethren, the denomination Darby helped found. He was a believer in the pre-tribulational rapture. He has even been called the "prince of dispensational preachers." [Ryrie, p.31] Ironside writes about the beginning of the pre-tribulation theory: [/FONT]
… [FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]a group of earnest Christians had been meeting in the castle of Lady Powerscourt for the study of prophecy. To these meetings Mr. Darby and Mr. Bellett were invited. Here also they met George V. Wigram, who was to become one of Mr. Darby's most earnest collaborators in after years. ... Many clergymen attended, and quite a few who were linked with the Irvingites, thus giving rise to the erroneous impression that the Brethren Movement was more or less linked with the 'Catholic Apostolic Church'. ... It was at these meetings that the precious truth of the rapture of the Church was brought to light; [Emphasis mine.] that is, the coming of the Lord in the air to take away His Church before the great tribulation should begin on earth. The views brought out at the Powerscourt castle not only largely formed the views of Brethren elsewhere, but as years went on obtained wide publication in denominational circles, chiefly through the writings of such men as Darby, Bellett, Newton, S. P. Tregelles, Andrew Jukes, Wigram,... [Ironside, p.23][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Dr. Tregelles, editor of the Greek New Testament and one of the foremost biblical scholars of the nineteenth century, was involved in promoting the "Secret Rapture" for a time (note his name in Dr. Ironside's quote above), but he had a change of heart. Later he writes: [/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]I am not aware that there was any definite teaching that there would be a secret rapture of the Church at a secret coming, until this was given forth as an "utterance" in Mr. Irving's Church, from what was there received as being the voice of the Spirit. But whether anyone ever asserted such a thing or not, it was from that supposed revelation that the modern doctrine and the modern phraseology arose. It came not from Holy Scripture, but from that which falsely pretended to be the Spirit of God, ... After the opinion of a secret advent had been adopted, many expressions in older writers were regarded as supporting it; in which, however, the word "secret" does not mean unperceived or unknown, but simply secret in point of time. [Tregelles, p.35][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Dr. Robert Cameron, one-time editor of "Watchword and Truth," claims that[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]...until the days of Edward Irving, who was excluded from the Presbyterian church for heresy, no one ever heard of this "coming for," and "coming with" the saints; no one ever intimated that the saints would not be on the earth in the days of the Antichrist. [Robert Cameron, "Notes by the Way," 'Watchword and Truth', XXIV (January, 1902), 395. / from Fuller, p.112-3][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]no hint of any approach to such a belief can be found in any Christian literature from Polycarp down, until the strange utterances given out in the Church of Edward Irving ... by women speaking in tongues." ... Then, according to Cameron, "they recovered the long-neglected truth that a 'Second Coming' of the Lord was 'the hope' of the Apostolic Church" ... Since that day was then eighteen centuries closer than in Apostolic days, they "became possessed of the feeling that it was the 'midnight' hour of Christendom, that the Advent was at the very door, ..[Theissen, p.188-9][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif][Check full quote.][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]They were claiming that the "secret pre-tribulational rapture" existed in the apostolic church and was "long neglected" until they recovered it.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Benjamin W. Newton was a close associate of Darby in the early years of the Plymouth Brethren movement. Darby later excommunicated Newton for disagreeing with him on certain theological points. One such disagreement is described by Newton. [/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]At last Darby wrote from Cork, saying he had discovered a method of reconciling the whole dispute, and would tell me when he came. When he did, it turned out to be the 'Jewish Interpretation'. The Gospel of Matthew was not teaching Church Truth but Kingdom Truth, and so on. He explained it to me and I said 'Darby, if you admit that distinction you virtually give up Christianity.' Well, they kept on at that until they worked out the result as we all know it. The Secret Rapture was bad enough but this was worse [WHO?/MacPherson, p.199][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Mr. Kelly further remarks, that "it so happens that, during a visit to Plymouth in the summer of 1845, Mr. B. W. Newton, told me that, many years before, Mr. Darby wrote to him a letter in which he said that a suggestion was made to him by Mr. T. Tweedy (a spiritual man, and most devoted ex-clergyman among the Irish brethren), which, to his mind quite cleared up the difficulty previously felt on this very question. [WHO?/Carlsson, p.69][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]But since they were Bible students and not fanatics, they had difficulty with Matt. 24:29,30, where we read: "Immediately after the tribulation ... shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven." For three years they were perplexed about the meaning of this statement. The tribulation had not come, nor had the "abomination" that preceded it been seen; "therefore the Advent was not historically imminent, however it might be to the heart."... At that time a godly clergyman, by the name of Tweedy, came from England to Dublin and solved the problem by teaching that the so-called Olivet Discourse was for the Jews, that the Church would be caught up, secretly, before the tribulation. This interpretation these godly men accepted and proclaimed to the world. J. N. Darby is especially mentioned as giving it currency by speech and pen. [Theissen, p.188-9][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]CHECK QUOTE[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif][Fuller 1957, p.56][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]While not definitely saying that Tweedy got this teaching from the women who spake in tongues in Irving's meetings (he [Cameron] says that Irving taught it too), he seems to insinuate that is the case. [Theissen, p.189][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]CHECK QUOTE[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]A brief anecdote on Darby's tendency of reinterpreting the Bible can be seen in the following quote by an early member of Darby's Plymouth Brethren movement. [/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]... I am a constant reader of my Bible, and I soon found that what I was taught to believe did not always agree with what my Bible said. I came to see that I must either part company with John Darby, or my precious Bible, and I chose to cling to my Bible and part from Mr. Darby. [Reese, p.320][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Thus, George Muller, one of the great saints of the 1800's, chose to believe his Bible instead of what John Darby taught. Muller, incidentally, was excommunicated by Darby because he also disagreed with Darby on certain points of theology.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]In late summer of 1830, Irving, with his wife and daughter, spent more than a week in Dublin at the castle of Lady Powerscourt, a friend of the Irvings. Irving traveled around the Dublin area preaching to thousands. During one eight day period, he preached thirteen times. At one church so many people came to listen to him that one of the windows of the church was removed to enable the people outside to hear. [/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]The Rev. Edward Irving, who our readers may recollect is minister of the Caledonian Chapel in London, preached an able and admirable discourse yesterday, at the Scots' Chapel.... This place of worship was not only crowded to suffocation, but several hundreds assembled outside on benches placed at the south-west window, the frame of which had been previously removed, from which he was audibly heard by the external as well as internal portion of the congregation. [Saunder's News-Letter, 18th Sept. 1830 / from Oliphant, p.300][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Lady Powerscourt visited the Albury conference in 1827 [Source?] and had become very interested in prophetic subjects. She is said to have read every book on prophecy available at the time.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif][She] was so delighted with them [the Albury conferences] that she established a similar series of meetings at Powerscourt House near Bray [Fuller 1957 p.51/Neatby p.38][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Irving attended some of these meetings. [Fuller 1957 p.51/Froom, V3, p.585] [/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Another close friend of Lady Powerscourt, himself from the Dublin area, was John Nelson Darby. It was said that at one time Darby and Lady Powerscourt were engaged, but they canceled their engagement because of his heavy traveling schedule. [Reference???] Darby also came to the conferences sponsored by Lady Powerscourt, attending with Irving.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]The late Dr. Harry Ironside had a thirty year background with the Plymouth Brethren, the denomination Darby helped found. He was a believer in the pre-tribulational rapture. He has even been called the "prince of dispensational preachers." [Ryrie, p.31] Ironside writes about the beginning of the pre-tribulation theory: [/FONT]
… [FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]a group of earnest Christians had been meeting in the castle of Lady Powerscourt for the study of prophecy. To these meetings Mr. Darby and Mr. Bellett were invited. Here also they met George V. Wigram, who was to become one of Mr. Darby's most earnest collaborators in after years. ... Many clergymen attended, and quite a few who were linked with the Irvingites, thus giving rise to the erroneous impression that the Brethren Movement was more or less linked with the 'Catholic Apostolic Church'. ... It was at these meetings that the precious truth of the rapture of the Church was brought to light; [Emphasis mine.] that is, the coming of the Lord in the air to take away His Church before the great tribulation should begin on earth. The views brought out at the Powerscourt castle not only largely formed the views of Brethren elsewhere, but as years went on obtained wide publication in denominational circles, chiefly through the writings of such men as Darby, Bellett, Newton, S. P. Tregelles, Andrew Jukes, Wigram,... [Ironside, p.23][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Dr. Tregelles, editor of the Greek New Testament and one of the foremost biblical scholars of the nineteenth century, was involved in promoting the "Secret Rapture" for a time (note his name in Dr. Ironside's quote above), but he had a change of heart. Later he writes: [/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]I am not aware that there was any definite teaching that there would be a secret rapture of the Church at a secret coming, until this was given forth as an "utterance" in Mr. Irving's Church, from what was there received as being the voice of the Spirit. But whether anyone ever asserted such a thing or not, it was from that supposed revelation that the modern doctrine and the modern phraseology arose. It came not from Holy Scripture, but from that which falsely pretended to be the Spirit of God, ... After the opinion of a secret advent had been adopted, many expressions in older writers were regarded as supporting it; in which, however, the word "secret" does not mean unperceived or unknown, but simply secret in point of time. [Tregelles, p.35][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Dr. Robert Cameron, one-time editor of "Watchword and Truth," claims that[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]...until the days of Edward Irving, who was excluded from the Presbyterian church for heresy, no one ever heard of this "coming for," and "coming with" the saints; no one ever intimated that the saints would not be on the earth in the days of the Antichrist. [Robert Cameron, "Notes by the Way," 'Watchword and Truth', XXIV (January, 1902), 395. / from Fuller, p.112-3][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]no hint of any approach to such a belief can be found in any Christian literature from Polycarp down, until the strange utterances given out in the Church of Edward Irving ... by women speaking in tongues." ... Then, according to Cameron, "they recovered the long-neglected truth that a 'Second Coming' of the Lord was 'the hope' of the Apostolic Church" ... Since that day was then eighteen centuries closer than in Apostolic days, they "became possessed of the feeling that it was the 'midnight' hour of Christendom, that the Advent was at the very door, ..[Theissen, p.188-9][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif][Check full quote.][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]They were claiming that the "secret pre-tribulational rapture" existed in the apostolic church and was "long neglected" until they recovered it.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Benjamin W. Newton was a close associate of Darby in the early years of the Plymouth Brethren movement. Darby later excommunicated Newton for disagreeing with him on certain theological points. One such disagreement is described by Newton. [/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]At last Darby wrote from Cork, saying he had discovered a method of reconciling the whole dispute, and would tell me when he came. When he did, it turned out to be the 'Jewish Interpretation'. The Gospel of Matthew was not teaching Church Truth but Kingdom Truth, and so on. He explained it to me and I said 'Darby, if you admit that distinction you virtually give up Christianity.' Well, they kept on at that until they worked out the result as we all know it. The Secret Rapture was bad enough but this was worse [WHO?/MacPherson, p.199][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Mr. Kelly further remarks, that "it so happens that, during a visit to Plymouth in the summer of 1845, Mr. B. W. Newton, told me that, many years before, Mr. Darby wrote to him a letter in which he said that a suggestion was made to him by Mr. T. Tweedy (a spiritual man, and most devoted ex-clergyman among the Irish brethren), which, to his mind quite cleared up the difficulty previously felt on this very question. [WHO?/Carlsson, p.69][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]But since they were Bible students and not fanatics, they had difficulty with Matt. 24:29,30, where we read: "Immediately after the tribulation ... shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven." For three years they were perplexed about the meaning of this statement. The tribulation had not come, nor had the "abomination" that preceded it been seen; "therefore the Advent was not historically imminent, however it might be to the heart."... At that time a godly clergyman, by the name of Tweedy, came from England to Dublin and solved the problem by teaching that the so-called Olivet Discourse was for the Jews, that the Church would be caught up, secretly, before the tribulation. This interpretation these godly men accepted and proclaimed to the world. J. N. Darby is especially mentioned as giving it currency by speech and pen. [Theissen, p.188-9][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]CHECK QUOTE[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif][Fuller 1957, p.56][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]While not definitely saying that Tweedy got this teaching from the women who spake in tongues in Irving's meetings (he [Cameron] says that Irving taught it too), he seems to insinuate that is the case. [Theissen, p.189][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]CHECK QUOTE[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]A brief anecdote on Darby's tendency of reinterpreting the Bible can be seen in the following quote by an early member of Darby's Plymouth Brethren movement. [/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]... I am a constant reader of my Bible, and I soon found that what I was taught to believe did not always agree with what my Bible said. I came to see that I must either part company with John Darby, or my precious Bible, and I chose to cling to my Bible and part from Mr. Darby. [Reese, p.320][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Thus, George Muller, one of the great saints of the 1800's, chose to believe his Bible instead of what John Darby taught. Muller, incidentally, was excommunicated by Darby because he also disagreed with Darby on certain points of theology.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]PART FOUR[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Darby was quite quick to excommunicate people from "his" church. If one of these excommunicated souls went to another church, all those in the second church would also be excommunicated, and if one of those went to a third church, all those in the third church would be excommunicated as well. Was this biblical authority or spiritual arrogance and totalitarianism on the part of John Darby? What gave John Darby the authority to speak "Ex Cathedra" on such matters?[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Darby was probably the greatest promoter of the new teaching of the two returns of Christ, as well as one of the driving forces behind the establishment of the Plymouth Brethren movement.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]The Brethren Movement had its beginning ... at a time when there was a great revival of interest in the doctrine of the second coming. ... The Brethren were opposed to Irvingism, but it cannot be denied that, however they came by it, they speedily became ardent advocates of what is called the "any moment" doctrine of the coming. In other words, they regard the coming as imminent in the sense of proximate, i.e., as the next event in the prophetic program of the Bible; and they insisted that there is nothing in the program so far as it is revealed in Scripture which must take place before it. [Allis, p.168-9] [/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]But the spread of Dispensationalism to America was greatly enhanced by the visits of Darby himself. Beginning in 1862 and on seven different occasions during the next fifteen years, Darby made extended visits to the United States and Canada. His letters reveal that he was in these countries for a period totaling six years. [Fuller 1957, p.68][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Broadcast by Darby's six visits to America and by the extensive literature campaign of the Brethren and other writers under their influence, pretribulationism spread rapidly. [Gundry, p.187][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif][Darby's] ideas achieved the ascendancy among the Plymouth Brethren. Dispensationalism then spread to America through the prolific writings of Darby and the Plymouth Brethren as well as through the numerous and extended visits of Darby himself. Chief among those who were influenced by Darby in America was James H. Brookes. Through his pen, his pulpit, through America's first annual summer Bible conference (the Niagara Conferences), he did much to popularize this teaching in America. But not the least of his influence for Dispensationalism came through the personal instruction he gave to C.I. Scofield, for in later years the Scofield Reference Bible became one of the chief means for bringing Dispensationalism to a position of great popularity among American Evangelicals. Near the close of his life, Scofield challenged Lewis Sperry Chafer to devote his life to teaching the Bible according to Dispensational principles. In 1924 Chafer founded a school, later to be known as Dallas Theological Seminary, which, along with numerous Bible Institutes arising at the close of World War I, did much to train ministers and Christian workers in Darbyism. [Fuller 1957, p.377-78][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Brookes had accepted a prophetic view remarkably close to that of the Plymouth Brethren and Brethren leader John Darby. It has been claimed that Brookes and Darby had been in personal contact when Darby passed through St Louis either in 1877 or on earlier trips. Scofield always claimed Brookes as a "Father on the Faith." Brookes was one of the group instrumental in bringing D. L. Moody to St. Louis for the 1879-1880 campaign. [Canfield, p.68][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]The large class of evangelists, of whom Dwight L. Moody was the most eminent, have drawn their inspiration and their Scriptural interpretation largely from the writings and personal influence of the Brethren. [Newman, vol. 2, p.713][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Scofield happened to be in the one city in North America, St Louis, which had been singled out by John Nelson Darby for concentrated "planting of the seed" of Darby's special brand of Bible teaching. [/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]During the summer of 1872, Darby wrote of the situation in St. Louis: "...had good opportunities and I am in pretty full intercourse with those exercised, among whom are more than one official minister." Harry Ironside claims that Darby preached in Brookes' pulpit. [Canfield, p.74/from Sandeen, p.75][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Oswald Allis notes that Brookes' Dispensational beliefs so closely resembled[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]...those of the Brethren that it seems clear that they were largely derived from them, Brookes gave no credit for them to Darby or any of the Brethren. This may be due to the fact that there were associations with the name of Darby which Brookes wished to avoid. [Allis, p.196] [/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]This sounds ironically similar to the way Darby wished to avoid letting people know he got his ideas from Irving.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]In the June 1897 issue of "The Truth" magazine, Scofield said of Brookes:[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]My own personal obligations to him are beyond words. He sought me in the first days of the Christian life and was my friend and first teacher in the oracles of God. [Canfield, p.147/ from The Truth, St. Louis, Mo., Charles B. Cox, Publisher, Vol XXIII, No.6, 1890 (sic, date??)][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]The 66 heading summaries for the individual books as placed in The Scofield Reference Bible are strictly in line with the thinking of the Brethren and Dispensational movements. [Canfield, p.209][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]The heart of the religious system which made Scofield's name famous is its prophetic stance. The proponents of that system claim that the Scofield prophetic ideas represent a recovery of "lost truths," lost since the early days of the church. That point is not confirmed by careful scholarship. [Canfield, p.122][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]The Scofield Reference Bible ... contained the most complete and available compendium of Dispensationalism. Chafer rose to the defense of Scofield's principles and in many instances expounded them with even greater detail and lucidity. In the writings of Lewis Sperry Chafer, and especially his eight-volume Systematic Theology, is to be found the most complete systematization of Dispensationalism. [Fuller 1957, 378][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif][The Scofield Reference Bible has] probably done as much to popularize the prophetic teachings of Darby and the Brethren as all other agencies put together [Allis, p. 14] [/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]This Bible contains the King James version of the Bible with a system of chain references and footnotes setting forth the doctrines of John Darby, which has been assiduously absorbed and zealously propagated by Dr. Scofield, who while rejecting Darby's ecclesiology, accepted his eschatology in its totality. [Murray, p.13] [/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]It was not until the first decade of the twentieth century that Dispensationalism, with its rapture theory, and the separation of the seventieth week from the previous sixty-nine weeks of years of Daniel 9, became general in the then newly forming Fundamentalist wing of Protestantism. This was largely brought about by the acceptance of Dr. C. I. Scofield's broad and revolutionary thesis, and the aggressive support given this postulate by the Moody Bible Institute of Chicago. [Emphasis mine.] [Froom, vol 4, p.1203-4][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Darby was quite quick to excommunicate people from "his" church. If one of these excommunicated souls went to another church, all those in the second church would also be excommunicated, and if one of those went to a third church, all those in the third church would be excommunicated as well. Was this biblical authority or spiritual arrogance and totalitarianism on the part of John Darby? What gave John Darby the authority to speak "Ex Cathedra" on such matters?[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Darby was probably the greatest promoter of the new teaching of the two returns of Christ, as well as one of the driving forces behind the establishment of the Plymouth Brethren movement.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]The Brethren Movement had its beginning ... at a time when there was a great revival of interest in the doctrine of the second coming. ... The Brethren were opposed to Irvingism, but it cannot be denied that, however they came by it, they speedily became ardent advocates of what is called the "any moment" doctrine of the coming. In other words, they regard the coming as imminent in the sense of proximate, i.e., as the next event in the prophetic program of the Bible; and they insisted that there is nothing in the program so far as it is revealed in Scripture which must take place before it. [Allis, p.168-9] [/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]But the spread of Dispensationalism to America was greatly enhanced by the visits of Darby himself. Beginning in 1862 and on seven different occasions during the next fifteen years, Darby made extended visits to the United States and Canada. His letters reveal that he was in these countries for a period totaling six years. [Fuller 1957, p.68][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Broadcast by Darby's six visits to America and by the extensive literature campaign of the Brethren and other writers under their influence, pretribulationism spread rapidly. [Gundry, p.187][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif][Darby's] ideas achieved the ascendancy among the Plymouth Brethren. Dispensationalism then spread to America through the prolific writings of Darby and the Plymouth Brethren as well as through the numerous and extended visits of Darby himself. Chief among those who were influenced by Darby in America was James H. Brookes. Through his pen, his pulpit, through America's first annual summer Bible conference (the Niagara Conferences), he did much to popularize this teaching in America. But not the least of his influence for Dispensationalism came through the personal instruction he gave to C.I. Scofield, for in later years the Scofield Reference Bible became one of the chief means for bringing Dispensationalism to a position of great popularity among American Evangelicals. Near the close of his life, Scofield challenged Lewis Sperry Chafer to devote his life to teaching the Bible according to Dispensational principles. In 1924 Chafer founded a school, later to be known as Dallas Theological Seminary, which, along with numerous Bible Institutes arising at the close of World War I, did much to train ministers and Christian workers in Darbyism. [Fuller 1957, p.377-78][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Brookes had accepted a prophetic view remarkably close to that of the Plymouth Brethren and Brethren leader John Darby. It has been claimed that Brookes and Darby had been in personal contact when Darby passed through St Louis either in 1877 or on earlier trips. Scofield always claimed Brookes as a "Father on the Faith." Brookes was one of the group instrumental in bringing D. L. Moody to St. Louis for the 1879-1880 campaign. [Canfield, p.68][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]The large class of evangelists, of whom Dwight L. Moody was the most eminent, have drawn their inspiration and their Scriptural interpretation largely from the writings and personal influence of the Brethren. [Newman, vol. 2, p.713][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Scofield happened to be in the one city in North America, St Louis, which had been singled out by John Nelson Darby for concentrated "planting of the seed" of Darby's special brand of Bible teaching. [/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]During the summer of 1872, Darby wrote of the situation in St. Louis: "...had good opportunities and I am in pretty full intercourse with those exercised, among whom are more than one official minister." Harry Ironside claims that Darby preached in Brookes' pulpit. [Canfield, p.74/from Sandeen, p.75][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Oswald Allis notes that Brookes' Dispensational beliefs so closely resembled[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]...those of the Brethren that it seems clear that they were largely derived from them, Brookes gave no credit for them to Darby or any of the Brethren. This may be due to the fact that there were associations with the name of Darby which Brookes wished to avoid. [Allis, p.196] [/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]This sounds ironically similar to the way Darby wished to avoid letting people know he got his ideas from Irving.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]In the June 1897 issue of "The Truth" magazine, Scofield said of Brookes:[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]My own personal obligations to him are beyond words. He sought me in the first days of the Christian life and was my friend and first teacher in the oracles of God. [Canfield, p.147/ from The Truth, St. Louis, Mo., Charles B. Cox, Publisher, Vol XXIII, No.6, 1890 (sic, date??)][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]The 66 heading summaries for the individual books as placed in The Scofield Reference Bible are strictly in line with the thinking of the Brethren and Dispensational movements. [Canfield, p.209][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]The heart of the religious system which made Scofield's name famous is its prophetic stance. The proponents of that system claim that the Scofield prophetic ideas represent a recovery of "lost truths," lost since the early days of the church. That point is not confirmed by careful scholarship. [Canfield, p.122][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]The Scofield Reference Bible ... contained the most complete and available compendium of Dispensationalism. Chafer rose to the defense of Scofield's principles and in many instances expounded them with even greater detail and lucidity. In the writings of Lewis Sperry Chafer, and especially his eight-volume Systematic Theology, is to be found the most complete systematization of Dispensationalism. [Fuller 1957, 378][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif][The Scofield Reference Bible has] probably done as much to popularize the prophetic teachings of Darby and the Brethren as all other agencies put together [Allis, p. 14] [/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]This Bible contains the King James version of the Bible with a system of chain references and footnotes setting forth the doctrines of John Darby, which has been assiduously absorbed and zealously propagated by Dr. Scofield, who while rejecting Darby's ecclesiology, accepted his eschatology in its totality. [Murray, p.13] [/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]It was not until the first decade of the twentieth century that Dispensationalism, with its rapture theory, and the separation of the seventieth week from the previous sixty-nine weeks of years of Daniel 9, became general in the then newly forming Fundamentalist wing of Protestantism. This was largely brought about by the acceptance of Dr. C. I. Scofield's broad and revolutionary thesis, and the aggressive support given this postulate by the Moody Bible Institute of Chicago. [Emphasis mine.] [Froom, vol 4, p.1203-4][/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]I know the above is a lot to take in. I simply invite you to ask God what He wants you to do with it.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Thank you.[/FONT]
The ten horns are defined from the Book of Daniel, and we are told by Jesus in Rev.17 they are ten kings.
The seven heads we are told by Jesus also in Rev.17 represent 7 mountains.
Just in case you're going to try the geographical seven cities thing with Rome, know that Jerusalem was also in ancient times known as a city of seven hills. Yet, hills is not the definition our Lord Jesus was giving with the idea of 'seven mountains'. He was revealing seven areas of the earth, powers.
The seven heads we are told by Jesus also in Rev.17 represent 7 mountains.
Just in case you're going to try the geographical seven cities thing with Rome, know that Jerusalem was also in ancient times known as a city of seven hills. Yet, hills is not the definition our Lord Jesus was giving with the idea of 'seven mountains'. He was revealing seven areas of the earth, powers.
Something else I forgot to include in my previous answer.
In Rev.12:3-4 we are shown a beast kingdom that had ten horns, seven heads, and seven crowns, which is given with the timing when Satan drew a third of the stars (angels) to earth with him. That represents Satan's original rebellion against God in the time of old.
In Rev.13, which is for the end of this world, we are shown a beast kingdom with ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns. So what is different compared to that one at Satan's original rebellion?
In Rev.12:3-4 we are shown a beast kingdom that had ten horns, seven heads, and seven crowns, which is given with the timing when Satan drew a third of the stars (angels) to earth with him. That represents Satan's original rebellion against God in the time of old.
In Rev.13, which is for the end of this world, we are shown a beast kingdom with ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns. So what is different compared to that one at Satan's original rebellion?
EarnestQ, Like Ahwatukee said, many of us have come to the biblical conclusion regarding the pre-tribulational catching away of the church logically based upon scripture and not by Darby and Scofield. In fact, the pre-tribulational catching away was considered far before Darby and Scofield, and i'd argue that the very scriptures speak to the support of a pre-tribulational harpadzo. It was not something simply made up "recently" as some of the theologians in the first few centuries mentioned it.
I've learned many new words since coming to cc. Dispensationalism, Preterism, Amillenialism, etc and so forth.
The bible speaks of the dispensation of the Church, so that's nothing strange.
I just go by what the bible says, not all of these "fancy" words people want to bring up to show how much they have learned even though at this point we all know what they mean.
I've learned many new words since coming to cc. Dispensationalism, Preterism, Amillenialism, etc and so forth.
The bible speaks of the dispensation of the Church, so that's nothing strange.
I just go by what the bible says, not all of these "fancy" words people want to bring up to show how much they have learned even though at this point we all know what they mean.
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I would be grateful for some sources. All I have found is Dispensationalists, not the least of which are John Walvoord and Charles Ryrie, using the argument that since the early church believed in "immanency", they must be pre-tribulationists. They, it seems to me, intentionally do not mention that the early church thought they were already in the tribulation.
I have a quote (I think from Walvoord) that says the the early church believers were following false teachers because they considered themselves to be in the tribulation and, therefore, Christ could come at any minute.
They also admit that there is no evidence that the "pre-trib" rapture teaching existed until recent centuries. I can post the quotes if you like.
Nevertheless, you are free to disagree with me as you wish. I merely posted some of my notes on the subject. I am not really making any claims.
I have a quote (I think from Walvoord) that says the the early church believers were following false teachers because they considered themselves to be in the tribulation and, therefore, Christ could come at any minute.
They also admit that there is no evidence that the "pre-trib" rapture teaching existed until recent centuries. I can post the quotes if you like.
Nevertheless, you are free to disagree with me as you wish. I merely posted some of my notes on the subject. I am not really making any claims.
Let's not Forget that God is God, and if He wants to reanimate Moses body with Moses Spirit He can do it. Here is a list of people brought back from the dead. It is appointed for once to die, but God can have exceptions that HE chooses for His Glory. We also know NOTHING is impossible for God.
[h=3]Widow of Nain's son[/h](Lk 7:11-16) raised by Jesus
Jesus stopped a funeral procession as they were carrying the casket to the cemetery. Jesus had compassion on the weeping mother. He told her to stop crying, and then he raised her son from the dead.
[h=3]Synagogue ruler Jairus' 12-year-old daughter[/h](Mk 5:35-43) raised by Jesus
Jairus asked Jesus to come heal his dying daughter. By the time Jesus arrived she had already died. Jesus sent the mourners out, but took the girls' parents and Peter, James and John into the room where the dead girl lay. He said, "Little girl, get up." She did.
[h=3]Lazarus[/h](Jn 11:1-44) raised by Jesus
Lazarus had been in the grave four days when Jesus approached his tomb. Jesus asked the people to take away the stone. Then Jesus called out, "Lazarus, come forth." Lazarus came out, still wrapped in the strips of cloth. People had to help him out of them.
[h=3]Tabitha also known as Dorcas[/h](Acts 9:36-41) raised by Peter
Tabitha was a seamstress who did many good deeds. She got sick and died. Since Peter was in a nearby town they asked him to come. Peter had everyone leave the room where Tabitha lay. He knelt down and prayed and then he said to the body, "Tabitha, arise." She opened her eyes and then sat up.
[h=3]Eutychus[/h](Acts 20:7-12) raised by Paul
Late one night Paul was speaking to a group of believers. A young man was sitting in the window listening. He fell asleep and fell from the third story to his death. Paul ran down, laid himself over the body and then embraced him. He told everyone the boy was OK, and he was.
[h=3]Men raised upon Jesus' death[/h](Mt 27:51-53) raised by God
When Jesus died there was a violent earthquake and the veil in the temple was torn from top to bottom. The Bible says tombs were opened and many bodies of saints arose from the dead. It says that after Jesus' resurrection they went into Jerusalem where many people witnessed their return to life.
[h=3]Widow of Nain's son[/h](Lk 7:11-16) raised by Jesus
Jesus stopped a funeral procession as they were carrying the casket to the cemetery. Jesus had compassion on the weeping mother. He told her to stop crying, and then he raised her son from the dead.
[h=3]Synagogue ruler Jairus' 12-year-old daughter[/h](Mk 5:35-43) raised by Jesus
Jairus asked Jesus to come heal his dying daughter. By the time Jesus arrived she had already died. Jesus sent the mourners out, but took the girls' parents and Peter, James and John into the room where the dead girl lay. He said, "Little girl, get up." She did.
[h=3]Lazarus[/h](Jn 11:1-44) raised by Jesus
Lazarus had been in the grave four days when Jesus approached his tomb. Jesus asked the people to take away the stone. Then Jesus called out, "Lazarus, come forth." Lazarus came out, still wrapped in the strips of cloth. People had to help him out of them.
[h=3]Tabitha also known as Dorcas[/h](Acts 9:36-41) raised by Peter
Tabitha was a seamstress who did many good deeds. She got sick and died. Since Peter was in a nearby town they asked him to come. Peter had everyone leave the room where Tabitha lay. He knelt down and prayed and then he said to the body, "Tabitha, arise." She opened her eyes and then sat up.
[h=3]Eutychus[/h](Acts 20:7-12) raised by Paul
Late one night Paul was speaking to a group of believers. A young man was sitting in the window listening. He fell asleep and fell from the third story to his death. Paul ran down, laid himself over the body and then embraced him. He told everyone the boy was OK, and he was.
[h=3]Men raised upon Jesus' death[/h](Mt 27:51-53) raised by God
When Jesus died there was a violent earthquake and the veil in the temple was torn from top to bottom. The Bible says tombs were opened and many bodies of saints arose from the dead. It says that after Jesus' resurrection they went into Jerusalem where many people witnessed their return to life.
The patterns of parables don't change they still as shadows represent the eternal not seen. The timing is the last day the same day as judgement the same day believers will receive their new incorruptible bodies. .Just as with the flood or the raising of Lazarus or when the seventh trump was blown with Joshua.
The word thousand in Revelation 20 represents an unknown amount of time.The Amil position seem to work the best for me.
The word thousand in Revelation 20 represents an unknown amount of time.The Amil position seem to work the best for me.
Brother DP,
This dragon,
Now we see that that the dragon is actually "embodied" in the 7 heads and ten kings.
The dragon is seen as people, waters R 17:15, a city,
A city of 7 hills, yes,
But what was the city that was ruling over Israel at the time that this was written,
And for the next 1,900 yrs?
-----
R 17:10, And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come.
Five are gone, at the time of the writing of the Revelation. So they can't be future.
One is, Caesar was the one at John's time.
-----
Satan takes on a "body",
The body has 7 heads and ten horns.
The body of rulers and kings, the spirit of Satan manifest in men and kings.
Rome/Caesar, Rome/BoR
This dragon,
Now we see that that the dragon is actually "embodied" in the 7 heads and ten kings.
The dragon is seen as people, waters R 17:15, a city,
A city of 7 hills, yes,
But what was the city that was ruling over Israel at the time that this was written,
And for the next 1,900 yrs?
-----
R 17:10, And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come.
Five are gone, at the time of the writing of the Revelation. So they can't be future.
One is, Caesar was the one at John's time.
-----
Satan takes on a "body",
The body has 7 heads and ten horns.
The body of rulers and kings, the spirit of Satan manifest in men and kings.
Rome/Caesar, Rome/BoR
That's impossible, simply because the concept is nowhere written of in God's Word. To believe in a pre-trib rapture, which is a doctrine of men, one must be taught it by men. And that's where you guys learned it, you were taught it, probably since you were children from the type of Churches you attended.
This is very provable, because not until the 1800's did the pre-trib rapture theory even exist in any Christian Church.
This is very provable, because not until the 1800's did the pre-trib rapture theory even exist in any Christian Church.
Brother DP,
R 12:3-4,
The dragon is Satan himself, as you say,
And the dragon/beast is a spirit that is "embodied" in the flesh as a city, people, and kings.
But this is not the first beast, that he has been embodied in.
According to Dan 7, he is embodied in the 4th beast/nation.
So Satan was not embodied as the 4th beast nation at the time of his original rebellion in heaven.
--------
At the time of the birth and the being "caught up" of Jesus v5 (also see Acts 1:9 "taken up"),
Satan was embodied in Caesar and Rome, the 4th nation of Daniel chs 2 & 7.
----------
It may be that this would have been a phrase (dragged 1/3 of the stars) that was used to help us identify who the dragon was.
--------
An other possible thought, might come from the stars that are mentioned to be "a crown of twelve stars" v 1.
If the woman is Israel, who brought forth the man child,
Could the stars being dragged down, represent the religious leaders and others, of Israel, who were killed when Rome invaded and in the subsequent rebellions before the birth of Jesus?
If this is possible, then it would put the stars being dragged down, as just before the birth of Jesus.
R 12:3-4,
The dragon is Satan himself, as you say,
And the dragon/beast is a spirit that is "embodied" in the flesh as a city, people, and kings.
But this is not the first beast, that he has been embodied in.
According to Dan 7, he is embodied in the 4th beast/nation.
So Satan was not embodied as the 4th beast nation at the time of his original rebellion in heaven.
--------
At the time of the birth and the being "caught up" of Jesus v5 (also see Acts 1:9 "taken up"),
Satan was embodied in Caesar and Rome, the 4th nation of Daniel chs 2 & 7.
----------
It may be that this would have been a phrase (dragged 1/3 of the stars) that was used to help us identify who the dragon was.
--------
An other possible thought, might come from the stars that are mentioned to be "a crown of twelve stars" v 1.
If the woman is Israel, who brought forth the man child,
Could the stars being dragged down, represent the religious leaders and others, of Israel, who were killed when Rome invaded and in the subsequent rebellions before the birth of Jesus?
If this is possible, then it would put the stars being dragged down, as just before the birth of Jesus.
Brother DP,
R 12:3-4,
The dragon is Satan himself, as you say,
And the dragon/beast is a spirit that is "embodied" in the flesh as a city, people, and kings.
But this is not the first beast, that he has been embodied in.
According to Dan 7, he is embodied in the 4th beast/nation.
So Satan was not embodied as the 4th beast nation at the time of his original rebellion in heaven.
--------
At the time of the birth and the being "caught up" of Jesus v5 (also see Acts 1:9 "taken up"),
Satan was embodied in Caesar and Rome, the 4th nation of Daniel chs 2 & 7.
----------
It may be that this would have been a phrase (dragged 1/3 of the stars) that was used to help us identify who the dragon was.
--------
An other possible thought, might come from the stars that are mentioned to be "a crown of twelve stars" v 1.
If the woman is Israel, who brought forth the man child,
Could the stars being dragged down, represent the religious leaders and others, of Israel, who were killed when Rome invaded and in the subsequent rebellions before the birth of Jesus?
If this is possible, then it would put the stars being dragged down, as just before the birth of Jesus.
R 12:3-4,
The dragon is Satan himself, as you say,
And the dragon/beast is a spirit that is "embodied" in the flesh as a city, people, and kings.
But this is not the first beast, that he has been embodied in.
According to Dan 7, he is embodied in the 4th beast/nation.
So Satan was not embodied as the 4th beast nation at the time of his original rebellion in heaven.
--------
At the time of the birth and the being "caught up" of Jesus v5 (also see Acts 1:9 "taken up"),
Satan was embodied in Caesar and Rome, the 4th nation of Daniel chs 2 & 7.
----------
It may be that this would have been a phrase (dragged 1/3 of the stars) that was used to help us identify who the dragon was.
--------
An other possible thought, might come from the stars that are mentioned to be "a crown of twelve stars" v 1.
If the woman is Israel, who brought forth the man child,
Could the stars being dragged down, represent the religious leaders and others, of Israel, who were killed when Rome invaded and in the subsequent rebellions before the birth of Jesus?
If this is possible, then it would put the stars being dragged down, as just before the birth of Jesus.