THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE DOES NOT FIT LAST DAYS PROPHECY ABOUT NOAH

[DP]

I keep seeing those on the Pre-tribulational Rapture doctrine wrongly interpret what our Lord Jesus was teaching below using the flood of Noah's day in connection with events for the last days...

Luke 17:26-27
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
KJV


The Matthew 24 version...

Matt 24:38-39
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
KJV

In both accounts, Jesus is declaring how those outside the ark were destroyed, and taken.

In Luke 17, further down towards the end of the Chapter, Jesus shows about one taken and the other left. His disciples then ask Him, "Where, Lord" in the last verse, wanting to know where those would be taken to. His answer was about wherever the fowls eating dead carcase, that's where they would be taken to. So to be TAKEN, or being the first one TAKEN, is NOT... a Salvation analogy in God's Word at all.

Even in Isaiah 28, we are warned about those who refused to heed God's Word line upon line, precept upon precept, and God revealed the result of refusing to do that...

Isa 28:13
13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
KJV

That actually is our Heavenly Father's Message there, that those who refused study of His Word in that line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, and there a little, type method, then His Word would become a snare to those who refuse, and this so they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. In the Hebrews, the pronouncing of the words for "precept upon precept...", etc., is like a mocking song. It's about God mocking their refusal to do it His Way.

Because of this, God's Word has become a "rock of offense" for many. Those who heed the way God showed to study there can easily distinguish those preachers who grab a couple verses out of God's Word and go to town with it talking more about uncle Bob, their new house and car, etc., instead sticking to God's Holy Writ line upon line. A line upon line Bible teaching also keeps the opportunity for man to misteach, take away, or add to Scripture at a minimum. That's why those whom God did not call, that do not really know His Word, cannot teach His Word line upon line, chapter by chapter. They'll even laugh at you if ask them to do it that way.

That is why things happen like Pre-trib Rapture folk's misuse of the 'taken' idea from Luke 17 and Matt.24, when it is not a good thing at all, because it refers to the wicked and deceived being 'taken', i.e., those outside... Noah's ark.

 

[DP]

How the time of the flood of Noah is used as an analogy for the last days...

Rev 12:13-17
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
KJV

Firstly, what comes out of one's mouth? Words, yeah that's right.

Our Lord Jesus uses the flood of Noah's time as an idea in relation to the flood of waters that come out of the dragon's mouth after the symbolic woman (God's people, including Christ's Church which has the Testimony of Jesus Christ). The serpent's flood of waters is about LIES for the end, because it's words that come out of the mouth, not a literal flood of water.

God sealed the door of Noah's ark before the waters raised it up on top of the flood waters. It was upon the height of the flood waters for 150 days, or 5 months (old Hebrew reckoning). Then the waters receded, and the ark was again upon dry ground.

That is what our Lord Jesus is using as analogy for us during the tribulation timing. The time of that flood of waters out of the serpent's mouth represents the timing of the "great tribulation". Jesus Christ is our Ark of protection through that time, so we can ride on top of Satan's lies (flood) in that time. That is how our Lord is using this idea of a flood of waters in Rev.12 about the trib.

In Isaiah 8, God used this analogy of the enemy coming up against His people like a flood of waters coming in, referring to the kings of Assyria that would take the ten tribes into captivity, and also upon Judah in the southern kingdom.

Isa 8:7-17
7 Now therefore, behold, the Lord bringeth up upon them the waters of the river, strong and many, even the king of Assyria, and all his glory: and he shall come up over all his channels, and go over all his banks:
8 And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel.
9 Associate yourselves, O ye people, and ye shall be broken in pieces; and give ear, all ye of far countries: gird yourselves, and ye shall be broken in pieces; gird yourselves, and ye shall be broken in pieces.
10 Take counsel together, and it shall come to nought; speak the word, and it shall not stand: for God is with us.
11 For the LORD spake thus to me with a strong hand, and instructed me that I should not walk in the way of this people, saying,
12 Say ye not, A confederacy, to all them to whom this people shall say, A confederacy; neither fear ye their fear, nor be afraid.
13 Sanctify the LORD of hosts Himself; and let Him be your fear, and let Him be your dread.
14 And He shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.
16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among My disciples.
17 And I will wait upon the LORD, That hideth His face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for Him.
KJV

Those next Isaiah 9-17 verses actually have a latter day tribulation application. God warns of the confederacy of nations joining together to go against His people. What movement today do we see that happening with? World globalism, and the goal of a "one world government". God is saying here to not trust in it, but trust in Him instead, and wait for Him.

This is why it's important to study all of God's Word, and not just pieces of it. When you get to the idea of the waters as a flood out of the serpent's mouth in Rev.12, you should have already known about this concept of waters God used in the OT Books.

 

[tanakh]

What people seem to ignore is that after wiping out every living thing in the flood except those in the Ark, as soon as Noah and company climb out Noah gets himself drunk and naked starting the sin cycle all over again.

 

[mpaper345]

What people seem to ignore is that after wiping out every living thing in the flood except those in the Ark, as soon as Noah and company climb out Noah gets himself drunk and naked starting the sin cycle all over again.

Yah,that's not the way to celebrate being saved from the flood.They should of baked a cake,and used some party gifts.

 

[ladylynn]

Just goes to show., Salvation is of the Lord. Human's are way to stupid to save themselves. No sooner do we get saved from one problem, we are met with yet another. Thank God He sent Jesus Christ to save us once and for all!!

 

[Yahweh_is_gracious]

...looks like I have another night of study ahead of me. Bookmarked.

 

[popeye]

I keep seeing those on the Pre-tribulational Rapture doctrine wrongly interpret what our Lord Jesus was teaching below using the flood of Noah's day in connection with events for the last days...

Luke 17:26-27
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
KJV


The Matthew 24 version...

Matt 24:38-39
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
KJV

In both accounts, Jesus is declaring how those outside the ark were destroyed, and taken.

In Luke 17, further down towards the end of the Chapter, Jesus shows about one taken and the other left. His disciples then ask Him, "Where, Lord" in the last verse, wanting to know where those would be taken to. His answer was about wherever the fowls eating dead carcase, that's where they would be taken to. So to be TAKEN, or being the first one TAKEN, is NOT... a Salvation analogy in God's Word at all.

Even in Isaiah 28, we are warned about those who refused to heed God's Word line upon line, precept upon precept, and God revealed the result of refusing to do that...

Isa 28:13
13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
KJV

That actually is our Heavenly Father's Message there, that those who refused study of His Word in that line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, and there a little, type method, then His Word would become a snare to those who refuse, and this so they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. In the Hebrews, the pronouncing of the words for "precept upon precept...", etc., is like a mocking song. It's about God mocking their refusal to do it His Way.

Because of this, God's Word has become a "rock of offense" for many. Those who heed the way God showed to study there can easily distinguish those preachers who grab a couple verses out of God's Word and go to town with it talking more about uncle Bob, their new house and car, etc., instead sticking to God's Holy Writ line upon line. A line upon line Bible teaching also keeps the opportunity for man to misteach, take away, or add to Scripture at a minimum. That's why those whom God did not call, that do not really know His Word, cannot teach His Word line upon line, chapter by chapter. They'll even laugh at you if ask them to do it that way.

That is why things happen like Pre-trib Rapture folk's misuse of the 'taken' idea from Luke 17 and Matt.24, when it is not a good thing at all, because it refers to the wicked and deceived being 'taken', i.e., those outside... Noah's ark.

" two shall be in the bed. One taken,one left"

Lets play out your "wicked taken" hypothesis.

You have a righteous,on fire,sold out believer IN BED with a Satan worshipper that has the mark of the beast?

Ok,immediate fail.

Your deal is way,way,off.
No traction friend.

 

[NarrowRoadDisciple]

The Noah depiction does fit with the Pre-tribulational catching away biblically.

As it was in the days of Noah.....

Yes Luke 17 speaks of a time when the people were going about doing what they wanted to do without a thought to the correct doctrine and actions of a people created by God. Especially with the ungodly mixing between the sons of God and the daughters of mankind, you have an entire world that had all their thoughts on evil. So... God laid down a judgment on the entire earth. He restarted with the only man found righteous on the entire earth... Noah (and his family). So through Noah, God established a covenant. He wiped off all terrestrial life from the earth and had Noah build an ark so that animals could repopulate again. God establishes many times through scripture that the sin of mankind corrupts and defiles even the earth.

The Matthew 24 scripture does not contradict what Luke 17 said. When it says the wicked are taken away, the context is judgment. Those who were in the ark had the door closed, and everything outside the ark was dealt with in judgment... in that case, the destruction of terrestrial life on the entire world. In this manner, the taking away was death. Many people mistake this salvation depiction in the ark and say that we will have to go through the judgment. However, in the case of Noah, God saved the remnant and laid judgment down upon the rest of the world. Similarly, after Revelation 3, the door is shut on John the Revelator and judgment begins after. With Noah, the door to the ark was shut, and judgment began on the earth.

 

[Adstar]

What people seem to ignore is that after wiping out every living thing in the flood except those in the Ark, as soon as Noah and company climb out Noah gets himself drunk and naked starting the sin cycle all over again.

Well since Noah was just a like any other man a sinner why would there be a need to ignore that event?

Oh PS: I do not believe in the Pre0tribulation rapture.. I believe the rapture will happen on the day of the second coming of the LORD Jesus Christ..

 

[Yahweh_is_gracious]

This was a nice study tonight to look at the other side of the end times debate. I found some other sources to help me dig a little deeper. I can see why people spend a lot of time thinking about this topic. I still can't figure out what I believe. So far, nothing is really resonating with me as true. There is a bit here and there, but I just don't accept a particular view in it's entirety. Thanks for the thought provocation though. Rare that people can provoke thought in me, and it's appreciated when it is.

 

[DP]

The Noah depiction does fit with the Pre-tribulational catching away biblically.

Actually, it does not. The way Jesus used the event of Noah's day was about the wicked being 'taken', which was also His Message at the end of the Luke 17 Chapter when He was talking about two at the mill, one 'taken', and the other left. The one taken is what He compared the wicked and deceived to in Noah's day.

But the Pre-trib Rapture doctors preach it backwards, showing they didn't bother to read Luke 17 to the end, nor link Matt.24:28 to it about those 'taken' being like a dead "carcase" where the fowls are feasting.

 

[DP]

What people seem to ignore is that after wiping out every living thing in the flood except those in the Ark, as soon as Noah and company climb out Noah gets himself drunk and naked starting the sin cycle all over again.

There's more to that event of Noah being naked and getting drunk. See Leviticus 18 and 20 of what the phrase thy father's nakedness really means. Ham had sexual intercourse with his own mother, while Noah was drunk. That's where Ham's son Canaan came from. Ham uncovered His father's nakedness. Per Leviticus, thy father's nakedness is his wife.

 

[TMS]

For everything there's arguments for and against, go online and you'll find reasons to believe anything, reasons to believe the earth is flat and reasons to believe it is a globe. "WHAT IS TRUTH !" Put pride aside and ask the Lord to show you and He will. He told me, "No one knows the day or the hour of His coming" and "now (today) is the day of salvation". If there is a rapture before His coming than if i'm ready today i have nothing to worry about. If He comes like a thief and that's it, the saved are safe and the unsaved die, i don't need to worry if i'm ready today.

Look to the origin of tre-trib rapture it helped me to decide what is truth.

 

[Ahwatukee]

He told me, "No one knows the day or the hour of His coming" and "now (today) is the day of salvation"

You are correct that no one can know the day or the hour and that because there are no signs preceding His imminent appearing to gather his church. But for those who put the churches gathering as being the same event as when he returns to the earth to end the age, there are a whole lot of events that must take place prior to his return, namely the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which are the wrath of God. The other events would be those of the antichrist when he makes his seven year covenant and his setting up of the abomination, which would mark the middle of that seven year period. According to Revelation, Jesus return to the earth can only take place after the 7th bowl has been poured out and not before. If I was on the earth during that time, I could follow Revelation like a road map. I would know everything that was going to happen one after another. On the other hand, the gathering of the church is not like that, as there are no signs preceding the Bridegroom coming for his bride.

 

[PennEd]

In our western, Greek way of thinking we look at prophecy from a prediction then outcome model.
The Jews of the day looked more at prophecy from a pattern or similitude way of thinking. Abraham's sacrifice of his son. ( I know God told him not to go through with it),is the classic model or pattern that foreshadows God sacrificing His Son.

So the model or similitude about the end times is Enoch being "caught up or snatched by God" PRIOR to the flood judgment, represents the Church "harpazoed or raptured".
Noah and His family models those who will be saved THROUGH the tribulation judgment.

In both cases the wicked, unbeliving lost suffer judgment.

This is my view. I don't proport to say that my understanding is definitively right or other people's understanding is wrong.
God bless you all.

 

[DP]

For everything there's arguments for and against, go online and you'll find reasons to believe anything, reasons to believe the earth is flat and reasons to believe it is a globe. "WHAT IS TRUTH !" Put pride aside and ask the Lord to show you and He will. He told me, "No one knows the day or the hour of His coming" and "now (today) is the day of salvation". If there is a rapture before His coming than if i'm ready today i have nothing to worry about. If He comes like a thief and that's it, the saved are safe and the unsaved die, i don't need to worry if i'm ready today.

Look to the origin of tre-trib rapture it helped me to decide what is truth.

The reason why you got fed-up and just decided to adopt a doctrine of men (pre-trib) and be done with it, is because you lost your patience in study of God's Word. Who caused that, was it from not asking God directly for understanding, or was it from relying on some preacher? The latter no doubt.

God will show us, IF... we ask Him. He said don't rely on man for the Truth (Isaiah 2:22).

 

[DP]

In our western, Greek way of thinking we look at prophecy from a prediction then outcome model.
The Jews of the day looked more at prophecy from a pattern or similitude way of thinking. Abraham's sacrifice of his son. ( I know God told him not to go through with it),is the classic model or pattern that foreshadows God sacrificing His Son.

So the model or similitude about the end times is Enoch being "caught up or snatched by God" PRIOR to the flood judgment, represents the Church "harpazoed or raptured".
Noah and His family models those who will be saved THROUGH the tribulation judgment.

In both cases the wicked, unbeliving lost suffer judgment.

This is my view. I don't proport to say that my understanding is definitively right or other people's understanding is wrong.
God bless you all.

If that's how things work, then we ought see Moses come back upon Mt. Sinai and lead the children of Israel out of all nations back to the lands of promise. Although God does at times use patterns of history for an up coming future event, He still gave us the prophetic parameters to know what is to occur. In other words, He doesn't expect us to see an old pattern repeat exactly.

 

[abcdef]

How the time of the flood of Noah is used as an analogy for the last days...

Rev 12:13-17
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
KJV

Firstly, what comes out of one's mouth? Words, yeah that's right.

Our Lord Jesus uses the flood of Noah's time as an idea in relation to the flood of waters that come out of the dragon's mouth after the symbolic woman (God's people, including Christ's Church which has the Testimony of Jesus Christ). The serpent's flood of waters is about LIES for the end, because it's words that come out of the mouth, not a literal flood of water.

God sealed the door of Noah's ark before the waters raised it up on top of the flood waters. It was upon the height of the flood waters for 150 days, or 5 months (old Hebrew reckoning). Then the waters receded, and the ark was again upon dry ground.

That is what our Lord Jesus is using as analogy for us during the tribulation timing. The time of that flood of waters out of the serpent's mouth represents the timing of the "great tribulation". Jesus Christ is our Ark of protection through that time, so we can ride on top of Satan's lies (flood) in that time. That is how our Lord is using this idea of a flood of waters in Rev.12 about the trib.

In Isaiah 8, God used this analogy of the enemy coming up against His people like a flood of waters coming in, referring to the kings of Assyria that would take the ten tribes into captivity, and also upon Judah in the southern kingdom.

Isa 8:7-17
7 Now therefore, behold, the Lord bringeth up upon them the waters of the river, strong and many, even the king of Assyria, and all his glory: and he shall come up over all his channels, and go over all his banks:
8 And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel.
9 Associate yourselves, O ye people, and ye shall be broken in pieces; and give ear, all ye of far countries: gird yourselves, and ye shall be broken in pieces; gird yourselves, and ye shall be broken in pieces.
10 Take counsel together, and it shall come to nought; speak the word, and it shall not stand: for God is with us.
11 For the LORD spake thus to me with a strong hand, and instructed me that I should not walk in the way of this people, saying,
12 Say ye not, A confederacy, to all them to whom this people shall say, A confederacy; neither fear ye their fear, nor be afraid.
13 Sanctify the LORD of hosts Himself; and let Him be your fear, and let Him be your dread.
14 And He shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.
16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among My disciples.
17 And I will wait upon the LORD, That hideth His face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for Him.
KJV

Those next Isaiah 9-17 verses actually have a latter day tribulation application. God warns of the confederacy of nations joining together to go against His people. What movement today do we see that happening with? World globalism, and the goal of a "one world government". God is saying here to not trust in it, but trust in Him instead, and wait for Him.

This is why it's important to study all of God's Word, and not just pieces of it. When you get to the idea of the waters as a flood out of the serpent's mouth in Rev.12, you should have already known about this concept of waters God used in the OT Books.

Brother DP,

The Dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns represents The Beast/Rome.

See how in R 12:1-6, v4, the dragon/beast/Rome, waits to kill Jesus, this was king Herod when Jesus was born.

In R 12:7-12, Satan is cast out of heaven/bound and thrown down on the day of Pentecost.
--
A short time frame of the binding:

1. Jesus dies on the cross

2. Jesus' spirit descends to Hades, paradise side, Abraham's bosom

3. Rises, ascends to the Father with a host of captives, Eph 4:8-10, all the OT saints (John the Baptist, Thief on the cross, etc.)

4. War in heaven, Satan is bound and cast down on the day of Pentecost. (Satan cannot return to heaven, in the context of this passage, that is how he is bound).

It says in R 12:10 salvation has come, salvation came to us by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost.

It also says, The Kingdom came also. The presence of the kingdom on earth (indwelling of the Holy Spirit) was begun on Pentecost. We are in a spiritual kingdom.
---
R 12:13-17,

v 13, The dragon with 7 heads and ten horns (v 3) Rome, persecutes the Woman, Israel, after the Day of Pentecost.

v 14, The natural branches, who flee to the wilderness (a place prepared 12:6), are the ones who were to "flee to the mountains" at the destruction of Jerusalem in Lk 21:20-24.

The 3 1/2 ts, is the times of the gentiles (second half, 70 ad-1967) which lasts until Israel is restored to Jerusalem.

v15, As you pointed out, the waters are people and words.

By order of Caesar, Rome sent out her armies, destroyed Jerusalem and chased the woman (natural branches).

v 16, The earth helped the woman......opened her mouth.......swallowed up the flood

In the days when this was written they thought that everything was made of 4 elements.

Air, water, earth, and fire.

The story of Noah shows the withdrawing of God's blessings on the element earth,

With the flooding waters represent darkness and death, overpowering the other elements,

Fire- no sunlight or fire on the earth.

Air- the windows of heaven were opened, the air was saturate.

Earth- the earth was covered in water

When the earth element was cleansed the waters withdrew

In Gen 9:8-17, 15 & 16, God says that He won't destroy the earth by water again.

This is the promise that allows the earth to help the woman.

If the Dragon/Rome could have chased Israel to the ends of the planet, they would have.

the RCC for 1500 yrs has attacked Israel.

Jesus said that if these were silent, the very stones themselves would cry out,

And that God is able to raise up children of Abraham from these stones,

So in this case it is God's blessings on the earth at Noah's time, that help the earth swallow up the armies of Rome.

 

[EarnestQ]

For everything there's arguments for and against, go online and you'll find reasons to believe anything, reasons to believe the earth is flat and reasons to believe it is a globe. "WHAT IS TRUTH !" Put pride aside and ask the Lord to show you and He will. He told me, "No one knows the day or the hour of His coming" and "now (today) is the day of salvation". If there is a rapture before His coming than if i'm ready today i have nothing to worry about. If He comes like a thief and that's it, the saved are safe and the unsaved die, i don't need to worry if i'm ready today.

Look to the origin of tre-trib rapture it helped me to decide what is truth.

Start with Edward Irving and John Darby.

Edward Irving and some of his friends came up the pre-trib "rapture" (and the other major tenets of Dispensationalism) at the Albury Prophecy Conferences in the late 1820's. (See "Dialogs on Prophecy" in which they recorded their discussions.)

Irving was good friends with Lady Powerscourt. His family stayed with her in late summer of 1830. (See "Life of Irving" by Oliphant.)

Lady Powerscourt was so impressed with the Albury Conferences (she is reported to have attended at least one), that she created her own series of conferences (the Powerscourt Prophecy Conferences) in the early to mid 1830's.

All Dispensationalists (the original definers of the of the pre-trib rapture) trace their beginnings from these conferences.

Whether or not you subscribe to the pre-trib rapture (I am not claiming one way or the other), this how it began.

There has never been any teaching like it in the history of the church.

Dispensationalists often show that the early church believed that Christ could come at any minute (immanency) and therefore they believed in the pre-trib rapture. What Dispensationalists do not mention (because it would contradict their theology) is that the early church believed they were already in the tribulation.

There is no writing anywhere, that I am aware of, that indicated surprise on the part of the early church because they considered themselves to be in the tribulation already and had not yet been "raptured".

They believed themselves to already be in the tribulation, THEREFORE, Christ could come back at any moment.

​

The pre-trib rapture concept started in the late 1820's, and it is my opinion that John Darby created Dispensationalism to justify it.

I am not really interested in reading a lot of hate posts from Dispensationalists and pre-tribbers. I used to believe in that myself, but when I tried to put it all together from my Bible, it fell apart.

For those who want to get to the bottom of the matter, the above is a place to start. If you are offended, then I pray we both may desire the truth of God and His wisdom more fully in our lives.

One more point, if I may, it was John Darby who came up with the seventieth week (Daniel 9:27) applying to the anti-Christ. In all the centuries before, it was taught that the first three and a half years was Christ confirming his covenant with many.

It is my opinion that the second three and a half years apply to the tribulation. There is no other reason in the Bible to presume the tribulation is seven years long. It only comes from John Darby's "questionable" interpretation.
​

Thank you for taking the time to read this.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Start with Edward Irving and John Darby.

Edward Irving and some of his friends came up the pre-trib "rapture" (and the other major tenets of Dispensationalism) at the Albury Prophecy Conferences in the late 1820's. (See "Dialogs on Prophecy" in which they recorded their discussions.)

Irving was good friends with Lady Powerscourt. His family stayed with her in late summer of 1830. (See "Life of Irving" by Oliphant.)

Lady Powerscourt was so impressed with the Albury Conferences (she is reported to have attended at least one), that she created her own series of conferences (the Powerscourt Prophecy Conferences) in the early to mid 1830's.

All Dispensationalists (the original definers of the of the pre-trib rapture) trace their beginnings from these conferences.

Whether or not you subscribe to the pre-trib rapture (I am not claiming one way or the other), this how it began.

There has never been any teaching like it in the history of the church.

Dispensationalists often show that the early church believed that Christ could come at any minute (immanency) and therefore they believed in the pre-trib rapture. What Dispensationalists do not mention (because it would contradict their theology) is that the early church believed they were already in the tribulation.

There is no writing anywhere, that I am aware of, that indicated surprise on the part of the early church because they considered themselves to be in the tribulation already and had not yet been "raptured".

They believed themselves to already be in the tribulation, THEREFORE, Christ could come back at any moment.

​

The pre-trib rapture concept started in the late 1820's, and it is my opinion that John Darby created Dispensationalism to justify it.

I am not really interested in reading a lot of hate posts from Dispensationalists and pre-tribbers. I used to believe in that myself, but when I tried to put it all together from my Bible, it fell apart.

For those who want to get to the bottom of the matter, the above is a place to start. If you are offended, then I pray we both may desire the truth of God and His wisdom more fully in our lives.

One more point, if I may, it was John Darby who came up with the seventieth week (Daniel 9:27) applying to the anti-Christ. In all the centuries before, it was taught that the first three and a half years was Christ confirming his covenant with many.

It is my opinion that the second three and a half years apply to the tribulation. There is no other reason in the Bible to presume the tribulation is seven years long. It only comes from John Darby's "questionable" interpretation.
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Thank you for taking the time to read this.

Hello EarnestQ,

I respectfully disagree regarding Edward Irving and John Darby and that because I have never read anything by either of these men. I have spent over 40 years of my own studies on eschatology and my understanding of the Lord gathering the church prior to that last seven years comes from scripture, not from men. This lack of understand of the timing of the Lord's gathering, come from two major issues:

1) not recognizing the gathering of the church as being a separate event from the Lord's physical return to the earth to end the age.

2) Not understanding the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. In conjunction with this, is the lack of understanding and believing in God's promise that we are not appointed to suffer his coming wrath (1 Thes.5:9,
1 Thes.1:10, Rev.3:10) and that because the wrath that we deserve was poured out on Jesus and was thereby satisfied for all believers.

So, my understanding of the timing of the gathering of the church comes from scripture and not from the teachings of men, just as it has for many others.

Jesus is not going to send his bride through his wrath before getting married to her.