Israel

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Status
Not open for further replies.

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
2,111
113
51
#1
Who is the true Israel? This should be interesting.
 
Oct 1, 2009
296
3
0
#2
I'm doing a systematic run through Romans right now. At first I thought Israel was the mix of Jews and Gentiles. Nope, Israel is just that, Israel.
 
G

glenwood74

Guest
#3
Israel is Jacob. Jacob wrestled with God for His forgiveness and His blessing. Israel means 'he who wrestled with God and overcome'. Israel was the Father of the twelve tribes, thirteen if you count Joseph's sons as half tribes.
 
Dec 19, 2009
2,723
7
0
#4
forgive me if you feel my answer is off track.

A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumsision merely outward and physical. No a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart by the Spirit, not by the written code. Rom2:28&29

For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh. Phil3:3

Does this mean the Christian is a true Jew and therefore the true Israel?
 
Apr 9, 2010
1
0
0
#5
Israel is Jacob. Jacob wrestled with God for His forgiveness and His blessing. Israel means 'he who wrestled with God and overcome'. Israel was the Father of the twelve tribes, thirteen if you count Joseph's sons as half tribes.
no it is still just twelve for :
Re 7:5Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.Re 7:6Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.Re 7:7Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.Re 7:8Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
 
Last edited:
S

Shwagga

Guest
#6
True Israel is the faithful remnant of children of Abraham or children of faith who are currently blinded so that Gentiles can be grafted in so that would mean Israel is ALSO Gentiles who believe in the Messiah which are now grafted into Israel (romans 11).

Based on some of your previous posts (a while back) regarding Calvinism, which I believe you hold to, my guess would be you also believe in Covenant theology.

A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumsision merely outward and physical. No a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart by the Spirit, not by the written code. Rom2:28&29
Try to look at it this way....

Picture two Jewish people, both are circumcised physically, one is NOT circumcised of the heart by the Spirit and the other is circumcised of the heart.

Now, out of these two Jews, which is the TRUE Jew?

It wouldn't really make sense for Paul to be saying, or even insist he would be saying that a Gentile is a Jew, when he is an apostle to the Gentiles. I think he was just contrasting between two Jews and who is the true Jew out of the two? The one who is rightly circumcised of the heart.

Does this mean the Christian is a true Jew and therefore the true Israel?
No.
 
Last edited:
Feb 9, 2010
2,486
39
0
#7
Israel is Israel.Jews are Jews physical.Gentiles are Gentiles physical.Nobody is a Jew physical but a Jew.

The Church is Jews and Gentiles which will rule on earth with Israel being the mighty kingdom on earth and the new heaven and new earth is called the New Jerusalem.

The Bible says that the Church is one that is a Jew inward.All the Church is Jews inward.

God will restore the kingdom back on earth to the Jews in the millennial reign of Christ.

The Jews knew that God would restore the kingdom back to them one day and they asked Jesus will He restore the kingdom to Israel at that time.Jesus said it is not for them to know but the Father knows when He will restore the kingdom back to them(Acts 1:6-7).

Jesus said the Jews will not see Him again until they say blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord.

God will send them 2 witnesses to turn their hearts to the truth that Jesus is their Lord(Revelation 11).They will turn to Jesus as their Messiah and now they can see Him.

At the battle of armageddon the Jews will know that Jesus is their Messiah and call upon Him when the world goes against them and Jesus will come back with His saints and fight the world and save Israel.

The Bible says that Israel is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in,and so all Israel will be saved.

Not all Israel will be saved spiritually but all Israel will be saved physically and Israel will be the mighty nation in the millennial reign of Christ.

God said he is going to gather all nations against Israel then he shall go forth and fight against those nations like in did in the day of battle.The plague that will come upon them is their flesh will melt off their bones and the Bible says that Jesus shall destroy the antichrist with the brightness of His coming.

God said He is going to make a full end of all Gentile nations but He will not make a full end of Israel,but they will not be wholly unpunished but be punished in part.

The Bible says after they have borne their shame God will restore the kingdom back to the Jews and the heathen shall know that Israel went in to captivity because of their iniquities against God so God hid His face from them but now He will have mercy on them.

After the battle of armageddon when Jesus saves the Jews,He will set up His millennial reign,and restore the kingdom back to the Jews,and rule out of Jerusalem on the throne of David.

God will leave a sixth part of the world that fought against the Jews and that is the people who Jesus and His saints will rule over.

They will be in the flesh and will mulitiply on earth and will go against Jesus and the saints towards the end of the millennial reign and God will send fire down on them.

Like Jesus said the one with 10 talents shall rule over 10 cities.The one with 5 talents shall rule over 5 cities.

God has a purpose for Israel,the Jews,to restore the kingdom back to them in the millennial reign of Christ.

The Bible says that God has not cast off His people but after they have borne their shame the kingdom will be restored back to them.

God has a purpose for the Church both Jew and Gentile that are all Jews inward to reign on earth with Jesus for 1000 years,and to be at the new earth and new heaven,the New Jerusalem,the place where Jesus went to prepare for the saints.

God has a purpose for the nation of Israel,the Jews only,to restore the kingdom back to them in the millennial reign of Christ and all Gentile nations shall fall.Jesus and the saints both Jew and Gentile will rule the earth but the physical kingdom on earth will be the nation of Israel.The nation of Israel will be the only kingdom in the millennial reign of Christ for all Gentile nations will fall.

God said when He plants His people back on their land which happened when Israel became a nation again(1948),that they would never be plucked up again.That is because God has the plan to restore the kingdom back to the Jews in the millennial reign of Christ.

Ever since the year 1948 when Israel became a nation,the whole world could of went against them in 1948 when they became a nation and they would not of prospered.The whole world can go against them now and they will fail because Israel will never go down again.

The people that Jesus and the saints rule over will have to go up every year to Jerusalem to keep the feast of tabernacles.The reason is that they have to keep that phsical ordinance to keep them right with God because they are in the flesh.

6When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power(Acts 1:6-7).

Fear thou not, O Jacob my servant, saith the LORD: for I am with thee; for I will make a full end of all the nations whither I have driven thee: but I will not make a full end of thee, but correct thee in measure; yet will I not leave thee wholly unpunished(Jeremiah 46:28).



Zechariah 14

1Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. 12And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth(Zechariah 14:1-12).

Matt
 
Last edited:

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
2,111
113
51
#8
mpaper:::::The Jews knew that God would restore the kingdom back to them one day and they asked Jesus will He restore the kingdom to Israel at that time.Jesus said it is not for them to know but the Father knows when He will restore the kingdom back to them(Acts 1:6-7).
Hi mpaper your context above is wrong. you have totally removed the context by adding your own words not in that scripture.

Phil
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
2,111
113
51
#9
Jesus said the Jews will not see Him again until they say blessed is He that comes in the name of
another one mpaper?
 
Feb 9, 2010
2,486
39
0
#10
6When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power(Acts 1:6-7).

The Jews asked Jesus if He would restore the kingdom back to them at that time that Jesus talked to them at the mount of Olives because they knew that God would restore the kingdom back to them because it is in the Old Testament.Jesus said it is not for them to know but the Father only knows when He will restore the kingdom to them.

I did not speak out of context.

37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord(Matthew 23:37-39).

Jesus said the Jews would not see Him until they said blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord which means the Jews would not see Him again until the nation recognizes Jesus as their Messiah which God will work on them to turn their hearts to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah.

I did not speak out of context.

God is going to restore the kingdom on earth back to the Jews in the millennial reign of Christ.

Fear thou not, O Jacob my servant, saith the LORD: for I am with thee; for I will make a full end of all the nations whither I have driven thee: but I will not make a full end of thee, but correct thee in measure; yet will I not leave thee wholly unpunished(Jeremiah 46:28).

Matt
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
2,111
113
51
#11
I have a question for you mpaper,, when they say 'Kingdom of God/Heaven what did they mean even at that point? now what is the eschatological expectation after this point reagrding this same Kingdom that all believers are in, on the basis of the work of Christ?
 
S

Shwagga

Guest
#12
So is that correct to assume you hold to Covenant Theology, Phil ?
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
2,111
113
51
#13
So is that correct to assume you hold to Covenant Theology, Phil ?

Well I am reformed that is very true.. but you do realise shwagga that not all those with reformed theology hold to amillennialism!
That being said.. Salvation and redemptive history are all under covenant.

Phil
 
S

Shwagga

Guest
#14
Well I am reformed that is very true.. but you do realise shwagga that not all those with reformed theology hold to amillennialism!
That being said.. Salvation and redemptive history are all under covenant.

Phil
So then, to take a shot at your own question, who do you believe true Israel is?
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
2,111
113
51
#15
Well, I can say I am not 100% convinced on pre or post mellenniasm, I still hold an amillienniasm position.

but I'll repeat the question i gave to mpaper:

when they say 'Kingdom of God/Heaven (as in Acts 1) what did they mean even at that point? now what is the eschatological expectation during and before and also after this point regarding this same Kingdom that all believers are in, on the basis of the work of Christ?


Phil
 
S

Shwagga

Guest
#16
Well, I can say I am not 100% convinced on pre or post mellenniasm, I still hold an amillienniasm position.

but I'll repeat the question i gave to mpaper:

when they say 'Kingdom of God/Heaven (as in Acts 1) what did they mean even at that point? now what is the eschatological expectation during and before and also after this point regarding this same Kingdom that all believers are in, on the basis of the work of Christ?


Phil
Maybe I'm missing something obvious here, but can you please clarify what eschatology has to do with who Israel is?
 
M

machew

Guest
#17
Paul seems to always make a distinction between Jews and Gentiles when referring to his mission to reach the people outside of Israel. So to me it would seem that the two are separate, though it is true that we were grafted in as co-heirs with Christ.
 
I

Israel

Guest
#18
To find who who are the real physical tribes of Israel, one can start by knowing the curses of Deuteronomy for their disobedience. Then apply those to who fits in the world today!
 
S

Shwagga

Guest
#19
To find who who are the real physical tribes of Israel, one can start by knowing the curses of Deuteronomy for their disobedience. Then apply those to who fits in the world today!
  • What????????
 
I

Israel

Guest
#20
Deuteronomy 28:28-68

The LORD shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not borrow.

13And the LORD shall make thee the head, and not the tail; and thou shalt be above only, and thou shalt not be beneath; if that thou hearken unto the commandments of the LORD thy God, which I command thee this day, to observe and to do them:
14And thou shalt not go aside from any of the words which I command thee this day, to the right hand, or to the left, to go after other gods to serve them.
15But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:
16Cursed shalt thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field.
17Cursed shall be thy basket and thy store.
18Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy land, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.
19Cursed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and cursed shalt thou be when thou goest out.
20The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me.
21The LORD shall make the pestilence cleave unto thee, until he have consumed thee from off the land, whither thou goest to possess it.
22The LORD shall smite thee with a consumption, and with a fever, and with an inflammation, and with an extreme burning, and with the sword, and with blasting, and with mildew; and they shall pursue thee until thou perish.
23And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron.
24The LORD shall make the rain of thy land powder and dust: from heaven shall it come down upon thee, until thou be destroyed.
25The LORD shall cause thee to be smitten before thine enemies: thou shalt go out one way against them, and flee seven ways before them: and shalt be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth.
26And thy carcase shall be meat unto all fowls of the air, and unto the beasts of the earth, and no man shall fray them away.
27The LORD will smite thee with the botch of Egypt, and with the emerods, and with the scab, and with the itch, whereof thou canst not be healed.
28The LORD shall smite thee with madness, and blindness, and astonishment of heart:
29And thou shalt grope at noonday, as the blind gropeth in darkness, and thou shalt not prosper in thy ways: and thou shalt be only oppressed and spoiled evermore, and no man shall save thee.
30Thou shalt betroth a wife, and another man shall lie with her: thou shalt build an house, and thou shalt not dwell therein: thou shalt plant a vineyard, and shalt not gather the grapes thereof.
31Thine ox shall be slain before thine eyes, and thou shalt not eat thereof: thine ass shall be violently taken away from before thy face, and shall not be restored to thee: thy sheep shall be given unto thine enemies, and thou shalt have none to rescue them.
32Thy sons and thy daughters shall be given unto another people, and thine eyes shall look, and fail with longing for them all the day long; and there shall be no might in thine hand.
33The fruit of thy land, and all thy labours, shall a nation which thou knowest not eat up; and thou shalt be only oppressed and crushed alway:
34So that thou shalt be mad for the sight of thine eyes which thou shalt see.
35The LORD shall smite thee in the knees, and in the legs, with a sore botch that cannot be healed, from the sole of thy foot unto the top of thy head.
36The LORD shall bring thee, and thy king which thou shalt set over thee, unto a nation which neither thou nor thy fathers have known; and there shalt thou serve other gods, wood and stone.
37And thou shalt become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword, among all nations whither the LORD shall lead thee.
38Thou shalt carry much seed out into the field, and shalt gather but little in; for the locust shall consume it.
39Thou shalt plant vineyards, and dress them, but shalt neither drink of the wine, nor gather the grapes; for the worms shall eat them.
40Thou shalt have olive trees throughout all thy coasts, but thou shalt not anoint thyself with the oil; for thine olive shall cast his fruit.
41Thou shalt beget sons and daughters, but thou shalt not enjoy them; for they shall go into captivity.
42All thy trees and fruit of thy land shall the locust consume.
43The stranger that is within thee shall get up above thee very high; and thou shalt come down very low.
44He shall lend to thee, and thou shalt not lend to him: he shall be the head, and thou shalt be the tail.
45Moreover all these curses shall come upon thee, and shall pursue thee, and overtake thee, till thou be destroyed; because thou hearkenedst not unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which he commanded thee:
46And they shall be upon thee for a sign and for a wonder, and upon thy seed for ever.
47Because thou servedst not the LORD thy God with joyfulness, and with gladness of heart, for the abundance of all things;
48Therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which the LORD shall send against thee, in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in want of all things: and he shall put a yoke of iron upon thy neck, until he have destroyed thee.
49The LORD shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand;
50A nation of fierce countenance, which shall not regard the person of the old, nor shew favour to the young:
51And he shall eat the fruit of thy cattle, and the fruit of thy land, until thou be destroyed: which also shall not leave thee either corn, wine, or oil, or the increase of thy kine, or flocks of thy sheep, until he have destroyed thee.
52And he shall besiege thee in all thy gates, until thy high and fenced walls come down, wherein thou trustedst, throughout all thy land: and he shall besiege thee in all thy gates throughout all thy land, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.
53And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the LORD thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee:
54So that the man that is tender among you, and very delicate, his eye shall be evil toward his brother, and toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the remnant of his children which he shall leave:
55So that he will not give to any of them of the flesh of his children whom he shall eat: because he hath nothing left him in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee in all thy gates.
56The tender and delicate woman among you, which would not adventure to set the sole of her foot upon the ground for delicateness and tenderness, her eye shall be evil toward the husband of her bosom, and toward her son, and toward her daughter,
57And toward her young one that cometh out from between her feet, and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall eat them for want of all things secretly in the siege and straitness, wherewith thine enemy shall distress thee in thy gates.
58If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD;
59Then the LORD will make thy plagues wonderful, and the plagues of thy seed, even great plagues, and of long continuance, and sore sicknesses, and of long continuance.
60Moreover he will bring upon thee all the diseases of Egypt, which thou wast afraid of; and they shall cleave unto thee.
61Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the LORD bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed.
62And ye shall be left few in number, whereas ye were as the stars of heaven for multitude; because thou wouldest not obey the voice of the LORD thy God.
63And it shall come to pass, that as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it.
64And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.
65And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest: but the LORD shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind:
66And thy life shall hang in doubt before thee; and thou shalt fear day and night, and shalt have none assurance of thy life:
67In the morning thou shalt say, Would God it were even! and at even thou shalt say, Would God it were morning! for the fear of thine heart wherewith thou shalt fear, and for the sight of thine eyes which thou shalt see. 68And the LORD shall bring thee into Egypt again with ships, by the way whereof I spake unto thee, Thou shalt see it no more again: and there ye shall be sold unto your enemies for bondmen and bondwomen, and no man shall buy you.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.