Crisis of faith and the reality of the Holy Spirit

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Simeon

Guest
#1
Yes, I'm going through a serious crisis of faith. Here is where I am at:

Faith is a belief in something that is secure and unconcerned with logic and reason.


Faith means believing in something even though there is no reason to. Faith is choosing to be more confident that you would be if you were relying solely on evidence. The idea is that evidence takes you only so far, faith takes you the rest of the way. Faith is by definition unreasonable. If faith was reasonable, we would call it reason. Kierkergaard said that.

Only through the Holy Spirit can we find justification for faith as the holy Spirit is supposed to let us know what is truth and what is lies in what we believe through faith. Without the Holy Spirit faith is empty and we « just believe ». If faith is empty and not a reliable arbiter of truth, then the concept of the word of God in the bible, eternal soul, heaven, hell, God, Jesus and holy spirit are themselves nothing more than wishfull thinking. The whole edifice of christianity comes crumbling down around us if we can't justify our faith with the apport from the Holy Spirit itself.

We then need to answer those two questions, they are crucial for our faith :

How do we make sure we're filled with the holy Spirit, and not an evil lying demon pretending to be the Holy Spirit?

How do we separate the influence of the Holy Spirit from the cognitive falacy of confirmation bias?

If we can't answer those questions, then our faith could be influenced by an evil lying demon or by confirmation bias and we'd have no way to tell. In either case that would mean we could be deluded about christianity. Not a happy thought. Being deluded by confirmation bias, on the face of it, is much more probable than being influenced by the Holy Spirit, because we know some people are deluded by confirmation bias all the time when they believe weird stuff, but the existence of the Holy Spirit is not exactly scientific fact, it doesn't manifest itself in any other way than through our faith. So we need an assurance that the Holy Spirit is really guiding us and that we are not deluded about it.

What assurance do we have beside our faith itself that the Holy Spirit is really guiding us ?

Please help me answer those questions, people.
 

breno785au

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2013
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#2
An evil lying spirit cannot have a person display the fruit of the Holy Spirit. You will see a transformed life of a person under the influence of the Holy Spirit. A demon controls, Holy Spirit guides.
Reasoning? It really is unreasonable to consider our faith as Christians unreasonable when men who walked with, ate with and touched Jesus recorded their experiences and what they saw. And also most importantly, your own personal encounters with the Living God that really cannot be understood by those who are not born of the spirit. And you will find, as you interact and search it out, that there are people encountering Jesus in real and tangible ways right across the globe. It would be unreasonable to deny this and/or reason it away as people with some psychological issues (as i have.heard many suggest who don't know God)

Our faith is a blind faith to those who cannot see, Brendan said that lol :)
 
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nativematt16

Guest
#3
I agree with Breno.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
7,417
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#4
Faith is trusting..
In particular Faith is trusting God..
God have given us strong evidence in the Message of the Bible..
Actually the evidence in that message overwhelming to those that are being saved..

Isaiah 1:KJV
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

The Holy Spirit is not some spiritual liquid that we measure by the liter or gallon. The Holy Spirit is a He.. The Holy Spirit is God dwelling within us. for we are His temple..

John 14: KJV
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even theSpirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.


How do we make sure we're filled with the holy Spirit, and not an evil lying demon pretending to be the Holy Spirit?

By reading the scriptures and being convicted in your heart that you are reading truth...


How do we separate the influence of the Holy Spirit from the cognitive falacy of confirmation bias?
By being humble and Trusting in God.. ((Faith in God)) Think for a moment.... If God is out to get you then you don't have a chance in hell.. So why not have Faith in God and make the genuine leap of Faith? What do you have to lose ??? Nothing..


If we can't answer those questions, then our faith could be influenced by an evil lying demon or by confirmation bias and we'd have no way to tell.
Yes we do.. We have the Word of God in the Bible to test the spirits with to see if they are from God or from the evil one..
 
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Simeon

Guest
#5
Faith is trusting..



Yes we do.. We have the Word of God in the Bible to test the spirits with to see if they are from God or from the evil one..
and how do we know the bible is the true word of God, if not through faith?

so you are telling me that to justify my faith in the bible I need to rely on my faith in the bible. isn't that circular? if i'm doubting that the bible is the true word of God and want to find a way to be sure, does reading the bible itself helps? of course not. i'm looking for answers here, not platitudes or logical falacies.

and and i'm not talking about faith as trust. i wouldn't have bothered with a defintion if i didn't want people to understand what i meant.
 
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Simeon

Guest
#6
An evil lying spirit cannot have a person display the fruit of the Holy Spirit. You will see a transformed life of a person under the influence of the Holy Spirit. A demon controls, Holy Spirit guides.
Reasoning? It really is unreasonable to consider our faith as Christians unreasonable when men who walked with, ate with and touched Jesus recorded their experiences and what they saw. And also most importantly, your own personal encounters with the Living God that really cannot be understood by those who are not born of the spirit. And you will find, as you interact and search it out, that there are people encountering Jesus in real and tangible ways right across the globe. It would be unreasonable to deny this and/or reason it away as people with some psychological issues (as i have.heard many suggest who don't know God)

Our faith is a blind faith to those who cannot see, Brendan said that lol :)
thanks for your response
i don't really see how it answers my questions though, because you just asserts things without telling me how you know, how you reached that conclusion, which is what i'm trying to understand.
A demon controls, Holy Spirit guides.
okay. how do we know that?

personal encounters with the Living God
okay but my question is about this especialy, how do we acertain that it is indeed God, and not a delusion? i mean that is a possibility right? we need to show it is not a delusion before we can affirm it is God, otherwise we're just blowing air.

as for the apostles who were witnesses of the resurected Jesus, I'm affraid you haven't heard, but they were not the ones who wrote the gospels. we have no direct testimony. that's what biblical scholars say.
 

graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
2,180
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#7
Simeon the historical accuracy of the New Testament in particular is not really in question among scholars.
The evidence that Jesus Christ lived is much better than the evidence for the existence of Julius Caesar.

It is true that authors of some of the Gospels has been questioned but that does not take anything away from what was recorded.
The author of the Gospel of Luke and the Acts of the Apostles was the same person, whoever he was, is regarded as one of the very best historians of ancient times.
In fact, he probably really was Luke, who was a companion of Paul on his missionary journey's.

The places you need to go to settle your qualms about the Bible are websites and books dealing with apologetics.
 
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Simeon

Guest
#8
Simeon the historical accuracy of the New Testament in particular is not really in question among scholars.
The evidence that Jesus Christ lived is much better than the evidence for the existence of Julius Caesar.

It is true that authors of some of the Gospels has been questioned but that does not take anything away from what was recorded.
The author of the Gospel of Luke and the Acts of the Apostles was the same person, whoever he was, is regarded as one of the very best historians of ancient times.
In fact, he probably really was Luke, who was a companion of Paul on his missionary journey's.

The places you need to go to settle your qualms about the Bible are websites and books dealing with apologetics.
well, we don't have to agree on this, the point of my OP was to investigate the justification of faith. I'd rather stick to that instead of getting into endless bible arguments.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#9
Being deluded by confirmation bias, on the face of it, is much more probable than being influenced by the Holy Spirit, because we know some people are deluded by confirmation bias all the time when they believe weird stuff, but the existence of the Holy Spirit is not exactly scientific fact, it doesn't manifest itself in any other way than through our faith. So we need an assurance that the Holy Spirit is really guiding us and that we are not deluded about it.

What assurance do we have beside our faith itself that the Holy Spirit is really guiding us ?

Please help me answer those questions, people.
It looks like you are seeking to confirm your bias. Your bias favors what you call scientific fact. The problem is that you accept on faith what you consider to be scientific facts. This is one of the most difficult facts for non-believers to face and admit.
 
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Simeon

Guest
#10
It looks like you are seeking to confirm your bias. Your bias favors what you call scientific fact. The problem is that you accept on faith what you consider to be scientific facts. This is one of the most difficult facts for non-believers to face and admit.
where did that come from? have you read the OP?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#11
where did that come from? have you read the OP?
Yes, I read the OP, and other posts of yours in another thread. Do you wish to deny that you have a preference for scientific fact? That would seem an odd thing for you to do after all you have said. You are confirming what I have said, but resist the knowledge of doing it even while you do it.
 
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Simeon

Guest
#12
Faith itself, being what it is, poses many problems.

First, do we know Jesus is God ? I conclude we don't because knowing is holding a justified true belief. Even if it is true, we cannot justify our belief in Jesus, that's why we use faith, therefore we don't know.

Aren't we then declaring that we « know » Jesus is God simply because we believe in it so strongly ? How does that make it true ? Since when is strong conviction a measure of truth ?


Second, a big problem of faith as defined is figuring where to apply it. Why is faith in Jesus more or less valid than faith in Allah or Zeus or Ganeesha or any other gods ?

If faith has nothing to do with evidence or reason, therefore it can be directed with equal force toward any god. If one can have faith in the existence of anything at all, then faith would seem to be of no value at all. How does one justify picking one god over another if faith works for the existence of any god ? Shouldn't any person who defends faith as a legitimate reason to conclude Jesus is real also respect faith when it comes to the existence of thousands of other gods? What's the difference ? The object of faith cannot be the justification of faith, that is circular and falacious. Any follower of another god can say the same thing with the same force for the object of his faith.

Most of us recognize how intelectually feeble faith is when we see it applied to anything other than Jesus. What really gets me is why do we think it is different when we apply it to Jesus ? I seems the same to me. It seems to me that relying on faith as a primary justification for belief in Jesus is just not that good enough. If the only way we can accept an assertion is by blind faith, then we are conceding that it can't be taken on its own merits. It is intelectual bankruptcy. With faith we don't have to do any work into proving our case, we can « just believe ». And what we believe in doesn't need to be true for us to believe in it.

Imagine somebody told you :

« Look, you must have faith that there is no God. If you believe in your heart that nothing transcend nature and that humanity is the highest judge of morality, then you will know that atheism is true. »

or

« Look, you must have faith in Zeus. If you believe in your heart that all the gods live on Mt Olympus and that their leader is Zeus, then you will know that the gods look after you. »

How would you respond to that ? Would you take him seriously ? I would not. Why is it different when we say :

« Look, you must have faith in Jesus. If you believe in your heart that there is only one true God and that His name is Jesus, then you will know that Jesus saves. »

If that works for Jesus, that works for Zeus, Allah, thousands of gods and yes, even atheism. Faith is an unreliable way to know anything.

I mean, we wouldn't want our hospital staff, police department, fire service and government representatives to make decisions based on faith, would we ? We would expect them to base their decisions on something more substantial, such as logic, data, facts, past experiences, and science, don't we ?

Why is it different when we talk about God and the nature of reality ? About salvation and the meaning of life ? About how we should behave and how we should not ? About what we should tell our children is true ?

Faith is unreliable and we know it.
Now what i'd like to find out is: how can an unreliable faith help us any?
 
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graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
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#13
well, we don't have to agree on this, the point of my OP was to investigate the justification of faith. I'd rather stick to that instead of getting into endless bible arguments.
Simeon, you have already noted that you don't trust the Bible (for reasons that you give).
However, you seem to want Biblical evidence for faith while claiming simultaneously that you don't trust the evidence.
You are caught in your own circle.
I have offered you a way out and you don't want to investigate that.

For me I will withdraw now from this thread.
I have seen too many threads start like this one and rapidly head south.

I wish you luck with your quest.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#14
You make faulty assumptions to declare that faith is without evidence or reason. If you have no reason to believe beyond the indoctrination you may have received then it is time for you to start truly seeking the Lord, for sure, and His Word promises that He will be found by those that seek diligently. It is a personal relationship He desires with you. Once you establish conscious contact and develop a relationship with the One Who has all power, you will not so easily dismiss such things as "faith" as being without reason, without evidence, or being illogical.
 
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Simeon

Guest
#15
Simeon, you have already noted that you don't trust the Bible (for reasons that you give).
However, you seem to want Biblical evidence for faith while claiming simultaneously that you don't trust the evidence.
You are caught in your own circle.
I have offered you a way out and you don't want to investigate that.

For me I will withdraw now from this thread.
I have seen too many threads start like this one and rapidly head south.

I wish you luck with your quest.
well thanks.

but you didn't get one point: i'm actually not in a circle because i do not look for biblical evidence for faith, i look for something independent to our whole faith structure that would justify our faith. and in a way you get the concept that if we use our own faith to justify our faith then we are stuck in a loop. i'm trying to break the loop by looking for something outside of it that would support it. hence my questions in the OP about the Holy Spirit.
 
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Simeon

Guest
#16
You make faulty assumptions to declare that faith is without evidence or reason. If you have no reason to believe beyond the indoctrination you may have received then it is time for you to start truly seeking the Lord, for sure, and His Word promises that He will be found by those that seek diligently. It is a personal relationship He desires with you. Once you establish conscious contact and develop a relationship with the One Who has all power, you will not so easily dismiss such things as "faith" as being without reason, without evidence, or being illogical.
okay, but then here you are not giving me reasons nor evidence nor logical thinking, you are giving me personal impressions, feelings, and subjective experience. what i am asking is how do we ascertain that this personal experience is legit. if we just accept it is without justifying it, we could be wrong. there is no denying that.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#17
Since non-believers do not believe, asking them to seek that which they do not believe in does seem to be a bit contradictory, like asking the impossible of them. However, Jesus is the Truth. If you are sincerely seeking truth, He is what you are looking for. You have a lot of worldly ideas to work through before you can get to the ground of your being.
 
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Simeon

Guest
#18
magenta, you seem confused about what evidence and reason means. how would you define it?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#19
okay, but then here you are not giving me reasons nor evidence nor logical thinking, you are giving me personal impressions, feelings, and subjective experience. what i am asking is how do we ascertain that this personal experience is legit. if we just accept it is without justifying it, we could be wrong. there is no denying that.
It is logical beyond what you are giving me! You give the impression of wanting to deny that you favor scientific fact. Why? What sense did that make after everything you have said and still say? And this is the problem: you reject faith while at the same time placing your faith and your very life in the hands of people you call scientists. Again, why? They claim this or that and you gobble it up and call it all true when you have not ascertained for your very own self the veracity of what they are saying. You accept it all on faith due to your very own confirmation bias while decrying confirmation biases.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#20
If you are going to distrust your own experiences you have a problem.