Does God kill christians in judgement?

[PeterJens]

The texts for this subject are

So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment. Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be finally condemned with the world.
1 Cor 11:28-32

"Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land?" ...... "When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died."
Sapphira lied - "At that moment she fell down at his feet and died."
Acts 5:3-10

Here is a statement by a believer who thinks this
"I don't believe in this age of grace in the New Covenant that God kills anyone or we would all be gone for something we have done wrong in our past."

Now after the cross, in front of Peter two die, in judgement for lying to the Lord.
Paul talks of God judging christians, not loosing their salvation, but being taken
for not honouring the Lord in a worthy manner.

Now if you are a hyper-legalist, you believe christians do this all the time, and
are in continual sin, so it seems wrong to judge out of context.

It suggests to me exactly the opposite. It suggests we walk in righteousness
and purity, but dishonouring Christ and the cross is cutting at the heart of our
relationship with Christ, and lying about something openly before God, is worthy
of extreme reaction to offence. This is testing the very authority of God and
His holiness, and treating it with disregard.

Personally I do not see how the scriptures can be contradicted and conclude
the hyper-legalists are wrong.

It is another example where talking about a Holy God being totally friendly while
believing people are sent to hell to be tortured for all eternity is ludicrous and self
deceiving. More so if these very believers do not change their lives at all other
than becoming believers in their sin being atoned for.

 

[3putter]

Are you saying you do not believe in hell?

 

[Grace777x70]

No where in 1 Corinthians 11 does it say that God puts sicknesses on His beloved children to "judge" them. That's just religious nonsense and complete ignorance of the New Covenant.

The Greek word "judged" means "to decide between" and the Lord chastens/disciplines us as children. The Greek word for "chastens/discipline" means to "child-train".

People died because of what they were doing and NOT doing by not rightly dividing the purpose of communion - not that God puts a disease on them.

Would we as parents put a sickness on our own children to teach them something? Of course not. Then why do we have so much more "goodness" and "rightness" then God does for His children as the religious belief says that God puts sicknesses on His children to teach them things?

Are we so much better then our loving Father in heaven? Where do we get this sense of "rightness" from? - The life of the Lord in us obviously.

The real Jesus is the One that was displaying the will of the Father while He was on this earth and healing "all" that came to Him. The real Jesus is the One who is the express representation of the nature of the Father . Heb. 1:3

Nowhere do we see where Jesus put a sickness on people in fact we see the complete opposite. Jesus went about "doing good" and healing all that oppressed of the devil. Acts 10:38

Then some Christians wonder why people in the world reject what we say about God. We tell them that He will put sicknesses on you if you don't measure up. That is such religious nonsense.

The people of the world are not rejecting Christ - they are rejecting our religious portrayals of our Father and Lord. - and I don't blame them either as that is NOT the nature of our Lord and Father.

Religion is just so opposite of the Lord in this New Covenant of grace. Look at James and John that wanted to call down fire on the Samaritans in the exact place that Elijah did in the Old Covenant. Jesus said "You do not know what manner of spirit you are of - The Son of Man is not come to destroy men's lives but to save them." Luke 9:54-56.

( and yet our religious traditions say the complete opposite of what the Lord Jesus says )

Religion today says the same thing about God - that He will put sicknesses on you if you don't measure up - religion doesn't know the heart and nature of the Father and our Lord yet.

 

[Grace777x70]

Absolutely nowhere in scripture does it say that Ananias and Sapphira were struck dead by the Lord. That is just what is religiously taught.

If we would be struck dead for lying to a fellow believer or church family - we all most likely would be gone from this earth.


Here is link about looks at this situation through the grace of Christ in the New Covenant.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/140632-healing-what-actually-5.html#post2759374

Here is another.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/140632-healing-what-actually-6.html#post2759522

Everyone is free to believe whatever they want too...

 

[Adstar]

It is another example where talking about a Holy God being totally friendly while
believing people are sent to hell to be tortured for all eternity is ludicrous and self
deceiving.

People denying the eternal nature of the Lake of fire and denying that people will be cast into the Lake of fire and will be in torment for ever and ever.. Are just denying clear scripture.. it is ludicrous to deny what the scripture clearly reveals..

 

[LaurenTM]

So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment. Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be finally condemned with the world.
1 Cor 11:28-32

there was a thread on this a few weeks back

a very different supposition to the one it seems is being presented here

Now after the cross, in front of Peter two die, in judgement for lying to the Lord.
Paul talks of God judging christians, not loosing their salvation, but being taken
for not honouring the Lord in a worthy manner.

since only Christ can make any one of us 'WORTHY' at 'ANY' time, that is a massive contradiction

better to just not even 'remember' Jesus at all then would be my conclusion

but I guess that would result in my being killed off by God as well if I follow this convoluted quasi-religious reasoning


this is why few people should present themselves as a teacher....

 

[LaurenTM]

found it

HERE WE GO

I'm sure Willie-T won't mind

thought provoking...read it...a little long for some, but seeing God as someone who desires to whack us over the head all the time and even possibly kill us...makes God a liar

 

[PeterJens]

There are some interesting theological connections in schools of thought.

It appears all commenting other than me fall into one school of thought.

Now because Willie puts the opposite position does not make it right.
The focus here is what scripture says.

I am sure you can make up your own points of view and try and justify this
throught scripture. Unfortunately when scripture contradicts this, it is ones
thinking that has to change.

The two obvious points are Ananias and Sapphira, and Paul addressing taking
the breaking of bread in an worthy manner.

Now you guys feel this is so important an issue you jump in here and declare something
that is not taught in scripture. It reminds me of brainwashed cults, where if you show
what the text says, if it contradicts the core position of their faith it is just ignored, in
the belief there is a better explanation but it has not been discovered.

 

[PeterJens]

Are you saying you do not believe in hell?

I believe in the lake of fire, and those not found in the book of the lamb will be thrown into it.

The point I am making is simple. Some hold God does not discipline His people, at all. It is all
kid gloves, yet those found outside the cover of the lamb are given the worst punishment possible.

Let take a simple example, Moses. He did not honour the Lord in front of Israel so was not allowed
to enter the promised land.

Now this discipline is not loosing salvation, but it is very real, and relating to illness and death.
But this tastes so bad in the grace camp, they want to spit it out. But what is their justification
other than their heretical extreme view of grace and salvation? Nothing.

 

[PeterJens]

Absolutely nowhere in scripture does it say that Ananias and Sapphira were struck dead by the Lord. That is just what is religiously taught.

This is simply a lie. Peter says :-
"You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”
When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died.

Peter said to her, “How could you conspire to test the Spirit of the Lord? Listen! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also.”
Acts 5:9

Now Sapphira dies. So two healthy, alive people drop dead when confronted.
There are 3 possibilities.
1. Satan killed them
2. God killed them
3. The died from shock

The most obvious conclusion is God killed them, in judgement.
Look at Korahs rebellion. The ground opened up and swallowed them.

But this obvious scripture that ties with Paul and communion, is so concrete
you would rather lie about this than face the truth, because it unravels too
much of what you hold dear.

Words like obscure are used or minor issues, as if a complete contradiction
is not 100% important.

It is like talking about healing justified by believe what you pray for while ignoring
forgiving people is conditional on God forgiving you.

I know you do not care about these issue, because honesty and truth have left
you, but you cannot be clearer than this to show you have fallen into heresy.

But you are too lost to ever come back, which for 9 months has become clearer,
as we work through the issues one by one.

 

[LaurenTM]

There are some interesting theological connections in schools of thought.

It appears all commenting other than me fall into one school of thought.

Now because Willie puts the opposite position does not make it right.
The focus here is what scripture says.

I am sure you can make up your own points of view and try and justify this
throught scripture. Unfortunately when scripture contradicts this, it is ones
thinking that has to change.

The two obvious points are Ananias and Sapphira, and Paul addressing taking
the breaking of bread in an worthy manner.

Now you guys feel this is so important an issue you jump in here and declare something
that is not taught in scripture. It reminds me of brainwashed cults, where if you show
what the text says, if it contradicts the core position of their faith it is just ignored, in
the belief there is a better explanation but it has not been discovered.

Ananias and Sapphira lied to the Holy Spirit as Peter states

how you make a connection to remembering Christ at His request is most likely beyond the scope of this site

as far as Willie's post goes, believe me, I did not create that link for your enlightenment...I created it for the sake of those who wish to read a thread with intelligent design

what is important, is that people realize the confusing and unbiblical posts you string together, apparently out of an attempt to create like minded folks...or even more hopeless, to see if anyone agrees with you

 

[PeterJens]

Communion

I am surprised at Willie's words regarding have to think about Jesus dying, as if this is wrong.
The reason why this upsets me, is if I died, and my family commerated my death at the hands
of my enemies, they understood the price I paid and suffering.

To show the blood shed for the forgiveness of our sins, the body broken and pieced for our
offence and debt, if this does not make you sad, and thankful, I doubt you know the Lord
at all.

Emotionally you guys are so far from the heart of God, is staggers me. In all of creation,
from the beginning of time to now, the greatest act is the King of Kings going to the cross,
suffering horrendous suffering and dying.

The Turin Shroud shows a man whose back was ripped to shreds, to a degree with loss of
blood they would not survive 6 hours on the cross.

Now I have much to say the RCC fails, but contemplation on the cross and sin is not one
of them.

 

[Ariel82]

found it

HERE WE GO

I'm sure Willie-T won't mind

thought provoking...read it...a little long for some, but seeing God as someone who desires to whack us over the head all the time and even possibly kill us...makes God a liar

Nice thread, thanks for the link.

Didn't see it in my drive by visits.

 

[Grace777x70]

Absolutely nowhere in scripture does it say that Ananias and Sapphira were struck dead by the Lord. That is just what is religiously taught.

What about Ananias and Sapphira?

Recently in Connecticut, a pastor stood in front of his church and confessed to the sin of adultery. Then the pastor fell down dead, right in front of everyone. This proves that God expects his people to live holy lives and if they don’t, he’ll kill them.

Of course, that’s complete nonsense. The story is true – a Connecticut pastor really did die – but the interpretation is all wrong. The fact is, God doesn’t treat us as our sins deserve. But what are we to make of Ananias and Sapphira who, like the poor pastor, dropped dead in a church (Acts 5:1-11)?

The bizarre deaths of Ananias and Sapphira have been debated for 2,000 years. Why did they die? Did God kill them? Why did God kill them? Why is this story in the Bible? Am I supposed to learn something from it? What? Will God kill me if I lie?

Questions like these have provided sermon material for countless fear-mongers. “God killed Ananias and Sapphira because they sinned and if you’re not careful he’ll kill you too! So fear God and behave yourself.” Has there ever been a more damnable lie inflicted on those whom God loves? (Actually, I can think of several worse lies.)

Unpunishable on account of Jesus

I could give you a hundred scriptures to show you that God did not kill Ananias and Sapphira for their sins and to assure you that he won’t kill you for yours, but three should suffice:

(God) doesn’t punish us as our sins deserve. (Psalm 103:10, CEV)

The punishment that brought us peace was on him… (Isa 53:5b)

God is not counting people’s sins against them. (2 Cor 5:19b)

The very good news of Jesus is that your sins and my sins and the sins of that Connecticut pastor and the sins of Ananias and Sapphira were condemned on the cross and there is nothing left to condemn! God was angry with your sins, which is why he poured out his wrath and dealt with them once and for all at Calvary (Rom 8:3).

Those who accuse God of killing sinners are confused about the cross. God doesn’t kill sinners, he saves sinners. God doesn’t hate sinners, he loves them!

But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. (Rom 5:8)

If God killed Ananias and Sapphira then the Bible is wrong and Jesus is not the Lamb of God who carried the sins of the world. (If you’re wondering about Herod, read this.)
There’s no shortage of sinners in this world. Why would God kill one couple and leave the rest alone?

I’ve heard it said that God killed Ananias and Sapphira to warn and purify the infant church. By making an example out of these hypocrites, the church would be filled with a holy fear and kept safe from liars and cheats. If so, then God failed spectacularly. Liars, cheats and hypocrites have always been with us, and there were plenty in the New Testament church.

I’ve also heard it said that God set up this killing to establish the authority of his apostles. Never mind that Peter had been commissioned by the Lord and filled with the Holy Spirit. Like a kid going through a gangster initiation he had to kill someone to establish his bona fides. How absurd! How utterly inconsistent with the message Peter had been commissioned to preach.

Meanwhile back in Connecticut

People sometimes ask me, “Did God kill Ananias and Sapphira?” When I reply in the negative I am invariably asked, “So who did?” as though there was some murder mystery to be solved. But the facts of their deaths may be more prosaic.

The pastor in Connecticut died from a sudden heart failure, which is very sad. Perhaps it was the stress of hiding a lie or losing his reputation that triggered the attack. At the time of his death there was speculation in the press that he didn’t plan to confess at all – the adultery was a long time ago – but he had been ambushed by church members who had heard about his affair. Emotions were running high. There was shouting. The man died.

Whatever happened, it’s a sad story. But I am struck by the similarities between the Connecticut story and the deaths of Ananias and Sapphira:

• By having a secret affair, you could argue that the pastor lied to his church and he lied to God, as did Ananias and Sapphira.
  
• The pastor was confronted by church members, as were Ananias and Sapphira.
  
• The pastor dropped down dead, just like Ananias and Sapphira.

As far as I know, no one is blaming God for the pastor’s death, so why would anyone blame him for the deaths of Ananias and Sapphira? If you must blame someone, blame sin. Sin kills people. Sin ruins marriages and destroys lives. Sin is bad.

And this is exactly why Jesus came – so that you might be free from the curse of sin and live. If there is any takeaway from the Ananias and Sapphira story, it’s that the wages of sin is death.

That’s the bad news. But the good news is that God is good, he doesn’t treat you as your sins deserve, and he freely gives life to sinners.

That’s the gospel of Jesus that we all need to hear!

https://escapetoreality.org/2015/04/...-and-sapphira/

I like to use this website as it tackles the obscure scriptures in a grace-based way which is the finished work of Christ. It also has at the bottom where you can ask questions. I often learn more reading those as well.

 

[PeterJens]

Ananias and Sapphira lied to the Holy Spirit as Peter states

how you make a connection to remembering Christ at His request is most likely beyond the scope of this site

as far as Willie's post goes, believe me, I did not create that link for your enlightenment...I created it for the sake of those who wish to read a thread with intelligent design

what is important, is that people realize the confusing and unbiblical posts you string together, apparently out of an attempt to create like minded folks...or even more hopeless, to see if anyone agrees with you

Thankyou Lauren. Your antipathy shows through very clearly.

I understand you think some principles that are clearly not scriptural, and any scriptures that
show this up must be wrong, is the definition of brain washing. If you want to show me why
I am wrong, then I am listening, but attacking me does not help this cause.

The church is mainly full of like minded people like me, and though some fall into the delusions
of the mystical which you hold to so dearly, life and spirituality soon break through.

One day you will learn about the discipline of the Lord, but then it will probably be too late.

The problem with theology and connections between ideas, you can imagine or absorb ones
from your own faith group, and simply only spot when someone holds a different set, but not
realise why.

Some of your past contributions have demonstrated how this is true for you.
God bless you, and I pray you will see truth through the words of Christ and His followers.
It is not complex but works with child like simplicity.

 

[Grace777x70]

What about Ananias and Sapphira lying to the Holy Spirit? Who were they? Scriptures do not even say that they were Christians but they were Jewish people taught in the Old Covenant and knowing about Korah and other stories - they had a terror of the Lord.

We live in the New Covenant now - to some people it's as if Jesus never even came and died for us when they mix the Old Covenant with the New Covenant.

I believe that Peter had a word of knowledge of what was going to happen to them when they were caught lying. They were good Jews that had known about the things of God - especially of being afraid of the terror of the Lord.

If God was going to kill people for lying to the Holy Spirit in a church setting - most of the church would be dead a long time ago. Every time we say something that isn't the truth to another Christian - it could be called "lying to the Holy Spirit" too.

I also don't believe that they were even believers.

No place does it say that they were believers other then wanting to join them and we have people for all kinds of reasons wanting to join churches today - and they are not all Christians.

How could satan fill their heart if they were believers in Christ? Christ lives in our heart now - did Christ get kicked out? That would mean that satan can come into the believers heart but we know that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit when we believe in Christ. Eph 1:13; Eph. 4:30 - This contradicts very clear scripture.

I think that this couple were wanting to join the Christians and get in on the things being shared by all the others and so they held back their money of the land they had sold. When the couple died Acts 5:11 says that great fear came over all who heard of these things that happened to the couple. Then in verse 13 the scripture says something very interesting.

Acts 5:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] But none of the rest dared to associate with them; however, the people held them in high esteem.

It appears that there were some people trying to associate with the apostles and Christians but after that - they didn't dare try to associate with them.

Just my 2 cents worth too as I don't believe in this age of grace in the New Covenant that God kills anyone or we would all be gone for something we have done wrong in our past.

I think this is one of those obscure scriptures that need to be looked at carefully in light of the finished work of Christ.

 

[Grace777x70]

LaurenTM - ignore this man's insults against you. We are well-versed in how his mind works and how his behavior towards others has been well-documented. He is just trying to "bait" you with his remarks. Remember Rom. 16:17...

We are to just state our beliefs with scriptures and ignore the insults and bad behavior. All is well. The Lord will be faithful to all of us!

 

[PeterJens]

Absolutely nowhere in scripture does it say that Ananias and Sapphira were struck dead by the Lord. That is just what is religiously taught.

Repeating your position does not make it true.

It is always possible to hold two contradictatory points, like you accept the authority
of scripture while constructing your own version of God.

In Gods Kingdom, judgement falls. Churches rise up and then disappear.
People claim the largest things and then fail.

Latter rain, command theology, healing for all believers, wealth for all believers,
no condemnation, no guilt, only positive affirmation.

To me this is all exaguration.
What matters is the core of love in the heart.
Now if love can come the rein in your heart, then all the other issues will fade
away. Walking in righteousness and purity come from the heart.

If anything these types of arguments lead me to doubt the Lord really moves,
and what is the point. The most enthusiastic and loud shouters are happy to lie
and cheat, to put the emphasis in all the wrong places, and yet claim they know
Jesus really, yet deny all His major messages.

I am not surprised Jesus had to spend a lot of time praying and communing with
God, this level of antagonism is enough to make you think love does not matter at
all. But the cross is all about love conquers all, even the nutcase cultists.

 

[Grace777x70]

Here is a great post from JGIG about the discipline of the Lord and I think it applies here.

Quote:


God does not beat his children.

Godly discipline is training for the future, not punishment for our past.

An excellent teaching regarding this issue can be heard here (it addresses the Hebrews 12 'scourging' language):

Church Without Religion | By His Stripes Or Ours​

Please, please, please listen to it!

-JGIG

Unquote:

Here is the link for this post:

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...e-deeper-look-hyper-stuff-31.html#post2729050

 

[PeterJens]

What about Ananias and Sapphira lying to the Holy Spirit? Who were they? Scriptures do not even say that they were Christians but they were Jewish people taught in the Old Covenant and knowing about Korah and other stories - they had a terror of the Lord.

We live in the New Covenant now - to some people it's as if Jesus never even came and died for us when they mix the Old Covenant with the New Covenant.

I believe that Peter had a word of knowledge of what was going to happen to them when they were caught lying. They were good Jews that had known about the things of God - especially of being afraid of the terror of the Lord.

If God was going to kill people for lying to the Holy Spirit in a church setting - most of the church would be dead a long time ago. Every time we say something that isn't the truth to another Christian - it could be called "lying to the Holy Spirit" too.

I also don't believe that they were even believers.

No place does it say that they were believers other then wanting to join them and we have people for all kinds of reasons wanting to join churches today - and they are not all Christians.

How could satan fill their heart if they were believers in Christ? Christ lives in our heart now - did Christ get kicked out? That would mean that satan can come into the believers heart but we know that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit when we believe in Christ. Eph 1:13; Eph. 4:30 - This contradicts very clear scripture.

I think that this couple were wanting to join the Christians and get in on the things being shared by all the others and so they held back their money of the land they had sold. When the couple died Acts 5:11 says that great fear came over all who heard of these things that happened to the couple. Then in verse 13 the scripture says something very interesting.

Acts 5:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] But none of the rest dared to associate with them; however, the people held them in high esteem.

It appears that there were some people trying to associate with the apostles and Christians but after that - they didn't dare try to associate with them.

Just my 2 cents worth too as I don't believe in this age of grace in the New Covenant that God kills anyone or we would all be gone for something we have done wrong in our past.

I think this is one of those obscure scriptures that need to be looked at carefully in light of the finished work of Christ.

How do you spot failure?
When the explanation of the obvious meaning has to be read in differently.

Take the use of the word "perfect" by matthew.
Perfect - be perfect like the Father ( in terms of loving your enemy)
Perfect - If you follow Jesus you will be perfect.

Now hyper-legalists take perfect like the Father to mean it is just to
create a feeling of being an unworthy sinner.
But following Jesus is being perfect, is just ignored because it does not
fit the theology.

Ananias and Sapphira were part of the christian community, which is why they
gave the proceeds from the land to Peter. No one knew their theology or depth
of faith, because that was not how the community ran. It had just started under
the leadership of the apostles. But they lied to God and where judged.

Now in the world of absolute interpretations where there is only one correct
understanding, I have to be wrong to believe they were christians and God judged
them, because that means the hyper-grace gospel is not complete.

If one cannot be honest about this dilemma then there is no attempt at being
truthful.