Can we just focus on one point?

[Yet]

I'm constantly told i misrepresent God and His word. But no one is specific.

So lets try something simple. I contend that the one exalted, titled, salaried pastor is not biblical.

• Here's everbody's chance to prove me wrong.
• Read the chapters in 1Cor.12, Romans 12, and Ephesians 4 and point out the sermonizing single top pastor.
• and that with the congregation quiet and listening.

 

[Willie-T]

I'm constantly told i misrepresent God and His word. But no one is specific.

So lets try something simple. I contend that the one exalted, titled, salaried pastor is not biblical.

• Here's everbody's chance to prove me wrong.
• Read the chapters in 1Cor.12, Romans 12, and Ephesians 4 and point out the sermonizing single top pastor.
• and that with the congregation quiet and listening.

Each of those is a letter written by a man people helped in many ways.... a letter is one man speaking who cannot be asked to stop, nor to listen to another point of view, nor to share the moment with. A letter is something you shut up and listen to all the way through.... in these cases, because the man writing them was honored, esteemed, and accepted as authority.

 

[hornetguy]

There are many instances in the Word that indicate different churches had a person that was sort of the "lead" teacher... what we would call a "preacher" today. Whether they received any pay for it, or not? We don't know.

We know that Paul sent individuals to different cities to "minister" to the churches there... it appears they were to be the "preacher" to those believers.

I still see no scripture that forbids paying a minister to be a full-time preacher for a congregation.

I do agree with you, as we have discussed several times in the past, that having a preacher "start" a church, and be the "head" over the church, controlling all the collection monies, and using those monies as HE decides, is definitely NOT a good way to do things, and does not follow any scriptural model.

Even though some preachers like that might be good stewards, the temptation to "use" the funds incorrectly is too strong for many people. The money collected should be used as the assembly sees fit... NOT how the preacher ("pastor") does. He should have NO control over how the collection is used.

 

[Yet]

There are many instances in the Word that indicate different churches had a person that was sort of the "lead" teacher... what we would call a "preacher" today. Whether they received any pay for it, or not? We don't know.

We know that Paul sent individuals to different cities to "minister" to the churches there... it appears they were to be the "preacher" to those believers.

I still see no scripture that forbids paying a minister to be a full-time preacher for a congregation.

I do agree with you, as we have discussed several times in the past, that having a preacher "start" a church, and be the "head" over the church, controlling all the collection monies, and using those monies as HE decides, is definitely NOT a good way to do things, and does not follow any scriptural model.

Even though some preachers like that might be good stewards, the temptation to "use" the funds incorrectly is too strong for many people. The money collected should be used as the assembly sees fit... NOT how the preacher ("pastor") does. He should have NO control over how the collection is used.

Can you give us scripture supporting the modern pastor. You did refer to the itenerent preachers but thats apples and oranges.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Romans 12:

6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;

8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.

10 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;

Every member of the body of Christ has been gifted according to grace. What we see in Rom 12 is not an exhaustive list and each person is to do whatever it is that he/she does in love and without dissimulation (hypocrisy).

In vs 7, the teacher is to teach. As the teacher is teaching, what are those who are listening to do?
(Hint: listen).

 

[hornetguy]

I would have to research the actual scriptures, but it appears that Timothy was a pretty long-term preacher at Ephesus, and like I mentioned, all the other people that were sent by Paul to various cities... I'm not sure they were itinerant... there was no mention of how long they were to work in those cities.

The scriptures you show seem to pertain only to itinerant preachers, as well... or traveling "evangelists"

Either way, I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill, to suggest that a church cannot choose to pay a minister whatever THEY deem proper, to be a full time preacher.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

While you limit the instruction in 1 Corinthians to chapter 12, please look at chapter 14 ---

1 Corinthians 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

We all cannot speak at once. There is to be order when we come together in fellowship.

And Paul goes on in vss 27-39 with instruction as to the orderliness of the church service and concludes in vs 40 with Let all things be done decently and in order.


1 Corinthians 12:

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

In vs 28, we are shown that it is God Who has set these varying functions within the church. These are not numbered in order of priority as if an apostle is "better" than a teacher. And, as with Romans 12, this is not an exhaustive list.

In vss 29-30, the question is asked is every member an apostle? or a teacher? or a worker of miracles? And, of course, the answer is "no".

In vs 31, we are again directed toward the excellent way in which we are to function within the body of Christ with whatever grace with which we have been gifted. And that is in love.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

In Ephesians 4, we are again directed to this truth of doing all things in love:

Ephesians 4:15-16 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Every joint supplying according to the effectual working in the measure of every part and resulting in the increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love is the same truth found in Rom 12 and 1 Cor 12.

So you, Yet, as a member of a congregation, are to participate within the congregation as God has gifted you and you are to do so in love.

Is it loving for you to go into your congregation and tell the teacher he is an "exalted, titled, salaried pastor" who is acting in a capacity which is "not biblical"?

Or is it loving for you to go into your congregation, listen to the message, allow God to work in your heart to bring forth increase to the truth you hear, and then fellowship with the believers afterward?

And then, when you leave to enter the mission field, share what God is working in your heart with all you come into contact.

 

[Grace777x70]

Here is a scripture that shows that Paul and Silas could have got support from the people but Paul chose the opposite to bring an example of not being a burden to others.

It seems there were a bunch of people in Thessalonica that didn't want to work, so Paul showed them the difference by working himself.

Notice Paul said - "Not that we didn't have the right.." This shows that there are times for supporting the leaders in the church that serve the gospel.

2 Thessalonians 3:7-10 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example, because we did not act in an undisciplined manner among you,

[SUP]8 [/SUP] nor did we eat anyone's bread without paying for it, but with labor and hardship we kept working night and day so that we would not be a burden to any of you;

[SUP]9 [/SUP] not because we do not have the right to this, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you, so that you would follow our example.

[SUP]10 [/SUP] For even when we were with you, we used to give you this order: if anyone is not willing to work, then he is not to eat, either.

 

[Yet]

Each of those is a letter written by a man people helped in many ways.... a letter is one man speaking who cannot be asked to stop, nor to listen to another point of view, nor to share the moment with. A letter is something you shut up and listen to all the way through.... in these cases, because the man writing them was honored, esteemed, and accepted as authority.

Letters yes. But even Paul's teaching moments were dialogues, not monologues.

Acts 20:7. Paul preached unto them. Preached: dialegomai: to reason, discuss, discourse, to argue, to dispute. As in dia-logue, a back and forth discussion, not mono-logue, a one sided oratory.

But to equate 'letters' to the single, exalted, titled, monologue oratory orator,well i don't see the connection. Like in 'show me the money', 'show me the 'pastor''. Thats the trouble in to many cases. Show me the money and i'll show you the pastor. Or is it 'show me the pastor, and i'll show you the money.' A little humor, though tragic as it is.

So show me the sermonizing pastor in Pauls description.

 

[Utah]

Is it written in Scripture that shepherds should not receive monetary allowances?

 

[Grace777x70]

Letters yes. But even Paul's teaching moments were dialogues, not monologues.

Acts 20:7. Paul preached unto them. Preached: dialegomai: to reason, discuss, discourse, to argue, to dispute. As in dia-logue, a back and forth discussion, not mono-logue, a one sided oratory.

But to equate 'letters' to the single, exalted, titled, monologue oratory orator,well i don't see the connection. Like in 'show me the money', 'show me the 'pastor''. Thats the trouble in to many cases. Show me the money and i'll show you the pastor. Or is it 'show me the pastor, and i'll show you the money.' A little humor, though tragic as it is.

So show me the sermonizing pastor in Pauls description.

What about the time Paul talked into late in the night - and the kid dropped off the stairs and Paul raised him from the dead?

Paul was doing a lot of speaking then. There is a time for the teachers to teach and in fact all 5-fold ministries to do what they are called to do - which is build up the body of Christ. To say that every time every one is supposed to speak too instead of the leaders in every meeting is just deception....IMO

 

[Magenta]

Moreover, as you Philippians know, in the early days of your acquaintance with the gospel, when I set out from Macedonia, not one church shared with me in the matter of giving and receiving, except you only; for even when I was in Thessalonica, you sent me aid more than once when I was in need.
*I robbed other churches by accepting support from them in order to serve you. And when I was with you and was in need, I did not burden anyone, for the brothers who came from Macedonia supplied my need. So I refrained and will refrain from burdening you in any way.

 

[Magenta]

Paul believed in receiving compensation for his evangelical work.

“If we have sown spiritual things among you, is it
too much if we reap material things from you?” (1 Cor. 9:11, ESV)

“the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the
gospel should get their living by the gospel” (1 Cor. 9:14)

“One who is taught the word must share
all good things with the one who teaches” (Gal. 6:6)

 

[Blain]

I don't quite understand if you want us to provide scriptures to support the role of a pastor being biblical or to support a paid one though I am leaning toward the latter one in which case there is little to no scripture to prove the role of a paid pastor or preacher but even so does a pastor who likely has family to take care of bills to pay organizations that he the supports financially or even medicine that needs to be paid for become unqualified to preach and to teach?

as for if you mean the role of a pastor preacher or minister many have already provided more than enough scripture evidence for that one

 

[Magenta]

there is little to no scripture to prove the role of a paid pastor or preacher

I just gave some.

I'm constantly told i misrepresent God and His word. But no one is specific.

I have seen people being specific. Certainly I just was. I hope you never say that again!

 

[Miri]

Yet I think you are missing one important point.

The NT focuses on the work of Jesus and the early church, whose mission was to
spread the gospel to the uttermost parts of the earth.

This was a new venture, a new belief system (actually it was an old belief system turned
the right way around but people didn't understand that).

The early church had a humongous task of teaching people what the OT was really about and
how Jesus fulfilled it. God chose specific people to conduct this task, to spread this new
belief system. Those people by default could not stay in one place they were tasked with
the spreading of the gospel.

The NT early churches represent a model, a programme if you like for establishing Christianity.
We would call it church planting. But each church does need leadership.

I agree that for one person to have ultimate control, is probably not a good idea, that's where
cults spring from. But ive never been to a church where this was the set up in the UK.


Maybe you just need to put the bad experiences behind you, find a church you are
comfortable with, get on with your life and let the matter drop.

It seems to have become a bit of an obsession. Who knows maybe God wants you to be
an intinerant preacher, but one with a single message of "down with all other preachers" isn't
going to do a good job of spreading the gospel. Just saying.

ps maybe if you ever feel the need to actually spread the gospel, you could play on the
fact that you look like Captain Pickard from Star Trek. Shave the beard, get a red jumper
and it would go down a storm

 

[hornetguy]

make it so, Number One...

 

[MikeHenderson]

Did you while working for a company insist you had to be paid for your works? Or did you work your whole live for companies without being paid?

Is it fair to insist Pastors work for free just because you want it that way? Where is you Love for God? Where is your Love for others?

It sounds like everything revolves around you.

 

[Magenta]

Jesus sent them out with no purse. Hey, they were breatharians!

breath·ar·i·an
ˌbreTHˈerēən/
noun

a person who believes that it is possible, through meditation, to reach a level
of consciousness where one can obtain all sustenance from the air or sunlight.