"Whatever you bind on Earth will be bound in Heaven".

Marcelo · Aug 27, 2016

Ok, I'll give you another example:

One church forbids (binds) women to attend services without a veil;
Another church permits (looses) women to attend services without a veil.

What I mean by the word "teachings" is the act of forbiding (binding) or allowing (loosing) certain practices; in this case, one church teaches that women must wear a veil, while another teaches that the veil is not necessary.

Again, my question is: Will God accept women both with and without veil?

I must point out that the Bible (Paul) says that women must wear a veil when they pray or profecy, but most modern day church leaders permit (loose) women to attend services without a veil. Does God accept this new teaching?

P.S.: We must make sure that everyone in here agrees that to bind means to forbid, and that to loose means to permit. Some people think that to bind means to connect and to loose means to disconnect (excommunicate). This second interpretation is rejected by most scholars.

RBA238 · Aug 27, 2016

Marcelo said:

The Pastor can and will chastise those not "Lining Up" according to The Sound Doctrines in The Bible and Teachings...If would be better for a person just to convert and not argue etc, then be saved. God can put whoever he wants in a position or place he can by using a bad attitude, or being negative to the Shepherd of God's flock.

posthuman · Aug 27, 2016

some translations read:

"whatever you bind on earth will have already been bound in heaven"

likewise whatever is loosed on earth, will have been loosed in heaven.
i.e. -- the 'whatever you bind' is future tense, present action taking place on earth, but the binding in heaven is past tense, already fulfilled thing.

So. What does this mean, does that change the meaning, and which is correct?
((don't tell me, whatever KJV says is right, because, KJV. please.))

Also -- does the Lord give such authority to all of us, or is this specifically & only for those disciples He sent out saying this, as a sign to the unbelieving Jews?
Because i've heard that it seems some people make it a habit to appropriate to themselves things that were never promised to them, and i believe that is probably a valid criticism.

FreeNChrist · Aug 27, 2016

resurrection33 said:

That would be "karma", and make Jesus either a Hindu or a Buddhist. I don't think so.......

KenAllan · Aug 27, 2016

You are wrong Marcelo. The binding and loosing is the binding or the loosing of the Scriptures.

Its NOT about forbidding or allowing things in the Church.. Its about bringing the Word of God, the Scriptures, to the World.

Your opinion of binding and loosing sound a lot like what the false Catholic Church teaches.

Marcelo · Aug 27, 2016

posthuman said:

The answer is found in Binding and Loosing | Truth Or Tradition?

From the many examples of “bind” and “loose” in the Jewish writings, we can see that they referred to “forbidding” or “permitting” something, and they were used of things, such as rules and regulations, not of people. The rabbis did not bind or loose people. “Binding” (forbidding) and “loosing” (permitting) were necessary because the Law of Moses could not contain all the regulations necessary to govern a congregation and society. Therefore, the religious leaders were required to “bind” and “loose” activities in the congregation that were not specifically included in the Law of Moses. This was true in Jesus’ day, and is still true today.
Every church today has rules and regulations, things forbidden and things allowed, that are not specifically written in the Bible, but are extrapolated from it. Thus leaders in a church today might “bind,” forbid, specific immodest clothing in the worship service based on the general tenet of Scripture that people dress modestly. Or, specific foul language might be “bound,” forbidden, on church property based on the general biblical rule about not using obscenity. The Jewish faith in Jesus’ time was no different than our modern churches, and the leaders imposed many rules and regulations that were not specifically written in the “Law,” the “Torah,” which is the first five books of the Old Testament [Genesis through Deuteronomy].

Marcelo · Aug 27, 2016

KenAllan said:

It's not my opinion - it's the opinion of the site: Truth Or Tradition?

(truthortradition.com/articles/binding-and-loosing)

NotmebutHim · Aug 27, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

Hmmm I wonder if it is a matter of the original Greek being translated "will be" as opposed to "is".

In other words, I don't believe that we as humans have the power or authority to "change" what will take place in heaven, whether that involves binding or loosing things. Rather, I believe Jesus was saying, as you mentioned, that what has been been bound or loosed in heaven is a done deal. And that whatever happens here on Earth is a mere reflection of that.

We cannot force God's hand, so to speak. Whatever He has decreed to do, will be done. Remember also what Christ said in the Lord's prayer "Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven". He did not say "in heaven, as it is on earth".

The Scripture also says, in the book of Joshua, that the day the sun stood still was the only time "that the Lord heeded the voice of a man, for the Lord fought for Israel".

I'm not disagreeing with you; just adding my own thoughts to what you posted.

bikerchaz · Aug 27, 2016

Marcelo said:

So far every one on here has said truth. You do seem to be hung up on 'denomination' a bit and what is or is no allowed by 'them' in relation to who will be accepted in the Kingdom.

Firstly Do you have a relationship with Jesus? I do not mean 'have you been to church a lot or been christened or been accepted as a member of a certain church'?

As a true believer we have to have a relationship with Jesus. Not a knowing 'of' Him, but a knowing Him. a relationship is speaking to and being spoken to. The Holy Spirit is a tangible part of the God head and He will make His home within you and then the relationship starts.

He will make known to you everything you need for living a Jesus centred life. This comes through reading your bible prayerfully and carefully daily, or as often as you can. This is very important, by it we will have our minds renewed and we feed the relationship with the Spirit inside us.

Jesus said, "Seek you first the kingdom of God . ." This is the first thing we do. I can not do it for you and you can not do it for anyone else, You seek for you. Afterwards and as a process of this seeking, you will learn everything you need to know. Through this relationship with Jesus you will enrich, through the Holy Spirit, your understanding of what is and what is not acceptable to God as a life of praise.

I am saddened by what you have written, as children of God and as His bride we should all be on a path to maturity in Jesus so we all can go out and preach the word. Either by action or word or example depending on the Gifts we receive through the Holy Spirit. No one should be able to say don't do this or do that to be saved, there are no actions any of us can "do" to inherit eternal life except for accepting Jesus sacrifice on the cross as a covering for our sin.

As for once a year being allowed to commit adultery, or worse! The written word of God only takes a year to read and digest, all the information you will ever need is there for you to see and understand. Being allowed to wear anything or not is tantamount to legalism and sexist, Paul wrote ;
Galatians 3
[SUP]26 [/SUP]So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, [SUP]27 [/SUP]for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. [SUP]28 [/SUP]There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. [SUP]29 [/SUP]If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

When Jesus comes back and we are gathered to receive or give account, as we bend the knee before Him He will not ask us "Which denomination do you belong to?" or "How many hoops did you jump through?", if he asks anything it will be "Did you hear me and did you do what I asked you to do?". Saying that the pastor or vicar or elder or any one else told me such and such is no excuse. You have to know what Jesus says for your self. You will not get into the Kingdom of God through anyone else's anything and jumping through hoops by wearing or not wearing this or that is of no consequence and only serves to take our minds from Jesus.

Jesus is the focus, Jesus is the beginning of everything, Jesus is also the end of everything, nothing matters except Jesus. Being in this position brings the relationship with Him into focus and there we stay. So no matter what anyone says, even me, Go to Jesus, He will make Himself known to you, He will teach you all you need to know and more besides.

God bless.

Marcelo · Aug 27, 2016

Bikerchaz, do you agree with what is written below?

From the many examples of “bind” and “loose” in the Jewish writings, we can see that they referred to “forbidding” or “permitting” something, and they were used of things, such as rules and regulations, not of people. The rabbis did not bind or loose people. “Binding” (forbidding) and “loosing” (permitting) were necessary because the Law of Moses could not contain all the regulations necessary to govern a congregation and society. Therefore, the religious leaders were required to “bind” and “loose” activities in the congregation that were not specifically included in the Law of Moses. This was true in Jesus’ day, and is still true today.
Every church today has rules and regulations, things forbidden and things allowed, that are not specifically written in the Bible, but are extrapolated from it. Thus leaders in a church today might “bind,” forbid, specific immodest clothing in the worship service based on the general tenet of Scripture that people dress modestly. Or, specific foul language might be “bound,” forbidden, on church property based on the general biblical rule about not using obscenity. The Jewish faith in Jesus’ time was no different than our modern churches, and the leaders imposed many rules and regulations that were not specifically written in the “Law,” the “Torah,” which is the first five books of the Old Testament [Genesis through Deuteronomy].

From: truthortradition.com/articles/binding-and-loosing

Endnotes
[1] A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, MI, 1930), p. 134; comment on Matthew 16:19.
[2] Adam Clarke, Clarke’s Commentary (Abingdon-Cokesbury Press, New York), Vol. 5, p. 184, note on Matthew 18:18.
[3] Horst Balz and Gerhard Schneider, The Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament (William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, MI, 1990), p. 293.
[4] John Lightfoot, A Commentary on the New Testament from the Talmud and Hebraica: Vol. 2, Matthew -1 Corinthians (Hendrickson Publishers, Peabody, MA, originally 1859, reprinted 1979), pp. 236-241; notes on Matthew 16:19.
[5] Brown, Francis, with the cooperation of S. R. Driver, and Charles A. Briggs. The Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon(Hendrickson Publishers, Peabody, MA, Sixth Reprinting 2001).
[6] Albert Barnes, Barnes’ Notes (Baker Books, Grand Rapids, MI, 1847, reprinted 2005), p. 188, note on Matthew 18:18.
[7] Scripture quotations marked (NASB) are taken from the New American Standard Bible®, © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation. Used by permission.
[8] The “to be” verb in Matthew 18:18 is a future passive periphrastic perfect indicative. A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, MI, 1930), p. 149.
[9] The New Testament: A Private Translation in the Language of the People, Charles B. Williams (Moody Press, Chicago, 1960).
[10] Mantey’s quotation is on the flyleaf to The New Testament by Charles B. Williams.
[11] A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, MI, 1930), p. 134; comment on Matthew 16:19.

Marcelo · Aug 27, 2016

Bikerchaz, you really hurt me, but I hope God will help me get over it!

I am not at all hung up on any denomination - on the contrary, I am concerned about following Jesus only!

Why do you ask me if I have a relationship with Jesus? Have I ever behaved badly in this community? Have I ever hurt anyone?

You say you're saddened by what I've written. What was that specifically? Most of my posts, in this thread, were made up of questions and opinions of scholars.

Why do you think I am an immature Christian?

I know Jesus is the focus.

I know that nothing matters except Jesus, and I am just asking questions about His words (bind/loose).

According to the opinion of many scholars TO BIND means TO FORBID, and TO LOOSE means TO PERMIT. Jesus gave authority to church leaders to resolve certain issues like: Should women wear a veil? Should men wear coat and tie? Is is OK to use contraceptives? Is masturbation a sin? Should women have long hair? If a member commits adultery two or three times during his lifetime will this keep him from being saved?

In your church most probably women don't wear a veil; many of them have short hair; the members don't greet one another with a holy kiss; etc. They are not following the Bible - they are following the church leaders. Why? Because Jesus gave authority to them to resolve such issues.

Many Christians do not know what the words BIND and LOOSE mean. If we don't know exactly what these words mean we are giving room to speculation. For example, some Catholics (not all) think that TO BIND means TO CONNECT and TO LOOSE means TO DISCONNECT. So, if you're a Catholic you're connected with God, and if you're not a Catholic you're disconnected.

Do you still think I am an immature Christian just because I am trying to exchange opinions about this subject with other CC members? I've seen several Christian families in disarray because the church leaders did not do a good job resolving the above mentioned issues. Once I heard of a father who slapped her daughter on the face just because she trimmed her hair a few centimeters. That was the result of a poor job interpreting Paul's words.

There many more issues that must be resolved by church leaders, like the correct interpretation of many Bible verses. Did Jesus give authority to church leaders to do that or not?

Even though I am still hurt, I still can say "God bless" to you. I want God to bless you, ... I really mean it.

resurrection33 · Aug 27, 2016

FreeNChrist said:

It's just an expression. Jesus is telling us that he will let us taste a bit of our own medicine, for our own edification.

Adstar · Aug 27, 2016

No Paul does not say that woman must wear a veil when they pray.. He said that God has given woman long hair as a covering and it is good for a woman to have long hair He also said it was good for a man to have short hair..

1 Corinthians 11 : KJV

13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?
14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.
16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

RobbyEarl · Aug 28, 2016

Jesus had long hair an a beard, they snatched out His beard before the Cross. Can you imagine having the hairs of your beard snatched out. Praise to His name forever and ever.

bikerchaz · Aug 28, 2016

Marcelo said:

I agree that this goes on all the time within churches. My authority, if I have any only comes from Jesus. I do not care about what others think, just Jesus. This binding and loosing has wonderful connotations and has been used by the 'church' as a weapon for centuries, to and at the cost of the salvation of some.

I have a take on this because of where I live and my love of history. The church in England through the bishop of Glasgow pronounced a curse, a binding, of the reivers of the Scottish borders in 1525, the Archbishop of Glasgow, Gavin Dunbar wrought a whopping 1,069-word curse on the Reiver people, who were pillaging the district. Reiver comes from the widows be be-reived by gangs of cut throats roaming the aria. This was done through a church that was supposed to pronounce the love of Jesus to all. Instead it churned the population into a frenzy of hate and mistrust.

I perceive through, where Jesus has bought me to in my life, that this binding and releasing is a spiritual thing, It as a weapon against satan, which can be used to pronounce "freedom for the captives". It should not be used against the house hold of faith to regulate what people should wear or eat or do.

When Jesus talked about binding and releasing, He said what it was for, to take away the armour of the enemy, the things it trusts in, it's lies and deceptions that keep the world bound in sin. First we bind it then take away what it trusts in then we are free to relieve it of its ill gotten gains. We have through the Spirit of God and prayer a weapon more powerful than anything the enemy can withstand, "Greater is He that is in me than he that is in the world", Jesus is the name that is above every name, and no weapon forged against me will prosper. God will turn cursing's to blessings when they are pronounced against His Bride, he will turn the curse back on the one who uses it.

The Church of Jesus Christ, the Bride of Christ, those He has called by His name and who's names are written in the book of life, are not bound by ;

if any one adds to it or retracts from the written word of God it will be to their pain and torment, and this does not come from me.

I haver total freedom in Jesus the Christ, the Son of God, to eat and wear or not what ever I please, because my heart wants to please Him who created me and saved me. I will not stand in the way of any one for how they dress or behave, I will love them as I am directed by the Holy Spirit, even to my own destruction if that is what the Lord wants, I only pray for strength to stand and not falter.

bikerchaz · Aug 28, 2016

Marcelo said:

I apologise for hurting you, that was not my intention at all. You did word your questions in a way that misled my thoughts. EG, you put;

I do not agree with you that church leaders have the authority. We all have this authority, ALL in Jesus. The church will keep pew sitters in pews and the leaders who retain their authority through names like vicar, priest and elder who are to serve and wash the feet of their ecclesia, not be paid to lord it over them.

The Church is here for all not a few, it is to proclaim the freedom from satans grasp and lead everyone to full maturity so everyone can pastor and teach and heal and prophesy and give a tongue and an interpretation, everyone, this does not mean chaos, this means letting Jesus run His church, it means letting Jesus convict someone who's clothing is proving to be a problem for someone. It means Jesus will do, not me or a 'leader', it means we can all do in Jesus name and in the unity He brings us to in the Father, not one person but us all as a body of many parts in the unity of the Spirit.

You wrote this;

and this;

No I do not agree, I do not care how any one cuts their hair or what they wear, I always greet with a holy Kiss, I think it bothers some, But no one is in the lead, Those I meet with in love know me and I know them. I am no better or worse off than anyone else (I do not mean monetarily), we are all equal and Jesus teaches us through His word and by His spirit.

I do, because I have been led to, visit the local Methodist church when they break bread, once a month. Even there I greet with a Holy Kiss, well hug actually, some one will put their hand forward to shake mine and I will say, Hug me brother or sister, but I am always conscious that there could be problems with this so I never force this on any one. This meeting is full of what you describe, and there in the middle is me. People come over to me to talk and see if I need saving, they never come twice, I am not what they expect when they talk to me.

This is what my take on who is in charge within the true Church is, this whole thing is;

John 14
[SUP]15 [/SUP]“If you love me, keep my commands. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— [SUP]17 [/SUP]the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[SUP][c][/SUP] in you. [SUP]18 [/SUP]I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. [SUP]20 [/SUP]On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

[SUP]22 [/SUP]Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

[SUP]25 [/SUP]“All this I have spoken while still with you. [SUP]26 [/SUP]But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. [SUP]27 [/SUP]Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

[SUP]28 [/SUP]“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. [SUP]29 [/SUP]I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. [SUP]30 [/SUP]I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, [SUP]31 [/SUP]but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me.

The first apostles had an enormous task of bringing the Jews who were steeped in traditions and laws into the light of Jesus, and the gentiles who new nothing of what God really was because they only saw what the Jews proclaimed, and we know what Jesus thought of that.

We are all called to be pastors, we are all called to be teachers, we are all called to be the people Jesus wants in the full maturity of our faith. We must all grow and fulfil our potential. On the last day when we stand before Him, and we all will, we can not say, "But the vicar/pastor/priest told me this or that" that will be no defence against what we do know and have heard. We all hear Jesus, the point is who do we listen to, Jesus or someone else in authority through tradition.

You are right there is only Jesus, I applaud you for knowing this, but it does seem to me that you listen to others. Some may have a message, but in the end it comes down to what we have heard from Jesus and does it marry up with the written word. Everything Paul wrote must be taken in the context it was written in, yes there is a message for us there but when it comes to putting down laws of dress code etc I want no part.

Again I do apologise if I made you feel hurt that was not my intent. If you meet me you can ignore and forget me. If you meet Jesus and ignore Him, that has more serious consequences.

Thank you for your blessing and I return it again to you twice over. I pray that you through the Holy Spirit will hear and understand the grace that God has given to all of us through the sacrifice of His Son. I Him, Jesus the Christ I pray wisdom for you and the fulfilment of all your desires in Him.
Chaz.

RBA238 · Aug 28, 2016

Adstar said:

No Paul does not say that woman must wear a veil when they pray.. He said that God has given woman long hair as a covering and it is good for a woman to have long hair He also said it was good for a man to have short hair..

1 Corinthians 11 : KJV

13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?
14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.
16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

Right on target!!

Marcelo · Aug 28, 2016

bikerchaz said:

Ok, Bikerchaz, thanks for your opinion!

garee · Aug 28, 2016

Marcelo said:

Like another said; none.

Although Christians do have the authority of God in these earthen vessel of death, the authority to believe God or have other believe is not of us .Can’t serve two masters as teaching authorities. Because them you run into the law based on hate (not bless) the one by not doing what is heard, and love by blessing doing the work of another, and vice versa.

2Co 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

It is one of those verses that clearly the paraphrases in most Bibles have turned upside down .It in the end shows offensive to God. I have no idea why they would paraphrase it that way? I am not claiming to be a teacher but it confuses the matter, I believe.

And like for instance with the Catholic. They have made men (Peter) the key that the gates of hell could never prevail against in respect to the binding and loosening law. Again in a majority of the paraphrases. ..

The common paraphrase below in the King James would seem to give them some idea of credit in respect to men

And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven Mat 16:19 King James

Or the New Living Translation (NLT)

19 And I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. Whatever you forbid on earth will be forbidden in heaven, and whatever you permitn on earth will be permitted in heaven.” Mat 16:19 New Living Translation (NLT)
Or the New International Version (NIV)

9 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will bebound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”Mathew 16 NIV

The Young’s literal seems to have the Greek tense correctly that would glorify the unseen Potter, and not glorying in the flesh of that seen Peter, (the work he is forming Christ in and not of)

19 and I will give to thee the keys of the reign of the heavens, and whatever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever thou mayest loose upon the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens.'Mathew 16 YLT

The same in chapter 18

18 `Verily I say to you, Whatever things ye may bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever things ye may loose on the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens.
19 `Again, I say to you, that, if two of you may agree on the earth concerning anything, whatever they may ask -- it shall be done to them from my Father who is in the heavens, 'Mathew 16 YLT

If we were to make the binding in respect to men according to the king James and most others (whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven) it would destroy the gospel showing us whose foot (Satan) is in the door of the church.

Mat 16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Mathew 16 KJ

PaulMack · Aug 28, 2016

What is interesting is this subjected has been debated for centuries AND there are two sides taken for this debate. One side says the binding and loosing is for the Believers and the other side says the binding and loosing is for the Church.

Most of those who defend its for the Church are Jewish people and most who defend its the Believers are of the Gentiles.

It seems to split by race and culture, which is interesting.

As for me i believe binding and loosing is only for the believers in Christ, not for the Church, like the Roman Catholic Church, to make up man made laws to keep people in bondage to the Church.

"Whatever you bind on Earth will be bound in Heaven".

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