Torah Keeping Unable to Save...what actual Jewish Christians Say

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LaurenTM

Guest
#1



Baruch Maoz, an Israeli pastor of Jewish extraction, doesn’t believe it is wrong for Christians of Jewish cultural background to keep the feasts. At the same time, he explains why Gentile Christians shouldn’t observe the Old Testament feasts or other aspects of Old Testament ritual—they have been fulfilled in Jesus Christ. They are the “shadow”; He is the reality.

The Mosaic Law in its moral aspects has lost none of its commanding authority. The moral aspects of the covenant are now the rule of life for all those who live by grace. That is one of the reasons why the English Puritans and the Scottish Covenanters identified so warmly with our forefathers. While they longed and prayed for the salvation of our people and our restoration to grace, they knew themselves to be bound to our destiny by the common duties they shared with us as promulgated in the Mosaic Law.
Messiah and the Law

Of course, the ritual aspects of the Law, its symbols, hopes and expectations, all find fulfillment in Jesus. Having been fulfilled, they no longer have the religious value they had in the past yet, for us Jewish Christians, they form part of our national culture. The shadows have passed to give room for the reality, and it is not right for us to insist upon those shadows as if they were still in force. The Mosaic religious institutions, including the sacrifices; the feasts; the specific form of the Sabbath duties; and the restrictions and requirements in terms of dress codes, beards and the such like, are no longer binding. Nor may we exercise our liberty by living as if they were binding. It is our glad and happy duty to demonstrate by our lives, our worship and our communal behaviour that Messiah has come.

The ritual aspects of the Law, particularly the sacrifices, intimated God’s method of salvation, but salvation itself was never provided by it except as it reflected the sacrifice of Messiah. It was not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats could provide a sufficient sacrifice (Heb. 10:4). The promise of forgiveness made in the Torah was dependent on the sacrifice of Messiah and derived its strength from that ultimate sacrifice.

To act now as if Messiah came but did not affect our relation to the Law is—as I said before—to deny with our lives what our mouths profess.


SOURCE
 
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KohenMatt

Senior Member
Jun 28, 2013
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#2
I don't come from a Jewish background, and was never exposed to Judaism prior to salvation. I entered into a saving relationship with Jesus when I was 16. I had nothing to do with anything law-related until 13 years ago.

I've been keeping the Sabbath and the Biblical Feasts since then. Yes, these feasts are "shadows," (perhaps a better description would be foreshadows) and reminders of what Jesus has done. But a physical and intentional keeping of those days can have an immense value to every Christian today because of this reminder. (As an aside, I find it ironic that many Christians speak so strongly against the Feast days because they are "shadows" of the substance of Jesus, yet fully endorse the celebrating of easter and christmas, even those are similar "shadows" of the substance of Jesus.)

I also know that a great number of people who oppose keeping the feast days because they're only shadows have never bothered to keep any of them themselves. I feel confident that if folks tried to keep any of these in light of what Jesus' life, death and resurrection accomplished, they wouldn't be able to be so adamantly opposed to them.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,188
113
#3
Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

The yoke of bondage is you working at commandments in your own understanding and by your own strength.

The Liberty in Christ is when we trusted Him and Him alone. To give us Grace, Mercy and Salvation.


Those who proclaim law and their own work firstly don't hear what the law says and secondly haven't received the necessary Revelation of who Christ is and what He has done.

What is kind of frustrating is that they don't really want to hear what the law says and they don't really want a revelation of Christ. They just want to work according to their understanding like they've always done.
 
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eph610

Guest
#4
I don't come from a Jewish background, and was never exposed to Judaism prior to salvation. I entered into a saving relationship with Jesus when I was 16. I had nothing to do with anything law-related until 13 years ago.

I've been keeping the Sabbath and the Biblical Feasts since then. Yes, these feasts are "shadows," (perhaps a better description would be foreshadows) and reminders of what Jesus has done. But a physical and intentional keeping of those days can have an immense value to every Christian today because of this reminder. (As an aside, I find it ironic that many Christians speak so strongly against the Feast days because they are "shadows" of the substance of Jesus, yet fully endorse the celebrating of easter and christmas, even those are similar "shadows" of the substance of Jesus.)

I also know that a great number of people who oppose keeping the feast days because they're only shadows have never bothered to keep any of them themselves. I feel confident that if folks tried to keep any of these in light of what Jesus' life, death and resurrection accomplished, they wouldn't be able to be so adamantly opposed to them.
Yeah we gentiles call this communion or partaking of the Lord's supper...as you should.
 
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LaurenTM

Guest
#5
thing is, JEWISH Christians do not ascribe to the law keeping festivities and Paul fought continuously with the Judaizers

yet certain Gentiles WANT to be judged by the law!!!

it boggles the mind!
 
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TrailofTruth

Guest
#7
The bible says that if you obey a law, that you must obey all of that law. If someone today wants to obey the physical laws of Moses instead of the spiritual laws of Christ, they are going to have a hard time finding a high priest over 2,000 years old to sacrifice on behalf of their sins. All the while ignoring the sacrificed Lamb of God- Who should now be their only high priest. (Read Romans 7:1-4)

The old law was only a shadow of the real law now in effect. It only represented the real law to come. For example, the physically perfect lamb sacrificed represented the spiritual Lamb of God who was sacrificed once for all. The tabernacle was a physical representation of the spiritual layout- you had to wash (baptism) to get into the holy place (Christ's church). You had to eat the bread in the holy place (the Lord's supper). And you had to enter the most holy place (heaven) to be in the presence of God. Problem was only the high priest (Christ) could enter the most holy place.

But Jesus, our high priest, tore down the barrier. Now, those who are in the holy place can enter the most holy place and be with God. Most pictures of the ark of the covenant show the Angel's wings touching each other. Whoever drew these did not have the proper understanding. They were bent toward each other, with a space between them, because they were worshiping God in between them, they weren't bowing down to each other, but to God. God dwells everywhere, but He was showing us a representation of the reality.

All the things under the old law (and by old I mean the physical way of doing it) had a representation of what was to come. The old law feasts represented what the New Testament calls our love feasts, today we call it potluck. If these people observe the old law by observing the old law feasts, they must obey all of it- including taking someone out of the city and stoning them to death for committing adultery, while disobeying Romans 7:1-4.
 
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eph610

Guest
#8
thing is, JEWISH Christians do not ascribe to the law keeping festivities and Paul fought continuously with the Judaizers

yet certain Gentiles WANT to be judged by the law!!!

it boggles the mind!
The Hebrews roots movement are not the only ones. We were doing a tent meeting and invited anyone from any church to attend. The Non-Denominational, Southern, Free-Will, Independent and General Baptists got up and walked out when I started preaching that you cannot be a sinner saved by grace, because you cannot be both. Then the Holiness Pentecostals, Assembly of God, Church of God left when I stated you cannot lose your salvation like a set of Car keys, when you disobey the law, but rather you can walk away from your faith and be lost. The Church of Christ left when I said you are not saved by Water Baptism, they started leaving once they saw we had instruments for worship anyway. We did not get any Catholics, Lutherans or Presbyterians, which only left the devil worshipers, witches, drug addicts, hurt and dying, battered and tattered, busted and disgusted by religion, and mature believers, and the Methodists....We had 35 first time salvation's that night out of who was left and the mature believers helped us on the prayer line. We saw people bound by porn, drugs, alcohol throw it all away and become new in the saviors arms....The Methodists stayed and just smiled and helped get tissues, etc for everyone. Everyone really enjoyed the food they brought afterwards. We had more than enough, because religion left the tent and the Holy Spirit came down.
 
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LaurenTM

Guest
#9
The Hebrews roots movement are not the only ones. We were doing a tent meeting and invited anyone from any church to attend. The Non-Denominational, Southern, Free-Will, Independent and General Baptists got up and walked out when I started preaching that you cannot be a sinner saved by grace, because you cannot be both. Then the Holiness Pentecostals, Assembly of God, Church of God left when I stated you cannot lose your salvation like a set of Car keys, when you disobey the law, but rather you can walk away from your faith and be lost. The Church of Christ left when I said you are not saved by Water Baptism, they started leaving once they saw we had instruments for worship anyway. We did not get any Catholics, Lutherans or Presbyterians, which only left the devil worshipers, witches, drug addicts, hurt and dying, battered and tattered, busted and disgusted by religion, and mature believers, and the Methodists....We had 35 first time salvation's that night out of who was left and the mature believers helped us on the prayer line. We saw people bound by porn, drugs, alcohol throw it all away and become new in the saviors arms....The Methodists stayed and just smiled and helped get tissues, etc for everyone. Everyone really enjoyed the food they brought afterwards. We had more than enough, because religion left the tent and the Holy Spirit came down.

woulda liked to have been there

where I am from, Baptists are hard to come by

was baptized as an infant in the Lutheran church...(and still like water LOL!) but was saved at 5 in a Brethren church which my family went to for the next 15 yrs...

I like my reality with a good dose of people being genuinely saved and filled with the Spirit of God and that wonderful grace, mercy and love that is present as people are ministered to by God...instead of people being shoved backwards and screamed over or being told they are healed when they are not

I think you know what I mean...:eek:
 
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eph610

Guest
#10
woulda liked to have been there

where I am from, Baptists are hard to come by

was baptized as an infant in the Lutheran church...(and still like water LOL!) but was saved at 5 in a Brethren church which my family went to for the next 15 yrs...

I like my reality with a good dose of people being genuinely saved and filled with the Spirit of God and that wonderful grace, mercy and love that is present as people are ministered to by God...instead of people being shoved backwards and screamed over or being told they are healed when they are not

I think you know what I mean...:eek:
As a Matter of fact, I do, the WOF movement never showed up, Tent ministry was not lucrative enough for them... ;)
 
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LaurenTM

Guest
#11
The bible says that if you obey a law, that you must obey all of that law. If someone today wants to obey the physical laws of Moses instead of the spiritual laws of Christ, they are going to have a hard time finding a high priest over 2,000 years old to sacrifice on behalf of their sins. All the while ignoring the sacrificed Lamb of God- Who should now be their only high priest. (Read Romans 7:1-4)

The old law was only a shadow of the real law now in effect. It only represented the real law to come. For example, the physically perfect lamb sacrificed represented the spiritual Lamb of God who was sacrificed once for all. The tabernacle was a physical representation of the spiritual layout- you had to wash (baptism) to get into the holy place (Christ's church). You had to eat the bread in the holy place (the Lord's supper). And you had to enter the most holy place (heaven) to be in the presence of God. Problem was only the high priest (Christ) could enter the most holy place.

But Jesus, our high priest, tore down the barrier. Now, those who are in the holy place can enter the most holy place and be with God. Most pictures of the ark of the covenant show the Angel's wings touching each other. Whoever drew these did not have the proper understanding. They were bent toward each other, with a space between them, because they were worshiping God in between them, they weren't bowing down to each other, but to God. God dwells everywhere, but He was showing us a representation of the reality.

All the things under the old law (and by old I mean the physical way of doing it) had a representation of what was to come. The old law feasts represented what the New Testament calls our love feasts, today we call it potluck. If these people observe the old law by observing the old law feasts, they must obey all of it- including taking someone out of the city and stoning them to death for committing adultery, while disobeying Romans 7:1-4.
the bolded part above...this is such a rich part of the OT...so much can be learned and studied and how it foreshadowed the final passover Lamb...bout gives me goosebumps! have studied in detail, but always more to learn

now that, would make a wonderful thread only we would keep being told that nothing has changed

they miss the entire point! and how wonderful God's plan of salvation is...He always had it in mind

I can't really comprehend all these things
 
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eph610

Guest
#12
the bolded part above...this is such a rich part of the OT...so much can be learned and studied and how it foreshadowed the final passover Lamb...bout gives me goosebumps! have studied in detail, but always more to learn

now that, would make a wonderful thread only we would keep being told that nothing has changed

they miss the entire point! and how wonderful God's plan of salvation is...He always had it in mind

I can't really comprehend all these things
We have been blessed to see the veil removed from the heart and spiritual eyes of folks several times. Many have been Pastors and their wives who had been in ministry for years or even decades. When the Spirit of the Lord hits them, it is always such a joy to see the look in the eyes, faces and hearts.
 

KohenMatt

Senior Member
Jun 28, 2013
4,021
222
63
#13
the bolded part above...this is such a rich part of the OT...so much can be learned and studied and how it foreshadowed the final passover Lamb...bout gives me goosebumps! have studied in detail, but always more to learn

now that, would make a wonderful thread only we would keep being told that nothing has changed

they miss the entire point! and how wonderful God's plan of salvation is...He always had it in mind

I can't really comprehend all these things
Have you ever done a Passover dinner? There can be such a contrast between those that do it strictly out of a ritual obligation that is void of any symbolism of Jesus' sacrifice, and those that make the whole seder (dinner/service) about remembering His sacrifice!

I've been to both, and those that do the former type of services grieve my spirit.
 
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eph610

Guest
#14
Have you ever done a Passover dinner? There can be such a contrast between those that do it strictly out of a ritual obligation that is void of any symbolism of Jesus' sacrifice, and those that make the whole seder (dinner/service) about remembering His sacrifice!

I've been to both, and those that do the former type of services grieve my spirit.
So you are grieved about those who do it about remembering His sacrifice!?!?
 
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FreeNChrist

Guest
#15
Have you ever done a Passover dinner? There can be such a contrast between those that do it strictly out of a ritual obligation that is void of any symbolism of Jesus' sacrifice, and those that make the whole seder (dinner/service) about remembering His sacrifice!

I've been to both, and those that do the former type of services grieve my spirit.
Christians have the Lords table, instituted by Jesus Himself, as our memorial of Him and His sacrifice.
 

KohenMatt

Senior Member
Jun 28, 2013
4,021
222
63
#16
So you are grieved about those who do it about remembering His sacrifice!?!?
Of course not. I said I was grieved about those who do Passover out of a ritual obligation that is void of any symbolism of Jesus' sacrifice.

I am blessed by those who celebrate Passover as a means of remembering Jesus' sacrifice all throughout the Seder.
 

KohenMatt

Senior Member
Jun 28, 2013
4,021
222
63
#17
Christians have the Lords table, instituted by Jesus Himself, as our memorial of Him and His sacrifice.
Correct. Does that mean there can only be one memorial opportunity, though?
 
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FreeNChrist

Guest
#18
Correct. Does that mean there can only be one memorial opportunity, though?
There is no "other". Jesus took the components of that last Passover and redefined them as the elements of His table. Marking the end of the Old and the beginning of the New. The next day He would be slain and the reality, the substance would come, and the symbols and shadows would cease.
 

KohenMatt

Senior Member
Jun 28, 2013
4,021
222
63
#19
Jesus took the components of that last Passover and redefined them as the elements of His table. Marking the end of the Old and the beginning of the New. The next day He would be slain and the reality, the substance would come, and the symbols and shadows would cease.
While I agree with much of what you just said, I disagree that the symbols and shadows cease to the point that you shouldn't celebrate them as a reminder of his sacrifice.
 
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eph610

Guest
#20
Of course not. I said I was grieved about those who do Passover out of a ritual obligation that is void of any symbolism of Jesus' sacrifice.

I am blessed by those who celebrate Passover as a means of remembering Jesus' sacrifice all throughout the Seder.
Ok thanks because below is what you said:

Have you ever done a Passover dinner? There can be such a contrast between those that do it strictly out of a ritual obligation that is void of any symbolism of Jesus' sacrifice, and those that make the whole seder (dinner/service) about remembering His sacrifice!

I've been to both, and those that do the former type of services grieve my spirit.
You said former, the former sentence in this paragraph is:

and those that make the whole seder (dinner/service) about remembering His sacrifice!