Prayer intervenes Freewill

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Angela53510

Angela53510

Senior Member
#21
Jan 24, 2011
11,780
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113
#21
I'm not seeing the term "free will" anywhere in the bible. Please show me where you get this from.

As for prayer, you need to dig deep and find out that prayer is not about begging the sovereign God for goodies, well meaning or otherwise.

We pray to know God better. As we know him better, we learn to trust him, and he uses prayer to change us, instead changing of the world around us.

God does answer prayer, sometimes even frivolous prayers, like you mention in the OP. But that has nothing to do with "our" free will, but rather the goodness and love of God for us.
 
Grace777x70

Grace777x70

Banned
#22
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,430
0
#22
God works on our wills and also gives us the ability to do what He wants as well - all based on His love and grace and mercy which He reveals to us.

Philippians 2:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
 
Silverwings

Silverwings

Senior Member
#23
Jul 27, 2016
1,368
495
83
#23
Ivon said:
Wouldn't an answered prayer intervenes freewill? Then why pray?

Example: I pray for Lisa to fall in love with me & God answered my prayer. Isnt this violates Lisa's freewill because God influences her mind?

God can influence her, but He will never make her do anything!!
Click to expand...
 
G

garee

Banned
#24
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
#24
eph610 said:
you are missing my point because you want to make it about being elected and not free will....Exodus 3.19 shows us that there was now way Pharaoh was going to let the people go, so God simply used what he had to work with....an already hardened heart and he made it harder.

If Pharaoh was open to letting the people Go and then God hardened a soft heart then you might have an example.
Click to expand...
Good point.

Most believe in some sort of imputed work of righteousness that God applies to our hearts. Philippians 2 informs us, it is God who works in us to both will and do His good pleasure.

Seeing it is he who defines what is good by that in which he created and what is evil that opposes His will of creation.

In Job 23 I think that position is strengthened by the idea that God is of one mind and always does whatsoever His soul pleases for he perform that which is appointed to us and then he declares it is he who makes our hearts soft.

In that sense rather than saying God hardened the heart of the Pharaoh he simply did not have mercy on Him because it was his desire to so. He has mercy on whom so ever he has mercy .

Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Romans 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
 
Utah

Utah

Banned
#25
Dec 1, 2014
9,701
251
0
#25
Ivon said:
Isnt this the same as saying God's intervention is not sufficient enough as its still primarily depends on the targeted person's after action?
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Dude, God's intervention was to send His Son to die on the cross and yet still people have free will to deny the saving grace afforded them.
 
M

mpaper345

Banned
#26
Feb 9, 2010
2,486
39
0
#26
God touching our hearts,or trying to steer us in the right direction,is not violating our freewill,but a guidance,but what we do with it is still our choice,which that guidance will always be for our benefit.

The things we see in society,and the world,signs that advertise,and advertisement in general,that try to influence us to buy their product,and people trying to influence us for whatever reason,would you say that is a violation of our freewill,for the choice is still up to us to heed them.

God is not violating our freewill if He tries to guide those whose hearts seek truth,and He wants to guide them to Him,and the truth,for they still have the choice in the matter,like the world is not violating our freewill by trying to influence us with whatever they are trying to influence us with,for we still have the choice in the matter.

For no matter what,we will be influenced by something as long as our brains are turned on,and working,but we still have the choice in the matter.

1Pe 2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

God visits all people to cause them to think upon the truth,but they still have a choice what they will do with it,for if God was violating our freewill,that visits all people to cause them to think upon Him,everybody would be with God,and nobody lost.

God can touch Lisa's heart to think upon you,for you like her,but He will not force her to make that decision to like you,which I believe we should not be concerned with it,but prayer for our needs,or pray for a wife,but do not pick out someone,for God knows the hearts,and He will take care of it,for He knows what two people would best like each other,and be compatible.

Is the teacher violating the students freewill that wants to learn that subject,so God does not violate a person that claims Christ,for they want that,so it cannot apply there,and God does not violate the freewill of the world,but will try to guide them if they seek truth,but they still have a choice in the matter,and it is always for their good.

Is God violating the freewill of the world by the Christians reaching out to them,again no,for they still have a choice in the matter.

If suggestions,and influences,are a violation of our freewill,then I suppose a lot of things is a violation of our freewill.McDonald's advertisement,stop violating my freewill.Hey do you want to go to summer camp,stop violating my freewill.

God does not force,only advertises His truth,but the choice is still ours.
 
Angela53510

Angela53510

Senior Member
#27
Jan 24, 2011
11,780
2,943
113
#27
Please, please, please! Where is free will in the Bible?

I think it is an American construct and has absolutely nothing to do with how God allows us to follow him. And don't post a lot of
"will" scriptures! That is a totally different thing than "free will."
 
D

Diego007

Guest
#28
#28
I think that the argument over free will becomes a little ridiculous. Free will is as old as Adam and Eve. They CHOSE to eat of the fruit of the tree. And we have been paying for it ever since. But to suggest that we don't have free will is a bit much. Our will is corrupted by sin, such that we USUALLY choose the worst part of two choices, but that doesn't mean that we don't CHOOSE it for ourselves.
 
E

eph610

Guest
#29
#29
Diego007 said:
I think that the argument over free will becomes a little ridiculous. Free will is as old as Adam and Eve. They CHOSE to eat of the fruit of the tree. And we have been paying for it ever since. But to suggest that we don't have free will is a bit much. Our will is corrupted by sin, such that we USUALLY choose the worst part of two choices, but that doesn't mean that we don't CHOOSE it for ourselves.
Click to expand...

The Old man died with Christ, which means you get your choice back as to whether you will be a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness.
 
resurrection33

resurrection33

Banned
#30
Dec 19, 2009
27,513
128
0
71
#30
Ivon said:
Wouldn't an answered prayer intervenes freewill? Then why pray?

Example: I pray for Lisa to fall in love with me & God answered my prayer. Isnt this violates Lisa's freewill because God influences her mind?
Click to expand...
The Lord won't force Lisa to fall in love with you.
 
I

Ivon

Member
#31
Aug 30, 2016
66
2
6
#31
eph610 said:
sorry play time is over now, thanks for playing.
Click to expand...
I'm not playing here, trying to clear that confusion in my mind. I changed example is to prove my point, the root cause of my question, not because I'm trying to 'challenge' or annoy whatsoever you may think.
 
I

Ivon

Member
#32
Aug 30, 2016
66
2
6
#32
Silverwings said:
Ivon said:
Wouldn't an answered prayer intervenes freewill? Then why pray?

Example: I pray for Lisa to fall in love with me & God answered my prayer. Isnt this violates Lisa's freewill because God influences her mind?

God can influence her, but He will never make her do anything!!
Click to expand...
Ok then I fall back to the example of Jonah's story, can I rightfully say God interferes with Jonah's freewill by causing a big fish to swallow him and make him do the necessary? Jonah don't even have the slightest desire to help that barbaric tribe...
Click to expand...
 
I

Ivon

Member
#33
Aug 30, 2016
66
2
6
#33
garee said:
Good point.

Most believe in some sort of imputed work of righteousness that God applies to our hearts. Philippians 2 informs us, it is God who works in us to both will and do His good pleasure.

Seeing it is he who defines what is good by that in which he created and what is evil that opposes His will of creation.

In Job 23 I think that position is strengthened by the idea that God is of one mind and always does whatsoever His soul pleases for he perform that which is appointed to us and then he declares it is he who makes our hearts soft.

In that sense rather than saying God hardened the heart of the Pharaoh he simply did not have mercy on Him because it was his desire to so. He has mercy on whom so ever he has mercy .

Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Romans 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Click to expand...
ok @eph and @garee, I got your point. What about Jonah who did not want to help that tribe, but God sent a big fish and you know the story.
 
I

Ivon

Member
#34
Aug 30, 2016
66
2
6
#34
Utah said:
Dude, God's intervention was to send His Son to die on the cross and yet still people have free will to deny the saving grace afforded them.
Click to expand...
That is not intervention. Intervene means you do something to cause a direct/immediate result. God sent his son because He loves us, therefore providing a us a chance to reconcile with Him. That is not intervention right? And my question here is not about whether or not peoples freewill getting denied.
 
I

Ivon

Member
#35
Aug 30, 2016
66
2
6
#35
Angela53510 said:
Please, please, please! Where is free will in the Bible?

I think it is an American construct and has absolutely nothing to do with how God allows us to follow him. And don't post a lot of
"will" scriptures! That is a totally different thing than "free will."
Click to expand...
Bible doesn have that word 'rapture' too and we know its a fact that will take place anytime. The fact that we are not robot means we are given freewill is it not.
 
I

Ivon

Member
#36
Aug 30, 2016
66
2
6
#36
mpaper345 said:
God touching our hearts,or trying to steer us in the right direction,is not violating our freewill,but a guidance,but what we do with it is still our choice,which that guidance will always be for our benefit.

The things we see in society,and the world,signs that advertise,and advertisement in general,that try to influence us to buy their product,and people trying to influence us for whatever reason,would you say that is a violation of our freewill,for the choice is still up to us to heed them.

God is not violating our freewill if He tries to guide those whose hearts seek truth,and He wants to guide them to Him,and the truth,for they still have the choice in the matter,like the world is not violating our freewill by trying to influence us with whatever they are trying to influence us with,for we still have the choice in the matter.

For no matter what,we will be influenced by something as long as our brains are turned on,and working,but we still have the choice in the matter.

1Pe 2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

God visits all people to cause them to think upon the truth,but they still have a choice what they will do with it,for if God was violating our freewill,that visits all people to cause them to think upon Him,everybody would be with God,and nobody lost.

God can touch Lisa's heart to think upon you,for you like her,but He will not force her to make that decision to like you,which I believe we should not be concerned with it,but prayer for our needs,or pray for a wife,but do not pick out someone,for God knows the hearts,and He will take care of it,for He knows what two people would best like each other,and be compatible.

Is the teacher violating the students freewill that wants to learn that subject,so God does not violate a person that claims Christ,for they want that,so it cannot apply there,and God does not violate the freewill of the world,but will try to guide them if they seek truth,but they still have a choice in the matter,and it is always for their good.

Is God violating the freewill of the world by the Christians reaching out to them,again no,for they still have a choice in the matter.

If suggestions,and influences,are a violation of our freewill,then I suppose a lot of things is a violation of our freewill.McDonald's advertisement,stop violating my freewill.Hey do you want to go to summer camp,stop violating my freewill.

God does not force,only advertises His truth,but the choice is still ours.
Click to expand...
Hi @mpaper, I love the way you use illustrations in your response, helps me to easily understand your point. But when God decides to answer a prayer request, am I not right to assume that He will sure make it happen? If not, then what is the point of Him even deciding to answer my prayer request in the first place? So when He decides to answer my prayer, using Lisa's example, He is interfering Lisa's original train of thoughts, isn't that the same as causing her to do something that she usually wont do; like a subtle free will intervention thing?
 
Utah

Utah

Banned
#37
Dec 1, 2014
9,701
251
0
#37
Angela53510 said:
Please, please, please! Where is free will in the Bible?

I think it is an American construct and has absolutely nothing to do with how God allows us to follow him. And don't post a lot of
"will" scriptures! That is a totally different thing than "free will."
Click to expand...
Let's go to the filet mignon of Scripture, John 3:16-17.

Scripture states that whosever believes in Him shall be saved. It does not say, whosoever has been appointed, directed, chosen or manipulated into acknowledging, it says, whosever believes in him. This suggests we have the right and the free will to chose rather than go through life as robotic slaves. :)
 
Utah

Utah

Banned
#38
Dec 1, 2014
9,701
251
0
#38
Ivon said:
That is not intervention. Intervene means you do something to cause a direct/immediate result. God sent his son because He loves us, therefore providing a us a chance to reconcile with Him. That is not intervention right? And my question here is not about whether or not peoples freewill getting denied.
Click to expand...
Ivon, there is no greater intervention in all history than Jesus dying on the Cross. Intervention does not have to have an immediate result, but make no mistake, regarding eternity, Jesus' intervention most definitely has a direct result on each and every one of us.

As far as Jonah goes, God chose him for a mission and obviously you know the story of the great fish. Was Jonah's free will revoked? Seems like he was drafted into God's army at that point, but in the end, Jonah had the ability to continue to refuse to go to Nineveh, hence, he always had his free will.
 
Grace777x70

Grace777x70

Banned
#39
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,430
0
#39
We can't manipulate God by trying to so-called "faith" things into our lives. ( like trying to get a Lisa to want to marry us )

We are to delight ourselves in the Lord - and He will give us the desires of our heart.

He puts the desires from Him into us as we delight in the Lord. Delight - have pleasure in, live by His life inside of us and He will give us the desires that are from Him.

Psalm 37:4-5 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Delight yourself in the LORD; And He will give you the desires of your heart.

[SUP]5 [/SUP] Commit your way to the LORD, Trust also in Him, and He will do it.

Proverbs 19:21 (NASB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] Many plans are in a man's heart, But the counsel of the LORD will stand.
 
I

Ivon

Member
#40
Aug 30, 2016
66
2
6
#40
Agree @Utah, the fact that Jonah chose not to follow God's instruction initially was already a reflection of his freewill. As to God who 'summoned' the great fish, whatever the reason for God to use such a hard approach, that is a another matter on its own, nothing to do with any hindrance of Jonah's freewill, i get you, thanks @Utah
 
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