*** A VERY SHORT POST TRIB RAPTURE THREAD***

[PlainWord]

2 Thess.2:3 originally read as folloiws:

In vs 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation]

In what translation was the 70th week of Daniel invoked relative to 2 Thes 2:3? Let me guess, it was in the notes of the Scofield reference Bible? I hate to break it to you but "NOTES" are not part of the text. I don't recall any Biblical teaching where Cyrus I. Scofield was given divine inspiration to add anything to God's Word!! In fact, he may have a little answering to do for all the problems he caused with his dispensation theory that he borrowed from Darby.

Aside from that. The below is from my Interlinear Bible showing the original Greek text along with the KJV translation. You will NOT see any reference to Daniel's 70th week. This version is older than Scofield and more accurate by a mile.



So please answer my question, how does the 70th week of Daniel have anything to do with the Great Tribulation since it says clearly that those 70 weeks were for Daniel's People and their Holy City (Jerusalem)? Whose got the bullet hole in the foot now?

Sorry brother, I shouldn't pick on you. I realize Scofield was the man in his day and this is what everyone was taught back then. Most churches don't even teach the rapture anymore. So many older Christians are obsessed by it thinking it could happen any day like the clouds would open and Jesus would come to take us all home. This is what my mom and dad think.

Its sad that so many don't realize that the real rapture happens on the last day of this earth age just after the resurrection. But I don't see any harm in you believing as you do brother. So, God bless you.

 

[popeye]

If anyone is interested I posted the kinsman redeemer typology on a new thread on Ruth,and rev 5

 

[PlainWord]

Ok,you are basing that presumption on "two resurrections",thinking you are reconciling a need to have only Two.

The only thing is,you now have millions of resurrections,and I know those caskets of deceased believers STILL HAVE CADAVERS in them.

The dead RISE,THEY WILL RISE,they don't descend,they RISE,and we meet them in the air.

There is no 2resurrection conflict.

Otherwise the resurrection of the 2 witnesses would be bogus,and prohibitive.

Under your template,we have millions of resurrections.

Thomas,who disappeared,was a mid trib,and his stumbling block was in fact,the two witness resurrection,and he attempted to MAKE the resurrection coincide with that event.

Erroneously thinking he had to alleviate the problem of a pretrib resurrection.


I am surprised you are doing a similar thing.

Are you still struggling with the concept of two resurrections and only two with no additional parts? The two witnesses represent both OT and NT church ages. It is all figurative and doesn't represent an additional separate resurrection.

The first resurrection is the spiritual one where a believer comes to Christ. There are literally millions of these as each of us come in our own order. The second and only other is the physical one which we all get, every dead believer OT and NT through the ages who are saved with souls in heaven. It really is that simple. Sorry if it destroys your whole rapture thingy.

John 11:25

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

 

[PlainWord]

None of us understands resurrection from the dead.

What is raised?

Well can rottenness be made unrotten?

Jesus can and will do just that.

In fact,he already showed us that he can.

I understand it and have been trying to show you.

2 Cor 5 gives a good lesson:

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; [SUP]15 [/SUP]and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.

While physically alive in our physical bodies, we are to be dead to the physical world but alive to the spiritual things. We should be living a new life, having been born again. How can you be born again if you haven't died? Therefore we need to die to worldly things and be resurrected into spiritual things which is everlasting life.

Everlasting life isn't waiting for us to die and be resurrected. Everlasting life comes the moment we accept Christ. I know, it's a difficult topic for some but trust me, this is the first resurrection. The second comes later and that one involves the graves opening for everyone, just and unjust. There is only one of those on the last day.

 

[popeye]

Are you still struggling with the concept of two resurrections and only two with no additional parts? The two witnesses represent both OT and NT church ages. It is all figurative and doesn't represent an additional separate resurrection.

The first resurrection is the spiritual one where a believer comes to Christ. There are literally millions of these as each of us come in our own order. The second and only other is the physical one which we all get, every dead believer OT and NT through the ages who are saved with souls in heaven. It really is that simple. Sorry if it destroys your whole rapture thingy.

John 11:25

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

You need look no further.
1 Thes 4 "the dead in christ"

According to you they are resurrected,not dead,since they resurrected at conversion.

Read it, believe it,and get off that mess you teach.

 

[PlainWord]

Actually Quasar, people will be resurrected in their same bodies, but they will be upgraded to immortal and glorified. Jesus is our example. After three days he returned to his body which was immoral and glorified, but it was the same body that he was crucified in. When he appeared before his disciples after resurrecting, scripture states that they were afraid because they thought they had seen a spirit. Jesus then comforts them saying,

"Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have."

When we are resurrected and changed, God will use our present bodies, which will be upgraded to heavenly status. The body that is sown is perishable (decays), it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor (sinful nature), it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.

I actually agree with you on this. This is the SECOND RESURRECTION. It is the one that happens on the Last Day as Jesus tells us 5 times. It is the ONLY resurrection and is associated with His Second Coming.

THIS IS THE SECOND RESURRECTION and it is for Absolutely ALL DEAD: afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Then comes the end...

THE FIRST RESURRECTION comes to believers only when they accept Christ.

If one does not understand this topic, one is likely to invent a lot of things not taught.

Live it, learn it, love it.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I absolutely read my Bible as much if not more than anyone on here. There is only one truth about all these things. Either Christ comes before Israel is attacked by overwhelming Muslim forces or He doesn't. You and your company say He does when there is absolutely no verse that locates any return of Christ before Israel is attacked.

I show you the figurative language at work in Revelation and many read it with eyes glossed over. Why? Because the things that I have found don't agree with the nonsense taught in all the different seminaries in the USA. Think of this, were the religious leaders in Christ's day correct about anything??? What makes our leaders any better? Experience? I think not.

I never said pre-tribbers will take the mark. Most of you have no idea what that even means. Most think computer chip. Utter nonsense. Most think Rome comes back to life. Are we seeing that happen?? There is the narrative of lies or there is reality of what is happening. EVERYTHING I've been saying is unfolding exactly as I said it would but you see me as stupid.

Russia will lead an attack with Islamic forces to the north of Israel against Israel. This is the Great Tribulation. Guess what? You will still be here to see it happen then wonder where your rapture is.

All of this is said with love and respect sister. Just trying to help you open your eyes.

I don't think you are stupid. But you think I am blind because I don't agree with your interpretation of prophecy. I believe it will happen just as fulfilled prophecy always has - literally. I've been given no inkling that this has changed (other than your opinion and interpretation.) And, in fact, I have a verse to back me up on that. It says: it will all happen just as He told the prophets.

 

[PlainWord]

I don't think you are stupid. But you think I am blind because I don't agree with your interpretation of prophecy. I believe it will happen just as fulfilled prophecy always has - literally. I've been given no inkling that this has changed (other than your opinion and interpretation.) And, in fact, I have a verse to back me up on that. It says: it will all happen just as He told the prophets.

...and the prophets used figurative language and John was copying them.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Good day Stunnedbygrace,

In regards to PW's post:

I absolutely read my Bible as much if not more than anyone on here. There is only one truth about all these things. Either Christ comes before Israel is attacked by overwhelming Muslim forces or He doesn't. You and your company say He does when there is absolutely no verse that locates any return of Christ before Israel is attacked.

Israel is going to be attacked by Gog and Magog, which consists of Rosh, the Slavonic nations, Meshek, Tubal, Persia, Cush, Put, Gomer with all its troops, and Beth Togarmah from the far north with all its troops—the many nations with you. This of course being the battle (if you could call it that) described in Ezekiel 38 & 39. There is nothing in the scripture that state that they are Muslims, as PW continues to claim.

show you the figurative language at work in Revelation and many read it with eyes glossed over. Why? Because the things that I have found don't agree with the nonsense taught in all the different seminaries in the USA. Think of this, were the religious leaders in Christ's day correct about anything??? What makes our leaders any better? Experience? I think not.

It is because PW's interpretation of those symbolism's in Revelation are incorrect.

I never said pre-tribbers will take the mark. Most of you have no idea what that even means. Most think computer chip. Utter nonsense.

Utter nonsense he says! Yet, we have exactly that taking place in the world. We have an electronic credit and debiting system in place, which is accessed via card swiping and phone bank apps, etc. The mark, which will be some type of device under the skin of the hand or forehead will replace the cards and phone bank apps. I would say that the fact that we already have people being implanted with RFID chips under the skin of the hand would demonstrate the scripture to be in the literal sense.

This technology will continue to evolve leading up to the revealing of that antichrist. Around the middle of the seven years, all other methods of buying and selling will be made obsolete leaving only the receiving of that mark to be able to electronically credit and debit ones bank account, ergo, "He forces all both great and small, rich and poor, free and slave to receive a mark."

Russia will lead an attack with Islamic forces to the north of Israel against Israel. This is the Great Tribulation. Guess what? You will still be here to see it happen then wonder where your rapture is.

Guess what? No we won't, because that will take place during the time when God's wrath is being poured out upon the earth, which true believers are not appointed to suffer. So instead, you will be saying, "why didn't I believe in the Lord's promise that we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath" and that because Jesus rescues us from it (1 Thes.1:10, 5:9)

 

[Quasar92]

Dude

The rich man and Lazarus totally debunks that.

Jesus parable of Lazarus and the rich man confirms whar I wrote, dude!

For your edification, I suggest you read Ecc.12:7; Lk.16:19-25; 1 Pet.3:18-20 and 2 Cor.5:-8 to learn what part of us is raised and what part remains in the grave and returns to dust. Exceptions are those recorded in the NT, such as Lazarus, who were all raised in their original human physical bodies. Jesus is a very special case, as He was resurrected in His original physical body for very good reasons, to prove He was indeed raised from the dead. Remember, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, as recorded in 1 Cor.15:50. See also Rev.6:9-13 and 7:9-17.

However, somewhere during the 40 days He remained on earth until ascending into heaven, His body changed to the glorified, immortal eternal body He has now. As seen when He appeared in the closed and locked doors of the disciples. With the power to appear physically, or not at all, as the case was when He accosted Saul and his entourage, on the road to Damascus. No one saw Him, in Acts 9, but heard Him. Such cases of His materializing as well as some of the angels in the OT are recorded in Gen.18, 19 and 32; Jos.5:13-15; Dan.3:24-25 and in 12:7 as welll as in other places.

When Jesus returns from heaven. to the earth in His second coming, with His Church, everyone who ever believed in Him, will all have materialized physical, immortal bodies. At the first resurrection in Rev.20:4, of the tribulation martyrs/saints, they will all be resurrected in their glorified immortal bodies and reign with Christ for 1,000 years on earth.


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

In what translation was the 70th week of Daniel invoked relative to 2 Thes 2:3? Let me guess, it was in the notes of the Scofield reference Bible? I hate to break it to you but "NOTES" are not part of the text. I don't recall any Biblical teaching where Cyrus I. Scofield was given divine inspiration to add anything to God's Word!! In fact, he may have a little answering to do for all the problems he caused with his dispensation theory that he borrowed from Darby.

Aside from that. The below is from my Interlinear Bible showing the original Greek text along with the KJV translation. You will NOT see any reference to Daniel's 70th week. This version is older than Scofield and more accurate by a mile.

View attachment 160128

So please answer my question, how does the 70th week of Daniel have anything to do with the Great Tribulation since it says clearly that those 70 weeks were for Daniel's People and their Holy City (Jerusalem)? Whose got the bullet hole in the foot now?

Sorry brother, I shouldn't pick on you. I realize Scofield was the man in his day and this is what everyone was taught back then. Most churches don't even teach the rapture anymore. So many older Christians are obsessed by it thinking it could happen any day like the clouds would open and Jesus would come to take us all home. This is what my mom and dad think.

Its sad that so many don't realize that the real rapture happens on the last day of this earth age just after the resurrection. But I don't see any harm in you believing as you do brother. So, God bless you.

FYI, you don't have a clue as to what you are talking about! 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8 take place BEFORE, the seven year tribulation begins, recorded in Dan.9:27! Amplified by Jesus in Mt.24, Mk,13 and Lk.21! You are going to pay a stiff penalty for the charade you make out of the prophetic Scriptures when you stand before the Lord to account for it!

The 70 week prophecy is the disposition of Israel, from the time the decree was given to rebuild Jerusalem, until the second coming of Christ. With the decree by God, they are to go through the seven year tribulation for their disobedience of disregard for the Law pertaining to the seventh year Sabbath of planting and harvesting crops they were to abstain from, but didn't.


Quasar92

 

[popeye]

Jesus parable of Lazarus and the rich man confirms whar I wrote, dude!

For your edification, I suggest you read Ecc.12:7; Lk.16:19-25; 1 Pet.3:18-20 and 2 Cor.5:-8 to learn what part of us is raised and what part remains in the grave and returns to dust. Exceptions are those recorded in the NT, such as Lazarus, who were all raised in their original human physical bodies. Jesus is a very special case, as He was resurrected in His original physical body for very good reasons, to prove He was indeed raised from the dead. Remember, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, as recorded in 1 Cor.15:50. See also Rev.6:9-13 and 7:9-17.

However, somewhere during the 40 days He remained on earth until ascending into heaven, His body changed to the glorified, immortal eternal body He has now. As seen when He appeared in the closed and locked doors of the disciples. With the power to appear physically, or not at all, as the case was when He accosted Saul and his entourage, on the road to Damascus. No one saw Him, in Acts 9, but heard Him. Such cases of His materializing as well as some of the angels in the OT are recorded in Gen.18, 19 and 32; Jos.5:13-15; Dan.3:24-25 and in 12:7 as welll as in other places.

When Jesus returns from heaven. to the earth in His second coming, with His Church, everyone who ever believed in Him, will all have materialized physical, immortal bodies. At the first resurrection in Rev.20:4, of the tribulation martyrs/saints, they will all be resurrected in their glorified immortal bodies and reign with Christ for 1,000 years on earth.


Quasar92

Resurrection in rev 20?

That make 3 resurrections

Oh wait 4 counting the 2 witnesses.

 

[popeye]

Jesus parable of Lazarus and the rich man confirms whar I wrote, dude!

For your edification, I suggest you read Ecc.12:7; Lk.16:19-25; 1 Pet.3:18-20 and 2 Cor.5:-8 to learn what part of us is raised and what part remains in the grave and returns to dust. Exceptions are those recorded in the NT, such as Lazarus, who were all raised in their original human physical bodies. Jesus is a very special case, as He was resurrected in His original physical body for very good reasons, to prove He was indeed raised from the dead. Remember, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, as recorded in 1 Cor.15:50. See also Rev.6:9-13 and 7:9-17.




Quasar92

I don't think you are very concerned about edification. You attack when challenged.

But this here pretty much ought to give a little something to chew on:
Mat 27;51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


What were they doing going against your deal?

They probably didn't know they were early,and needed to wait till rev 20.

Oh,wait,nobody is raised from the dead there either. They rise from the dead immediately after death right?

So rev 20 is more of a "sorta resurrection"?

 

[Quasar92]

Resurrection in rev 20?

That make 3 resurrections

Oh wait 4 counting the 2 witnesses.

There are only two general resurrection recorded in the Bible. Jesus dictated to John, Rev.20:4 is the FIRST one and the second one is at the end of Jesus 1,000 year reign on earth, at the GWTJ, recorded in Rev20:11-15. 1 Thess.4:16, is not a resurrection, as I have covered thoroughly, elsewhere on this thread. Paul wrote that the dead in Christ will rise first. They all did rise first, each in his own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23, as each of them died, beginning with the advent of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, in Acts 2:1-3 to this very day. "Absent from the body, present with the Lord," recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, immediately following the death of their physical bodies. When Jesus returns for the rest of us who belong to Him, left here on earth alive at His coming, all of the "sleepers," those who previously died in Him, will return WITH Jesus in 1 Thess.4:16, from heaven, in verse 14.


Quasar92

 

[popeye]

When Jesus returns from heaven. to the earth in His second coming, with His Church, everyone who ever believed in Him, will all have materialized physical, immortal bodies. At the first resurrection in Rev.20:4, of the tribulation martyrs/saints, they will all be resurrected in their glorified immortal bodies and reign with Christ for 1,000 years on earth. Quasar92

Not according to your deal.

Because you say they are already resurrected when the died.

Live entities need no resurrection.

You painted yourself into a corner.

 

[Quasar92]

I don't think you are very concerned about edification. You attack when challenged.

But this here pretty much ought to give a little something to chew on:
Mat 27;51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


What were they doing going against your deal?

They probably didn't know they were early,and needed to wait till rev 20.

Oh,wait,nobody is raised from the dead there either. They rise from the dead immediately after death right?

So rev 20 is more of a "sorta resurrection"?

That is not a GENERL resurrection, in the first place, But rather one of the "signs" God gave Israel to signify something special, In addition, reference to those saints who came out of their graves, went into the city where they were seen by many. There is no doubt in the world that they died again, later. They obviously did not go to heaven.


Quasar92

 

[popeye]

There are only two general resurrection recorded in the Bible. Jesus dictated to John, Rev.20:4 is the FIRST one and the second one is at the end of Jesus 1,000 year reign on earth, at the GWTJ, recorded in Rev20:11-15. 1 Thess.4:16, is not a resurrection, as I have covered thoroughly, elsewhere on this thread. Paul wrote that the dead in Christ will rise first. They all did rise first, each in his own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23, as each of them died, beginning with the advent of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, in Acts 2:1-3 to this very day. "Absent from the body, present with the Lord," recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, immediately following the death of their physical bodies. When Jesus returns for the rest of us who belong to Him, left here on earth alive at His coming, all of the "sleepers," those who previously died in Him, will return WITH Jesus in 1 Thess.4:16, from heaven, in verse 14.


Quasar92

Then 1 thes 4 is a misprint or flat out error.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So,who is right? You or the bible?

 

[Quasar92]

Not according to your deal.

Because you say they are already resurrected when the died.

Live entities need no resurrection.

You painted yourself into a corner.

I say no such thing, bluto! Wgen believers die, ever since Jesus died and rose again, our spirit/souls all go to be with Jesus in heaven, when our physical body dies. Confirming Ecc.12:7 and 2 Cor.5:6-8!


Quasar92

 

[popeye]

That is not a GENERL resurrection, in the first place, But rather one of the "signs" God gave Israel to signify something special, In addition, reference to those saints who came out of their graves, went into the city where they were seen by many. There is no doubt in the world that they died again, later. They obviously did not go to heaven.



Quasar92

No,he preached the gospel to the patriarchs in paradise. The patriarchs rose from the dead and went with Jesus to heaven.

Eph 4;8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

The patriarchs are already in heaven.They were raised from the dead with Jesus.

This is where an understanding of the 4 part harvest comes in.

Jesus the first fruits along with the patriarchs

Then the main harvest.

BTW,what are the dead in christ raised for if they were raised at death?

 

[Quasar92]

Then 1 thes 4 is a misprint or flat out error.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So,who is right? You or the bible?

You have a problem of not reading, popeye! Your claims have been thoroughly addressed on this thread previously and I have no intention of repeating it again.

Good night!


Quasar92