*** A VERY SHORT POST TRIB RAPTURE THREAD***

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popeye

Guest
Still waiting for any pre-tribber to answer this.

“Seventy weeks are determined
for your people and for your holy city..."

If the 70th week is the Great Tribulation and the Great Tribulation is global in its scale, why does the angel, Gabriel tell Daniel that the 70 weeks are for his people and Jerusalem?

Common, one of you pre-tribbers must have a theory on this. Love to hear it!!!
You do know we agree on some things.

I won't follow you into those grand canyon leaps you do.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
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:D
You do know we agree on some things.

I won't follow you into those grand canyon leaps you do.
It was a pretty straight forward question. Sure seems like you are running from it. If you can't explain it, just admit that maybe you were wrong about this piece. Common buddy, you can own up to it. Just tell me you don't know. :D:D

Gabriel tells Daniel that 70 weeks were determined for his people (Israel) and their holy city (Jerusalem). So, how can the 70th week be the Great Tribulation of the whole planet?

Are 70 weeks determined for the whole planet or just for Israel?
 
Nov 12, 2015
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Pw, you can't have it both ways. When it says "your people" you want to say it only deals with Israel and does not affect the rest of the world. When it says "all the people on earth" or "everyone" or "the whole world" you want to say that's only the middle east because the rest of the world wasn't populated then.

You are willing to take the one quite literally but not willing to take the other quite literally. In this way, you make all of scripture to fit with your interpretation.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,162
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Pw, you can't have it both ways. When it says "your people" you want to say it only deals with Israel and does not affect the rest of the world. When it says "all the people on earth" or "everyone" or "the whole world" you want to say that's only the middle east because the rest of the world wasn't populated then.

You are willing to take the one quite literally but not willing to take the other quite literally. In this way, you make all of scripture to fit with your interpretation.
Hello Stunnedbygrace,

As further proof that the entire world will be involved, the smashing of that last ten-toed kingdom made of partly iron and partly baked clay will be smashed to pieces and the rest of the statue with it, which represents the end of all human government. The Rock that smashes that ten-toed kingdom is Jesus and He will accomplish this smashing via the seals, trumpet and bowl judgments. For He is the One opening the seals, which leads into the trumpets and bowl judgments by which He will trample the winepress of the wrath of God Almighty.

===============================================

Your Majesty looked, and there before you stood a large statue—an enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance. The head of the statue was made of pure gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay. While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were all broken to pieces and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.

After you, another kingdom will arise, inferior to yours. Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth. Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron—for iron breaks and smashes everything—and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others. Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay. As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.

“In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever. This is the meaning of the vision of the rock cut out of a mountain, but not by human hands—a rock that broke the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold to pieces. - Dan.2:31-45
 
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JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
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I just have to say . . .

Every time I see the title of this thread in the lineup and then see at this point, 61 pages, over 1200 posts . . .

. . . it just cracks me up!


That there can be so much discussion about a topic about which there are so many opinions and none have it all figured out is actually kind of humorous!

I choose to trust that God has it figured out, will carry out His plan to perfection, and afterward we'll all say, "Oh THAT'S what those passages meant!"

Chances are, we'll ALL be surprised how the Final Things play out!

12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love. (from 1 Cor. 13)


And that's all I have to say about that.


Grace and peace,
-JGIG, who is unsubbing from this thread but will continue to chuckle every time I see "A VERY SHORT POST TRIB RAPTURE THREAD" in the post lineup
 

Markum1972

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2013
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The Rapture and when Christ returns are two different separate events.

The Rapture is when Jesus removes His Children from this World just before the Anti-Christ steps on the stage. When Jesus returns is when He will rule the World for 1000 years.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
[SUP]13 [/SUP]But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

The Rapture is only for True Christians. When Jesus returns to rule involves both Christians and non believers.
Of course the dead rise first. How many people have ALREADY died? Those that are taken first are those that have died... aka sleep in Jesus. Remember when Jesus told the people that the little girl was not dead but only sleeping? Those who have died in Christ are not dead, but sleeping. Have you understood this or did you think Jesus was not truthful when he said that?

According to that scripture, there is no "rapture" for the living... only the dead (those that sleep in Jesus). This is why the living are told in those verses not to grieve for them. Why else would those that are are alive and remain have any sorrow for them? If they were suddenly whisked away while alive, there would be no reason to grieve for them.

However, scripture tells us time and time again that many will be killed for the sake of Christ. These are your dead that sleep in Jesus. These are those that are given the white robes. There is no mention of any reward for otherwise raptured people.

The rapture is a doctrine created for those that do not love the truth. It is a strong delusion... a lie. 2 Thessalonians 2:10 tells you that if you refuse to love the truth, you will not be saved. That chapter is specifically about the timing of the coming of Jesus.

This is the truth and may the truth set you free.
 
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popeye

Guest
FF the vid to 9;18. The jewish lady gives a chilling revelation on what the Jews will follow as their messiah,who will come in the future.

The guy on the white horse,riding in front of the other 3 apocalyptic riders will fulfill the Jewish pattern for their supposed messiah

[video=youtube;ahlws06oUFU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahlws06oUFU[/video]
 
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popeye

Guest
Of course the dead rise first. How many people have ALREADY died? Those that are taken first are those that have died... aka sleep in Jesus. Remember when Jesus told the people that the little girl was not dead but only sleeping? Those who have died in Christ are not dead, but sleeping. Have you understood this or did you think Jesus was not truthful when he said that?

According to that scripture, there is no "rapture" for the living... only the dead (those that sleep in Jesus). This is why the living are told in those verses not to grieve for them. Why else would those that are are alive and remain have any sorrow for them? If they were suddenly whisked away while alive, there would be no reason to grieve for them.

However, scripture tells us time and time again that many will be killed for the sake of Christ. These are your dead that sleep in Jesus. These are those that are given the white robes. There is no mention of any reward for otherwise raptured people.


The rapture is a doctrine created for those that do not love the truth. It is a strong delusion... a lie. 2 Thessalonians 2:10 tells you that if you refuse to love the truth, you will not be saved. That chapter is specifically about the timing of the coming of Jesus.

This is the truth and may the truth set you free.
No,we just read the rapture verses and believed them. We also noticed there were others caught up alive.

It's as if you are saying Jesus lied .
 

Markum1972

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2013
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No,we just read the rapture verses and believed them. We also noticed there were others caught up alive.

It's as if you are saying Jesus lied .
Not at all. Bearing false witness will not cause it to be true. Where will Jesus be standing when he shouts "Come up here"? It is written in scripture. They are not "caught up". They are told "Come up here." Why would they be told to do that if they were going to be taken up? They have to actively go up on their own accord. So then, they are not "raptured".

The "rapture" doctrine claims that people will be whisked away before his return without dying. That is its claim. However, the only mention of those taken before his return are those that are clothed in white and were killed for their testimony.

I don't think there are any lies in scripture. Only those things that are not understood that have either been added or taken away from. There is no secret interpretation of scripture. It all means exactly what it says... nothing more, nothing less.
 
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popeye

Guest
Not at all. Bearing false witness will not cause it to be true. Where will Jesus be standing when he shouts "Come up here"? It is written in scripture. They are not "caught up". They are told "Come up here." Why would they be told to do that if they were going to be taken up? They have to actively go up on their own accord. So then, they are not "raptured".

The "rapture" doctrine claims that people will be whisked away before his return without dying. That is its claim. However, the only mention of those taken before his return are those that are clothed in white and were killed for their testimony.

I don't think there are any lies in scripture. Only those things that are not understood that have either been added or taken away from. There is no secret interpretation of scripture. It all means exactly what it says... nothing more, nothing less.
It says in 1 thes 4" alive shall be caught up with the dead to meet the lord in the sky".

Then here you come to muddy it up.

Both Enoch and Elijah were caught up.

Then in rev 14 there are 2 harvests,apparently Jews,and nothing of them being dead or risen,so that is most likely a rapture also.

All these things testify against your mental conjecture.

I will continue trusting scripture.

The pretrib rapture is solid doctrine.

Both Paul and John went to heaven and came back.

" come up here" was what John heard early in rev. And he did,in fact,go to heaven alive.

So that is what,6 or 7 against your zero?
 
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popeye

Guest
............double post...........
 
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Markum1972

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2013
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It isn't my opinion. My understanding of things was always a pretrib rapture. I took it for granted that things were as I was taught since a child.
It was not until I asked God to show me and to prevent me from falling away to the deception that my delusion was shattered. It was not easy for me either because I had been so sure that so many people could not be wrong.
It was not until later that I saw that the tares are taken first and the wheat gathered afterward.
The children of Israel were 100% convinced that it was God's will for them to die in the wilderness. This was the delusion they had as a result of pleasuring in unrighteousness and not loving the truth. There is nothing new under the sun.
Enoch and Elijah are the only two accounts of people that were taken from the earth without seeing death. Both of them were considered righteous men that walked with God. How many in the church today are considered the same or even know what that is like?
I don't claim that a rapture event will not take place just as much as I would not claim that the Israelites did not die in the wilderness. It was done to them as they spoke.
So a question I would have everyone ask themselves is this. If you had a choice to die and not have to endure a great tribulation by faith in Christ Jesus or to remain alive and endure, which would you choose? I have asked this question and have had many honest answers where people have said they would rather just go on to be with the Lord. This used to trouble me, but now I am comforted knowing that God is able to bring with him even those that have died in Christ Jesus.
I will not debate, but instead seek the Lord for the answers as he is able to give to any that lack wisdom if they ask of him.
What I would ask of anyone, whether they have gained anything from this conversation or not, is to ask God and trust that he is more than able to answer them. Do not doubt.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,162
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Greetings Markum1972,

If you had a choice to die and not have to endure a great tribulation by faith in Christ Jesus or to remain alive and endure, which would you choose? I have asked this question and have had many honest answers where people have said they would rather just go on to be with the Lord. This used to trouble me, but now I am comforted knowing that God is able to bring with him even those that have died in Christ Jesus.
Well said! I believe that your reference to being "comforted" is exactly what Paul meant in 1 Thes.4:18, when after giving a detailed account of the gathering of the church, dead and living, he then said, "therefore, comfort one another with these words." Consequently, there would be no comfort if the gathering of the church were to take place after the wrath of God was completed. Nor would it be a blessed hope.
 
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popeye

Guest
It isn't my opinion. My understanding of things was always a pretrib rapture. I took it for granted that things were as I was taught since a child.
It was not until I asked God to show me and to prevent me from falling away to the deception that my delusion was shattered. It was not easy for me either because I had been so sure that so many people could not be wrong.
It was not until later that I saw that the tares are taken first and the wheat gathered afterward.
The children of Israel were 100% convinced that it was God's will for them to die in the wilderness. This was the delusion they had as a result of pleasuring in unrighteousness and not loving the truth. There is nothing new under the sun.
Enoch and Elijah are the only two accounts of people that were taken from the earth without seeing death. Both of them were considered righteous men that walked with God. How many in the church today are considered the same or even know what that is like?
I don't claim that a rapture event will not take place just as much as I would not claim that the Israelites did not die in the wilderness. It was done to them as they spoke.
So a question I would have everyone ask themselves is this. If you had a choice to die and not have to endure a great tribulation by faith in Christ Jesus or to remain alive and endure, which would you choose? I have asked this question and have had many honest answers where people have said they would rather just go on to be with the Lord. This used to trouble me, but now I am comforted knowing that God is able to bring with him even those that have died in Christ Jesus.
I will not debate, but instead seek the Lord for the answers as he is able to give to any that lack wisdom if they ask of him.
What I would ask of anyone, whether they have gained anything from this conversation or not, is to ask God and trust that he is more than able to answer them. Do not doubt.
1) that means he is talking to you and not me,and that His bible is in conflict with what YOU SAY/THINK he supposedly told you.

2) Did he apologise for his misprints,or just tell you "oh,BTW,there are no verses for what you now need to believe,but that is beside the point"

Please show me how Jesus himself uses lot and Noah,BOTH PRE JUDGEMENT dynamics describing his coming,but you somehow use some conjecture to say God changed his mind.(pssst,you need a post judgement dynamic)

Also tell me how the greatest event about to hit heaven (the gathering of the bride) that is all over the NT,somehow slipped God's mind when he Informed you the bride is waiting for nothing (except for a thorough thrashing and scattering in some cave dodging fireballs from heaven).?

This entity talking to you seems disconnected from purpose and information in the bible.

3) the AC kills every man,woman,and child on the face of the earth refusing the mark. But you somehow think God miscalculated,and guessed some stragglers hiding in caves (what you guys call overcomers) is the main harvest of believers?
It even says THE AC RECEIVES POWER TO OVERCOME THE SAINTS.

4) in 30 + years of study,I have yet to see you guys come up with a case for your supposition/theory?

Or for that matter a verse. 1 verse? really? God can't find one?
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,162
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1) that means he is talking to you and not me,and that His bible is in conflict with what YOU SAY/THINK he supposedly told you.

2) Did he apologise for his misprints,or just tell you "oh,BTW,there are no verses for what you now need to believe,but that is beside the point"

Please show me how Jesus himself uses lot and Noah,BOTH PRE JUDGEMENT dynamics describing his coming,but you somehow use some conjecture to say God changed his mind.(pssst,you need a post judgement dynamic)

Also tell me how the greatest event about to hit heaven (the gathering of the bride) that is all over the NT,somehow slipped God's mind when he Informed you the bride is waiting for nothing (except for a thorough thrashing and scattering in some cave dodging fireballs from heaven).?

This entity talking to you seems disconnected from purpose and information in the bible.

3) the AC kills every man,woman,and child on the face of the earth refusing the mark. But you somehow think God miscalculated,and guessed some stragglers hiding in caves (what you guys call overcomers) is the main harvest of believers?
It even says THE AC RECEIVES POWER TO OVERCOME THE SAINTS.

4) in 30 + years of study,I have yet to see you guys come up with a case for your supposition/theory?

Or for that matter a verse. 1 verse? really? God can't find one?
Popeye,

The AC is not going to kill every single person on earth! God doesn't allow that! Since the saints are present during the great tribulation and will be the only Gentiles left on the earth, then you would be saying that there will no Gentiles alive to go into the millennial period, which would leave only Israel. Regarding this, we have ample scripture that demonstrate that there will be Gentiles (nations) on the earth during the millennial period who along with Israel, will repopulate the earth.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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Pw, you can't have it both ways. When it says "your people" you want to say it only deals with Israel and does not affect the rest of the world. When it says "all the people on earth" or "everyone" or "the whole world" you want to say that's only the middle east because the rest of the world wasn't populated then.

You are willing to take the one quite literally but not willing to take the other quite literally. In this way, you make all of scripture to fit with your interpretation.
You are comparing apples and oranges.

The Great Tribulation (as spoken of by Jesus in Mat 24) applies only to Israel. We know this because only "those in Judea" are to flee.

You then mention, I assume, Rev 13??

And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. [SUP]8 [/SUP]All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

This is NOT the entire planet and this is NOT the Great Tribulation. Notice it is only those whose names have not been written in the Book of Life who will worship the Beast?? Christian nations do not follow Islam. You are getting hung up on the phrase every tribe, tongue, and nation, right?

Now John is seeing into his future. So we are looking first for events after 96 AD that may have happened. We are given several clues:

1) a beast rising up out of the sea - These are Muslims!! It's a dead give away clue concerning what people, tribe, tongue and nations are involved here.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Then the Angel of the Lord said to Hagar, “I will multiply your descendants exceedingly, so that they shall not be counted for multitude. Later the Lord told Abraham: [SUP]20 [/SUP]And as for Ishmael, I have heard you. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall beget twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation.

Now look at those 12 sons (Princes) of Ishmael and see where they ruled. This is the same area where the Beast of Rev 13 is said to be. There are multiple nations here: Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Israel and Egypt.



Look now at what happened at Babylon under King Nebuchadnezzar:

“To you it is commanded, O peoples, nations, and languages.... [SUP]6 [/SUP]and whoever does not fall down and worship shall be cast immediately into the midst of a burning fiery furnace.”

Did King Neb control the entire planet? He didn't right? I don't hear you assigning the entire planet to him.



When Alexander conquered the Medes and Persians, Daniel describes it this way and Gabriel explains it:

[SUP]5 [/SUP]And as I was considering, suddenly a male goat came from the west, across the surface of the whole earth... [SUP]20 [/SUP]The ram which you saw, having the two horns—they are the kings of Media and Persia. [SUP]21 [/SUP]And the male goat is the kingdom of Greece.



Did Gabriel and Daniel lie? Was it really the whole planet? John never heard of America.

We know John takes much of his figurative language from Daniel. So when John says this some 400 years later, why is it not the entire planet earth?

And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

One thing to know, Rev 13 isn't discussing the Great Tribulation of Israel, it is discussing what happens in these Muslim territories. Rev 13 is all about Islam and how they conquer their countrymen and convert them and what happens to those who won't. The Christians and Jews that are there are in trouble but so is every ethnic countryman who won't "get on board."

If you read Dan 11:31-45 you see Muslims fighting Muslims, back and forth they go. North against South. The King of the North takes a little detour into Israel. The little detour, That is the Great Tribulation!!







 
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PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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SbG,

You are willing to take the one quite literally but not willing to take the other quite literally. In this way, you make all of scripture to fit with your interpretation.
Actually, here's an example of someone doing that.

As further proof that the entire world will be involved, the smashing of that last ten-toed kingdom made of partly iron and partly baked clay will be smashed to pieces and the rest of the statue with it, which represents the end of all human government. The Rock that smashes that ten-toed kingdom is Jesus and He will accomplish this smashing via the seals, trumpet and bowl judgments. For He is the One opening the seals, which leads into the trumpets and bowl judgments by which He will trample the winepress of the wrath of God Almighty.
This statement above assumes 90% of what it claims. But you agree with AHWA because you both see eye to eye on the Rapture.

Christ opens the seals. When He opens each, John sees things happening on earth. Nothing says that Christ is pouring out judgment. Rather, the imagery is that of a REVEALING not a causing of the action.

Nothing says that the 10 toes represent all of human government. AHWA assumes it. The rest of the statue represent specific empires, thus we should remain consistent. The mingling of iron and clay is showing that Islam does not mix with the rest of us. Horns are not toes!!

Christ does destroy the statue of the various evil beasts but these beasts do not represent all of Human Government. Babylon, to Persia, to Greece to Rome to the Ottomans - none controlled the whole planet and none controlled all governments.

AHWA makes enormous claims that all 7 seals, trumpets and bowls are all part of the Great Tribulation. He also states that the Great Tribulation is the wrath of God. No scripture teaches this. In fact the 5th trumpet is clearly from Satan and he's tormenting his own people just as he has been doing for centuries.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,162
2,380
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And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. [SUP]8 [/SUP]All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

This is NOT the entire planet and this is NOT the Great Tribulation. Notice it is only those whose names have not been written in the Book of Life who will worship the Beast?? Christian nations do not follow Islam. You are getting hung up on the phrase
every tribe, tongue, and nation, right?


I believe that it is you who are getting hung up. You're not understanding what is being said! The reference to "And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation" all who dwell on the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life, would be everyone else who is not apart of the great tribulation saints or belonging to Israel. There are only going to be two sets of people on the earth during those days, one will be those who have the testimony of Jesus and the word of God and who will not worship the beast, his image nor receive his mark and the other will be those who will be worshiping the beast, his image and will have received his mark.

Why do you continue to misapply scripture making this about Islam?


You can't make every tribe, tongue and nation, refer to only Israel.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,162
2,380
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Christ opens the seals. When He opens each, John sees things happening on earth. Nothing says that Christ is pouring out judgment. Rather, the imagery is that of a REVEALING not a causing of the action.


You are incorrect! The fact that Jesus is the One who is worthy to take the scroll and open it, demonstrates that he is the One initiating those judgments and is therefore responsible for the results of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which is the wrath of God that has been prophesied about by the OT saints and the apostles. What you said above is just a way of distorting that fact.


Nothing says that the 10 toes represent all of human government. AHWA assumes it. The rest of the statue represent specific empires, thus we should remain consistent. The mingling of iron and clay is showing that Islam does not mix with the rest of us. Horns are not toes!!


You are wrong again! The ten-toed kingdom is synonymous with the ten horns of the beast, which are those ten kings who become kings along with the beast and are the ones who give their power and authority to him (Rev.17:12) And again, you continue to point to Islam as being that baked clay, when the scripture states that the partly baked clay is a mixture of "people" and will not have the strength that it did when it was pure iron.

"It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever."

First of all, I don't assume anything, so please stop inferring that I do. Everything is according to scripture, which you continue to misapply.

The statue is representing all human government, including that last ten-toed kingdom with Jesus' falling on the feet of that ten-toed kingdom, which is the last kingdom. The reference to the Rock falling on the feet of the statue and smashing it to pieces, represents Christ bringing an end to all human government, which is what is meant by "The wind swept them away without leaving a trace." Then that Rock which falls on the feet of the statue fills the entire earth, which is referring to Christ's millennial kingdom.

AHWA makes enormous claims that all 7 seals, trumpets and bowls are all part of the Great Tribulation. He also states that the Great Tribulation is the wrath of God. No scripture teaches this. In fact the 5th trumpet is clearly from Satan and he's tormenting his own people just as he has been doing for centuries.
You have no idea what you are talking about and you should not be teaching the book of Revelation or about end time events. You don't understand that the majority of the book of Revelation is given to the wrath of God, which is a detailed account of the day of the Lord. This is what Jesus was talking about regarding the "what must take place later." Also, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments take place during the entire seven years and not just during the last 3 1/2 years which is the great tribulation period. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, are God's judgments, not Satan's or man's. These are what God is going to use to carry out His wrath.