Wars Fighting & Weapons

[lastofall]

"From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts." (James 4:1-3)

"Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it?" (Luke 6:9) [Note: Though Christ is referring to the Sabbath days, yet we know very well this applies to any day]

"And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem. And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." (Luke 9:53-56)

"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight,.." (John 18:36)

"And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear. Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?" (Matthew 26:51-54)

 

[wwjd_kilden]

You're proof-texting. Stop it.

Why. Are only pro guns opinions allowed?

 

[Desdichado]

I mean I can do the same.

"Sell your cloak and buy a sword." (Arm up)

"Leave nothing left." (If your people have a foe with an existential beef against you, kill'em off)

 

[Desdichado]

Why. Are only pro guns opinions allowed?

That's not at all what I'm saying.

 

[Utah]

Both these scriptures would appear to be telling us to leave it to God to judge our enemies - wouldn't you say Utah?

I don't see it that way, my sister. We have the right to self preservation, but make no mistake, a nation seeking war without God's guidance is a doomed nation.

 

[Utah]

What if I'd had a gun when I was bullied every day from 1st to 10th grade and no- one did anything to stop it?

If you had a gun you would not have been bullied.

 

[Utah]

Why must this turn into another European v. American gun control thread with nothing but idiotic gainsaying?

I love the spirit of MadParrotWoman's OP- let's look at the meaning of the scriptures first. I say this as an avid supporter of the 2nd Amendment.

I say this realizing I'll be ignored. That's happening a lot lately.

I'm sorry, did you say something?

 

[Utah]

Ok. The bible

- Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. (Don't shoot them)
- If someone hits you on one cheek, turn the other (Don't bash in their brains)

Regarding individuals, love can indeed triumph and rule the day, otherwise Jesus would not teach us to love our enemies. However when nations are involved, peace through superior fire power is often necessary.

Remember, when Jesus returns as the Lion, though He loves His enemies, He will deal with them accordingly, and it won't be pretty. Not in the least.

 

[jennymae]

Regarding individuals, love can indeed triumph and rule the day, otherwise Jesus would not teach us to love our enemies. However when nations are involved, peace through superior fire power is often necessary.

Remember, when Jesus returns as the Lion, though He loves His enemies, He will deal with them accordingly, and it won't be pretty. Not in the least.

Yes Si vis pacem, para bellum.

 

[wwjd_kilden]

If you had a gun you would not have been bullied.

There is bullying in the US as well, even with the easy access to guns.

 

[wwjd_kilden]

Regarding individuals, love can indeed triumph and rule the day, otherwise Jesus would not teach us to love our enemies. However when nations are involved, peace through superior fire power is often necessary.

Remember, when Jesus returns as the Lion, though He loves His enemies, He will deal with them accordingly, and it won't be pretty. Not in the least.

- Sadly yes, firepower trumps everything

- but we're not Jesus.

 

[eph610]

Eph 6.12 says:
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.


The unseen spiritual war between Heaven and the powers of darkness is real and being waged every day. What we see in the physical is certainly fueled by forces that we cannot see in the spiritual.


What Spirits do you think are behind radical Islam and the other factions across the world. What is behind all the shootings and spirit of murder here in the USA?

Christians love to have physical answers for Spiritual problems. There are more "Christians" that have more faith in Smith & Wesson and being a democrat or republican than the power of the Holy Spirit. At its root this folks are living in a spirit of fear, which is the primary agent against faith

 

[Depleted]

I wasn't quite sure where to post this but really I'm looking for the Biblical stance on this issue rather than people's opinions or at least if opinions are given I would ask for scripture to back this up please?

I've often wondered about what God thinks of war. I know that on both sides of the Atlantic most people hold their armed forces in high esteem - my own family has military background and before becoming a Christian this is where almost all of my charity contributions went - not so much now as there are other priorities as I see it...but anyway I digress; I do wonder if God approves of war, maybe He does in certain circumstances or maybe only in self-defense. I wouldn't imagine he would approve of starting wars yet in the OT He did overthrow communities He didn't approve of and gave His chosen the power to overcome them. We do seem to go into oil-rich land on a whim whilst ignoring poor places where genocide is rife.

Then there is the gun issue in the US...and I know I'm going into dangerous territory here lol but...as a Brit I do find it kind of strange how Christians love their guns. Now I know that some of you will immediately jump up and say "we need them for self-defense", well yes but it is more than that, it's a gun-loving culture - you guys don't just own guns you LOVE them, I have Christian (American) friends on facebook who collect guns and it's pretty much all they talk about. I know that many Americans see the British as oppressed because we don't have guns but when discussing this issue I can't seem to make them understand that we don't want to live like that - really we don't feel oppressed in that way. Anyway, I can't help wondering what God would make of it all.

Opinions backed-up with scripture where possible would be appreciated.

Excuse me for my laziness, but I'm not going to search scripture for examples. First, there are large swaths of scripture, so where do I start and where do I end? Second, to do justice to a great answer would mean spending months looking up the sources. And third, I've got lunch to make soon. lol

So, here's the thing, minus exact verses to back it up. God told Abraham that his heirs would inherit a land after the inhabitants had completed their sin. (Well, this one I'll do since it's only a verse -- Gen. 15:16.) God had plans to kill the Amorites. That's not self-defense. That's straight up offensive genocide. The Amorties weren't a little community. Their name now is "Babylonians."

This isn't God's distant plan. This is his complete plan. God will wipe out every human that does not belong to him. Those he hasn't chosen. He will have himself a nation of his people with no one else left, unless you want to count those who get eternity in Hell.

As for self-defense? If we want to take God at his word, we really shouldn't do self-defense. I know! Sounds nuts, right? I'm not sure I'm not, but from my understanding the two commandments are love God fully and then love others as ourselves -- even our enemies. Add to that 1 Cor. 13 tells what love is. Out those words down for our enemies, and wow. It's really not about self-defense.

[h=1]1 Corinthians 13English Standard Version (ESV)[/h][h=3]The Way of Love[/h][FONT=&quot]13 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith,so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned,[a] but have not love, I gain nothing.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4 Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;[b] 6 it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. 7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][h=4]Footnotes:[/h]

1. 1 Corinthians 13:3 Some manuscripts deliver up my body [to death] that I may boast
2. 1 Corinthians 13:5 Greek irritable and does not count up wrongdoing

[/FONT]
(From Bible Gateway)

Not to worry. I won't be giving some grand sermon on how to do that, but it is very much a part of what God wants from us. And I have no idea how to do it either.

I do think our histories has spots where we both screwed up. We should have made a better treaty at the end of WWI. We should have helped the Poles. We (Americans) should have helped the UK quicker. We do have a responsibility to help folks -- even as nations -- against tyranny. We're ignoring the Middle East and Africa now because somehow that's not our problem. We are being lousy Samaritans.

But as for Americans and our guns? Please don't see us all as gun-toting extremists. I don't have a gun, don't want one, and have no need for one. Most of the Americans I know are like me. The ones who have guns also have a purpose for them -- hunting. Growing up, about two-thirds of the meat I ate came from forest, fields, and water. The only Americans I've known who own guns for the possibility of shooting someone else are called "cops." The cops I've known have never shot their guns at people. (Gave me venison from their rifles, but never shot a gun. And they didn't even have to shoot for venison until after retiring, because someone is picking up that dead deer reported in a traffic accident, and it's usually a cop. lol)

The Christians on here who routinely say "You can have my gun when you pull it from my cold, dead hand" are just thinking they're impressing others. It doesn't impress me either. It's a bit of a political statement. Those who think they are conservative because they are Christians, but I often wonder if they really are Christians as much as an ethnical group called "christians."

Those who really think like that tend to be members of militias who don't want government to interfere with their lives. Sort of the polar opposite of BLM -- a very small group of Americans who are so loud, most folks think that's what we're all like. Nope. Not even. They just think the rest are like them because they're yelling so often they don't take the time to hear anyone else.

That I can't prove from the Bible. It's not biblical.

And, honestly? I don't think y'all are oppressed. You guys aren't much different than us, except your hunters don't ever go after bears, lions, and moose for obvious reasons. The same reason we don't hunt for bald eagles. The only reason those animals are still around is because they're being reintroduced. As for guns to shoot people go? Don't you still have people who grew up in the IRA so aren't exactly thrilled with giving up guns now? Our gun-lovers are sort of like that. It's a religion as well as an ethnical group, but it's still a lot smaller than they think.

Now, I know I scattered this around to several issues that seem unrelated, but, hey, your questions broad shot, (pun not intended, but I found it amusing anyway lol), so I tried to answer as many as my stomach has allowed. Now I have to eat, so I'm not even going to proof this.

 

[Depleted]

Found the list. You guys are first place, we are 11th. but.... You can't walk around Oslo with a handgun under your shirt (unless you really want to see the inside of a prison)

Same thing here in all our major cities. And?

 

[Depleted]

I don't see it that way, my sister. We have the right to self preservation, but make no mistake, a nation seeking war without God's guidance is a doomed nation.

Here's a question I've never understood. Biblically speaking, where does it say we have any rights at all? Rights too seem an American thing, and given the authors of the Declaration changed one of those rights to fit their needs, (pursuit of happiness was originally the right to own property, but since they already knew war meant the government needed the ability to take property from people, so they "fixed" that), they didn't really believe in rights that much either. I see no biblical evidence anyone has rights.

 

[MadParrotWoman]

Excuse me for my laziness, but I'm not going to search scripture for examples. First, there are large swaths of scripture, so where do I start and where do I end? Second, to do justice to a great answer would mean spending months looking up the sources. And third, I've got lunch to make soon. lol

So, here's the thing, minus exact verses to back it up. God told Abraham that his heirs would inherit a land after the inhabitants had completed their sin. (Well, this one I'll do since it's only a verse -- Gen. 15:16.) God had plans to kill the Amorites. That's not self-defense. That's straight up offensive genocide. The Amorties weren't a little community. Their name now is "Babylonians."

This isn't God's distant plan. This is his complete plan. God will wipe out every human that does not belong to him. Those he hasn't chosen. He will have himself a nation of his people with no one else left, unless you want to count those who get eternity in Hell.

As for self-defense? If we want to take God at his word, we really shouldn't do self-defense. I know! Sounds nuts, right? I'm not sure I'm not, but from my understanding the two commandments are love God fully and then love others as ourselves -- even our enemies. Add to that 1 Cor. 13 tells what love is. Out those words down for our enemies, and wow. It's really not about self-defense.

1 Corinthians 13English Standard Version (ESV)

The Way of Love

13 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith,so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned,[a] but have not love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;[b] 6 it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. 7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
Footnotes:

1. 1 Corinthians 13:3 Some manuscripts deliver up my body [to death] that I may boast
2. 1 Corinthians 13:5 Greek irritable and does not count up wrongdoing

(From Bible Gateway)

Not to worry. I won't be giving some grand sermon on how to do that, but it is very much a part of what God wants from us. And I have no idea how to do it either.

I do think our histories has spots where we both screwed up. We should have made a better treaty at the end of WWI. We should have helped the Poles. We (Americans) should have helped the UK quicker. We do have a responsibility to help folks -- even as nations -- against tyranny. We're ignoring the Middle East and Africa now because somehow that's not our problem. We are being lousy Samaritans.

But as for Americans and our guns? Please don't see us all as gun-toting extremists. I don't have a gun, don't want one, and have no need for one. Most of the Americans I know are like me. The ones who have guns also have a purpose for them -- hunting. Growing up, about two-thirds of the meat I ate came from forest, fields, and water. The only Americans I've known who own guns for the possibility of shooting someone else are called "cops." The cops I've known have never shot their guns at people. (Gave me venison from their rifles, but never shot a gun. And they didn't even have to shoot for venison until after retiring, because someone is picking up that dead deer reported in a traffic accident, and it's usually a cop. lol)

The Christians on here who routinely say "You can have my gun when you pull it from my cold, dead hand" are just thinking they're impressing others. It doesn't impress me either. It's a bit of a political statement. Those who think they are conservative because they are Christians, but I often wonder if they really are Christians as much as an ethnical group called "christians."

Those who really think like that tend to be members of militias who don't want government to interfere with their lives. Sort of the polar opposite of BLM -- a very small group of Americans who are so loud, most folks think that's what we're all like. Nope. Not even. They just think the rest are like them because they're yelling so often they don't take the time to hear anyone else.

That I can't prove from the Bible. It's not biblical.

And, honestly? I don't think y'all are oppressed. You guys aren't much different than us, except your hunters don't ever go after bears, lions, and moose for obvious reasons. The same reason we don't hunt for bald eagles. The only reason those animals are still around is because they're being reintroduced. As for guns to shoot people go? Don't you still have people who grew up in the IRA so aren't exactly thrilled with giving up guns now? Our gun-lovers are sort of like that. It's a religion as well as an ethnical group, but it's still a lot smaller than they think.

Now, I know I scattered this around to several issues that seem unrelated, but, hey, your questions broad shot, (pun not intended, but I found it amusing anyway lol), so I tried to answer as many as my stomach has allowed. Now I have to eat, so I'm not even going to proof this.

You have some great insights there Lynn. I hope you have gone to eat now lol

 

[Willie-T]

What if I'd had a gun when I was bullied every day from 1st to 10th grade and no- one did anything to stop it?

I have a beautiful 9mm pistol. And I used to carry it all the time. I still have it handy... very handy, but I no longer carry it when I am just going to the store or out to eat. God hit me kind of hard between the eyes that "self-defense" is not being armed and ready to shoot someone who happens to insult you or make you mad... or even rob you.

 

[Utah]

We have the right to self preservation because God gave us the gift of life. If someone wants to take our life we must ask ourselves, who do we adhere to, God the giver of life, or evil, the taker of life? I say God.

 

[Utah]

I have a beautiful 9mm pistol. And I used to carry it all the time. I still have it handy... very handy, but I no longer carry it when I am just going to the store or out to eat. God hit me kind of hard between the eyes that "self-defense" is not being armed and ready to shoot someone who happens to insult you or make you mad... or even rob you.

God bless you, brother. I'm with you all the way but for those last four words. People often establish a wonderful relationship with God when they're forced to eat humble pie. And a 9mm offers a good helping of that dish.

 

[Depleted]

We have the right to self preservation because God gave us the gift of life. If someone wants to take our life we must ask ourselves, who do we adhere to, God the giver of life, or evil, the taker of life? I say God.

No biblical evidence again, but, with this logic, one must assume you think God is evil, since not one of us gets out of this alive. God is the taker of life.