On Sin and Suffering

[HistoryPrincess]

No, I'm not going to give the end all answer to suffering. But what I am frustrated with is when people misinterpret the Bible to get to their conclusions about it. Particularly with the book of Job, probably the most misunderstood book in the whole Bible. I'm going to leave a link to an article at the end going into this.

People may say things like "Things happen for a reason" or "God is in control" or "God gives and takes away" etc. It also makes me mad when people ask questions like "Will you follow Jesus even if your life doesn't get any better?" (I like Relevant Magazine, but they once posted an insensitive article asking this question.)

Now, I'm not saying God is not ultimately in control. He's just not in control of every single thing that happens in this world. He gave man rulership over the earth at the beginning. And when man fell, we surrendered that right to Satan. Which brings us to another question. If God really is the source of all our problems, why then does he tell us to come to him for a solution?

And no, I don't think he magically solves all our problems either. But I really hate it when people say the ultimate goal of being a Christian is going to heaven when you die. As if this life, this one life you have on earth, wanting some sense of peace and joy that lasts, doesn't matter at all.

I've also noticed that people tend to think like this toward other people until they have something really bad happen to them.

 

[LaurenTM]

in principal, I agree

actually, God IS in control...of the universe

but we still make choices

those choices have consequences

for example, God does not cause a child to forget to look both ways before crossing a street, resulting in the child's death

no, God does not do that

choices, even at a young age

that's a very simplistic response to your op, but this thought of yours is on the right track IMO

 

[Magenta]

"Life is ninety percent attitude, and ten percent circumstance."

Put on the mind of Christ

 

[Angela53510]

First, what does the title have to do with the OP? I mean the sin part? No link posted.

Second, as someone who has suffered tremendously from serious illness, including pain and deformities, (to name only a few issues) one thing God has taught me, is that he is TOTALLY in control of everything. Let's start with a few Bible verses. I notice the OP included none. This is the BIBLE Discussion Forum, so some Bible verses might have made for a stronger OP.

"And we know all things work together for God to those who love God and are called according to his purpose." Romans 8:28

"More than that, we rejoice in our suffering, knowing that suffering produces endurance, endurance produces character and character produces hope. And hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured out through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us." Romans 5:3-5

I do agree with you, that following Jesus is about "living" and not "dying!" Because we are been taught and transformed as we live on this earth. And when Jesus returns, we will be living, in a better and fuller way- but it is still all about living and serving God.

"Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect." Romans 12:2

My suggestion is that you read the whole Bible, on your own, and pray the Holy Spirit would guide you. You will learn a lot more that way than through internet links.

 

[LaurenTM]

Now, I'm not saying God is not ultimately in control. He's just not in control of every single thing that happens in this world. He gave man rulership over the earth at the beginning. And when man fell, we surrendered that right to Satan. Which brings us to another question. If God really is the source of all our problems, why then does he tell us to come to him for a solution?

HistoryPrincess...don't be scolded by someone who disagrees with what you wrote

see, this is a discussion forum and sometimes folks want to shut the discussion down before it even begins

when asking questions such as yours, we cannot filter the answers through events in our own lives

we need to look further and actually, the web is a very handy place to start

here is a balanced and easy to understand article on just the very thing you picked for your op..it focuses on Job actually

We cannot blame God for what Satan does. Our vulnerability to satanic attack started with Adam’s choice to follow Satan’s lying suggestions in the garden of Eden. When Satan attacked Job through the loss of his family, wealth, and health, Job didn't blame God. Notice Job 1:21–22, "And he (Job) said: Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked shall I return there. The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord. In all this Job did not sin nor charge God with wrong."

As believers experience the attacks of Satan, they can trust the truth of Romans 8:28, "We know that all things work together for good to those who love God..." Therefore, the assumption is that we will experience "good" things and "bad" things, but "all" of these things can be made to contribute toward "good" ends as God works them out. So even the attacks of Satan, although evil, can and will have a "good" result, ultimately, as God uses them to conform us to Christ, His Son (see Romans 8:29). Attacks from Satan, along with all other tribulations, can cause believers to love God more, resist Satan more, practice patience, and grow stronger in our faith in many other ways. Praise God for His sovereign protection. Thank Him for His plan to make everything—even Satan’s attacks—"work together for good" for you!

SOURCE


what is God's purpose? seems there is one purpose for us all..notice it does not say purpose plural...but singular

God's purpose is single minded...redemption for his beloved creation through His Son and being conformed to the image of His Son

now I don't think it is wrong to view that verse in a personal way, but I don't believe that is the best interpretation or only way to understand it, even though traditionally any Christians apply it that way

 

[HistoryPrincess]

Alright. Sorry for not putting in the link. I was in a rush, but I will give the paraphrasing of it.

1. Job was superstitious

Like many religious people, Job believed in karma. He subscribed to the faithless wisdom of sowing and reaping. If his kids threw a wild party, Job would bring a sacrifice. “They might’ve sinned; I’d better do something about it.” Debits and credits. “This was Job’s regular custom” (Job 1:5).

2. Job was sin-conscious

Not his sins, of course, because he didn’t have any. (Cough!) He was a good man who kept the ledger clean. But Job viewed sin like kryptonite (see Job 31:11-12). He was terrified of it and thought about it constantly (see Job 31).

3. Job was full of fear

Job was insecure and bound with fear. He would’ve been the perfect customer for an insurance salesman because he feared calamities and disasters that would wipe him out (Job 31:23). When that happened he said, “What I feared has come upon me; what I dreaded has happened to me” (Job 3:25).

4. Job was full of self-pity

Read Job’s words and you get a strong sense of “Woe is me.” Although his woes were legitimate, he was utterly focused on his own sorry state. He was self-indulgent to the point of whining. “I will give free rein to my complaint” (Job 10:1). And complain he did.

5. Job allowed bitterness to take root

Bitterness is a grace-killer, but Job allowed that evil weed to flourish in the garden of his heart. “I will complain in the bitterness of my soul” (Job 7:11).

6. Job was self-righteous

Job’s confidence was not in the Lord but his own good behavior. “How many wrongs and sins have I committed? Show me my offense and my sin” (Job 13:23). Like an indignant Pharisee Job had an inflated sense of his moral performance. “Let God weigh me in honest scales and he will know that I am blameless” (Job 31:6). Job’s self-trust reinforced his victim mentality. “Can anyone bring charges against me?” (Job 13:19). Eventually his self-righteousness became so odorous that it even silenced the self-righteous men who came to counsel him. “These three men stopped answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes” (Job 32:1).

7. Job thought God didn’t care

“Even if I summoned him and he responded, I do not believe he would give me a hearing” (Job 9:16). Job’s self-pitying distorted his perception of God’s character. Like many people going through hard times, Job thought God was opposed to him (Job 13:24).

8. Job blamed God for his troubles

It is often taught that Job never blamed God (which is a misreading of Job 1:22; more on this later). However, Job did not hesitate to point the finger at “the Almighty, who has made my life bitter” (Job 27:2). A storm killed his kids and tribal raiders stole his herds, yet Job attributed his loss to a God who gives and takes away (Job 1:21). Again and again Job said God was the cause of his trouble (see Job 2:10, 6:4). Given his good behavior, Job couldn’t make sense of this divine unfairness. “Don’t you have better things to do than pick on me?” (Job 7:20, MSG). God moves in mysterious ways, thought Job. At any time he might “crush me with a storm and multiply my wounds for no reason” (Job 9:17).

9. Job thought God was trying to kill him

“Although I am blameless… He destroys both the blameless and the wicked” (Job 9:21-22). Job actually thought that God was trying to kill him. “You turn on me ruthlessly; with the might of your hand you attack me… I know you will bring me down to death” (Job 30:21,23).

10. Consequently, Job despaired of life and wished he was dead

Job loathed his life (see Job 7:16). “Who can see any hope for me?” (Job 17:15). This so-called hero of the faith had a death wish. “I prefer strangling and death, rather than this body of mine” (Job 7:15). Job had no faith in a God who heals and restores, but said, “the only home I hope for is the grave” (Job 17:13). Many people honor Job as a giant of the faith who was renowned for his great patience. However, Job is not listed in Hebrews 11 among the other heroes of the faith and the only righteousness he exhibited was the stinky, self-made kind.

 

[HistoryPrincess]

And by the way, God does not send trials. It's commonly believed that he does thanks to a misreading of James 1:2-3. But further reading to James 1:13-14 clearly says that's not the case.

Psalm 32: 9, “Do not be like the horse or like the mule, Which have no understanding, Which must be harnessed with bit and bridle, Else they will not come near you.” (New King James)

 

[HistoryPrincess]

The article itself is called "Ten Little Known Facts about Job."

 

[Talishi]

The article itself is called "Ten Little Known Facts about Job."

Speaking of Job, I recently blogged about him (shameless plug, but Silverwings liked it).

http://christianchat.com/blogs/talishi/10331-job-sings-blues.html

 

[HistoryPrincess]

Here are a few more lies we get from misreading Job 1.

Lie #1: Satan needs God’s permission to attack us.

Satan didn’t ask for permission to go after Job because he didn’t need permission. In the Garden of Eden we opened the door to sin and have been reaping the consequences ever since. The good news is it doesn’t have to be this way. By the grace of God the devil flees when we resist him (James 4:7). Don’t be like Job and let the thief plunder your house. Be like David who encouraged himself in the Lord and fought back (1 Sam 30:6).

Lie #2: God uses Satan as a sheepdog to keep the sheep in line.

What fellowship does light have with darkness (2 Cor 6:14)?

Lie #3: God gives us sickness and suffering to teach us character.

Satan’s aim was to trick God into harming Job, something that God would never do. Although Job thought God was responsible for his loss, God sent Elihu to set him straight. Elihu is a picture of Jesus who went around “healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him” (Acts 10:38). Jesus doesn’t give sickness; he takes it from us.

Lie #4: God “allows” sickness and suffering to afflict us.

God does not work for the devil. If God gave the thief permission to rob you, he wouldn’t be a thief. The first Adam lost control of the planet, but the last Adam took back what the devil stole. In Christ you are destined to reign like a king (Rom 5:17). But you won’t reign if you heed the lies above and follow Job instead of Jesus.

 

[wattie]

Remember Job was also very faithful to God before falling into blaming God. He was one of the most faithful men of God in the bible.

He did blame God eventually, but before that was very faithful.

How long would you last with that kind of suffering? I imagine you'd be getting angry at God a whole lot quicker than Job was.

But in regards to sin and suffering etc.. yes.. God hasn't removed our free will. Free will is also not just an illlusion. God wants us to choose Him against worldy ways.

There is though the point that ultimately God wins out in the end.. so He is in control. Evil will be defeated eventually. Gods' plan is set.

 

[HistoryPrincess]

That doesn't mean that he caused evil in the first place. Job actually did blame God when he said "the Lord gave and the Lord took away." Was it God who took everything from him? Or Satan?

 

[MikeHenderson]

This life on Earth is nothing but garbage compared to life in Heaven with Jesus.

How can you say life here is good and great when people suffer each and every day. I for one is in constant pain from dawn to dusk. It hurts to walk, it hurts to sit. So why would i ever want to be here if i had a choice?

 

[HistoryPrincess]

Then it's your choice. I for one have high-functioning autism. I've been "different" all my life. I really am sorry you seem to be in really bad pain. And I'm not going to minimize it one bit. But what if you had a different way of simply "thinking" than a mass majority of the population? What if you had to wonder whether or not it was even valid?

Life is a gift. And yes, people do suffer each and every day. But would you rather have the choice to live? Or would you rather have it taken from you like millions of babies who are aborted each year?

 

[MikeHenderson]

If you had the choice before you were born to live knowing you will have autism, would you chose to be born? Yes i agree life is a gift and even aborted babies should be given the chance to live.

I for one believe all babies aborted will enter into Heaven with Jesus.

 

[HistoryPrincess]

The fact is I didn't know. The fact is I'm grateful to be alive. If I'm sounding in any way rude, I don't mean to be. And yes, I believe the same.

 

[Yonah]

That doesn't mean that he caused evil in the first place. Job actually did blame God when he said "the Lord gave and the Lord took away." Was it God who took everything from him? Or Satan?

I think it best to allow scripture to answer this question: Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

We see 2 things : one God set the bounds that satan cannot cross, and 2 and God put Job under his power not job and not satan.

Job 2:6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

Again we see who really calls the shots so to speak, now the Father knew job as he knows all of us, better then we know our own heart... case in point is Peter say "I will never deny you" to our Savor, the father knew job and loved him, even said he was righteous...(what an endorsement!) but job lacked something in His walk with God, something that could never be revealed without pain and trouble... even severe trials, however as previously stated the Father knew Job and also knew his limitations, so the question is answered in short thusly: yes God took it all away, only to replace it with something far better and eternal in its nature.... same as He does for us.

 

[HistoryPrincess]

1) I'm sorry but if you read the original language, and keep in mind Job is the oldest book in the Bible, God is not giving Satan permission to attack Job. He's stating what's already a fact. If you read my OP, when Adam fell, he gave the right to rule the world to Satan. And the Bible calls Satan the prince of this world and a thief. What do thieves do? They take things without permission.

2) God did say Satan was not allowed to physically hurt Job, yet later Satan does it anyway. Again, he does what he wants instead of listening to God. And what God said in the original language when he called Job "righteous" was that he was telling Satan he knew what he was thinking, that he'd set his heart against Job, not "considered" him.

2 Timothy 3:16 also states that it is Scripture that teaches us about God and his ways, not our experiences.

 

[Yonah]

your number 2 response is in error the scripture disagrees, Job 2:5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.
Job 2:6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life. If we read these text, and even in the paleo hebrew it expresses Gods allowing satan to act against job , even satan stated that God had set a hedge about him.... now when the hedge of protection was lifted (to a degree) then and only then was satan allowed to act against a righteous man....

 

[HistoryPrincess]

God does not need a sheepdog.

And Jehovah said to Satan, Have you set your heart on My servant Job because there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil? (Job 1:8, LITV)

And Jehovah said to Satan, Behold, all that is his is in your hand! Only, do not lay your hand on him. And Satan went out from the face of Jehovah. (Job 1:12, LITV)

God is not giving Satan permission; he’s stating a fact. Job was already under Satan’s thumb. Why does God say that? Because of this:

We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one. (1 John 5:19)

Job had no hedge of protection to begin with. Satan was mocking God by saying he did.