Titus 3:5

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phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#1
What do you think this verse means ?....after the whistle...commentaries at the ready!

5he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, Titus 3:5 ( ESV)

Phil
 
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lighthousejohn

Guest
#2
What do you think this verse means ?....after the whistle...commentaries at the ready!

5he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, Titus 3:5 ( ESV)

Phil
Phil,

I am reluctant to respond to this until I styudy it a little bit more except for a few observations. Verse 5 is a phrase in the middle of a thought. To get Paul's complete thought, we must look at the whole thought which is includes verses 4-7: "4But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

This thought shows us a clasic description of God's grace. It is undeserved and richly given. It shows us that it was all God and none of us. It was His mercy, and lovingkindness that regenerated us. Nothing that we did or will do merits this regeneration. This regeneration justifies us and makes us joint heirs with Christ.

In Christ,
John
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
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#3
Phil,

I am reluctant to respond to this until I styudy it a little bit more except for a few observations. Verse 5 is a phrase in the middle of a thought. To get Paul's complete thought, we must look at the whole thought which is includes verses 4-7: "4But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

This thought shows us a clasic description of God's grace. It is undeserved and richly given. It shows us that it was all God and none of us. It was His mercy, and lovingkindness that regenerated us. Nothing that we did or will do merits this regeneration. This regeneration justifies us and makes us joint heirs with Christ.

In Christ,
John
Hi John,

I know the narrative in which this verse is set, yet this verse is the hinge to the narrative.. I wanted peoples views on this 'hinge'. ' and by what did Paul mean''washing of regeneration...through the Holy Spirit?

Phil
 
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lighthousejohn

Guest
#4
Hi John,

I know the narrative in which this verse is set, yet this verse is the hinge to the narrative.. I wanted peoples views on this 'hinge'. ' and by what did Paul mean''washing of regeneration...through the Holy Spirit?

Phil
Phil,
Sorry for pointing out he obvious ( I a a contextual purist, I guess. LOL). While I was researching this verse prior to writing my initial response, I was amazed at the diversity of views on the term "washing" . One commentator said it meant "loving".
Generally, the accepted definition had to do with being "bathed". I agree with this definition although I can see a broader use of loving as pertaining to God's lovingly regenerating us via the Holy Spirit. To be bathed in regeneration is to be fully and completely cleansed of all things sinful. This does not mean we are sin free but we are free from the desire to sin if we are submissive to this regeneration process. It is a process of time and not an "instantaneous perfection in total". (Not to be confused with justification.)

The renewal of the Holy Spirit refers in my opinion to this same process. We are renewed as we are regenerated.

In Christ,
John
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
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#5
Phil,
Sorry for pointing out he obvious ( I a a contextual purist, I guess. LOL). While I was researching this verse prior to writing my initial response, I was amazed at the diversity of views on the term "washing" . One commentator said it meant "loving".
Generally, the accepted definition had to do with being "bathed". I agree with this definition although I can see a broader use of loving as pertaining to God's lovingly regenerating us via the Holy Spirit. To be bathed in regeneration is to be fully and completely cleansed of all things sinful. This does not mean we are sin free but we are free from the desire to sin if we are submissive to this regeneration process. It is a process of time and not an "instantaneous perfection in total". (Not to be confused with justification.)

The renewal of the Holy Spirit refers in my opinion to this same process. We are renewed as we are regenerated.

In Christ,
John
hi john,

hope you don't mind but im gonna add that to my notes.. i keeps files on the computer with good explainations etc.

phil
 
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giantone

Guest
#6
The first thought I had was this verse:

Ephesians 5:24 *Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 *Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 *That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 *That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
 
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1still_waters

Guest
#7
Ttus 3:
3At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. 4But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. 8This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone.

I think he's using figurative language to portray a spiritual fact.

Washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit portrays the reality that we are washed by being born again.

John 3
3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.[a]"

4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You[c] must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
 
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Shwagga

Guest
#8
Amen, let us also remember that regeneration comes AFTER believing in the Lord.

As the staunch Calvinist Charles Spurgeon said..
"If I am to preach the faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate. Am I only to preach faith to those who have it? Absurd, indeed! Is not this waiting till the man is cured and then bringing him the medicine? This is preaching Christ to the righteous and not to sinners."
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#9
Amen, let us also remember that regeneration comes AFTER believing in the Lord.

As the staunch Calvinist Charles Spurgeon said..
"If I am to preach the faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate. Am I only to preach faith to those who have it? Absurd, indeed! Is not this waiting till the man is cured and then bringing him the medicine? This is preaching Christ to the righteous and not to sinners."

Hi shwagga, Ive seen that snippet from Spurgeon used time and time again, yet it is only a snippet and not the full article. you can if you wish read spurgeons volumes now online..and they are volumes! not just one wee snippet that seems on first glance to say something?

Anyhow here's something I posted last year on my own blog, this will inform you better what spurgeon believed.





Human Inability


Below is a snippet from one of Spurgeons Sermons, March 7, 1858.
In Spurgeon’s ususal lucid and straight to the point manner, he show’s how man will never with his own will come to Christ.
Some Scripture on man’s disposition before reading Spurgeon’s sermon excerpt:

  • Genesis 6:5
  • Job 15:14-15
  • Isaiah 64:7
  • John 3:19
  • 1 Corinthians 2:14
  • Romans 3:9-12; 6:6
  • Ephesians 2:1-3
  • 2 Timothy 2:26
I. First, it lies in the obstinacy of the human will. “Oh!” saith the Arminian, “men may be saved if they will.” We reply, “My dear sir, we all believe that; but it is just the if they will that is the difficulty. We assert that no man will come to Christ unless he be drawn; nay, we do not assert it, but Christ himself declares it—”Ye will not come unto me that ye might have life;’ and as long as that “ye will not come’ stands on record in Holy Scripture, we shall not be brought to believe in any doctrine of the freedom of the human will.” It is strange how people, when talking about free-will, talk of things which they do not at all understand. “Now,” says one, “I believe men can be saved if they will.” My dear sir, that is not the question at all. The question is, are men ever found naturally willing to submit to the humbling terms of the gospel of Christ?



We declare, upon Scriptural authority, that the human will is so desperately set on mischief, so depraved, and so inclined to everything that is evil, and so disinclined to everything that is good, that without the powerful. supernatural, irresistible influence of the Holy Spirit, no human will ever be constrained towards Christ. You reply, that men sometimes are willing, without the help of the Holy Spirit. I answer—Did you ever meet with any person who was? Scores and hundreds, nay, thousands of Christians have I conversed with, of different opinions, young and old, but it has never been my lot to meet with one who could affirm that he came to Christ of himself, without being drawn. The universal confession of all true believers is this—”I know that unless Jesus Christ had sought me when a stranger wandering from the fold of God, I would to this very hour have been wandering far from him, at a distance from him, and loving that distance well.”


With common consent, all believers affirm the truth, that men will not come to Christ till the Father who hath sent Christ doth draw them.


the whole sermon can be read at Human Inability


it is better to read the person yourself than a snippet of a talk someone else is trying to make it say something different.. infact every anti Calvinist site uses this one paragraph from Spurgeon.


Phil
 
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calvina

Guest
#10
What do you think this verse means ?....after the whistle...commentaries at the ready!

5he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, Titus 3:5 ( ESV)

Phil
before we were called as children of ALMIGHTY GOD,we are sinners but praise HIM for choosing us.GOD convicted us to repent and accept HIM as our LORD and SAVIOR then we were baptized in the name of the FATHER,the SON and HOLY SPIRIT.our sins was washed away,we become new creation.old self is buried,new self is alive in JESUS CHRIST name
 
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Shwagga

Guest
#11
Hi shwagga, Ive seen that snippet from Spurgeon used time and time again, yet it is only a snippet and not the full article. you can if you wish read spurgeons volumes now online..and they are volumes! not just one wee snippet that seems on first glance to say something?
Hi Phil,
I don't know if you are trying to say Spurgeon did not believe regeneration came first? I don't think you are because based on that quote Spurgeon did not believe regeneration came first, otherwise you are "preaching Christ to the righteous and not to sinners."

I don't know why you quoted the article if you agreed that Spurgeon believed regeneration comes after belief and repentance. But thank you anyway!
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#12
Spurgeon was involved in a controversy.. namely he in most of his life argued against antinomiaism, now when you understand this and then read the ''snippet you psoted then you will start to realise what Spurgeon is actually saying... regeneration and Faith are more or less instantaneous. However and in Spurgeons on words:

"in my first pastorate, I had often to battle with Antinomians,—that is, people who held that, because they believed themselves to be elect, they might live as they liked.

I hope that heresy has to a great extent died out, but it was sadly prevalent in my early ministerial days."


Now read again the 'snippet' that you provided and you will see what is going on. it is the same as James saying that Faith without works s a dead faith!

Most websites arguing against regeneration first, use this snippet (one paragraph) as evidence to help boster their argument, yet they show they actually have not understand the circumstances to what is being said and '''actuall what it means''''


Phil
 
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Shwagga

Guest
#13
Phil here is the quote again,

"If I am to preach the faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate. Am I only to preach faith to those who have it? Absurd, indeed! Is not this waiting till the man is cured and then bringing him the medicine? This is preaching Christ to the righteous and not to sinners."

We don't need to *interpret* peoples writings in the same way we interpret the bible Phil. This is very plain and clear for anyone to understand. Of course this is not all of Spurgeon's theology wrapped up in one quote but it most definitely sums up his belief on regeneration. It's his absolute statements that make it irrefutable to believe that he did not believe regeneration came first.

Are you trying to argue he did believe regeneration came first? If not I really think I missed your point on taking issue with the quote.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#14
Phil here is the quote again,

"If I am to preach the faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate. Am I only to preach faith to those who have it? Absurd, indeed! Is not this waiting till the man is cured and then bringing him the medicine? This is preaching Christ to the righteous and not to sinners."

We don't need to *interpret* peoples writings in the same way we interpret the bible Phil. This is very plain and clear for anyone to understand. Of course this is not all of Spurgeon's theology wrapped up in one quote but it most definitely sums up his belief on regeneration. It's his absolute statements that make it irrefutable to believe that he did not believe regeneration came first.

Are you trying to argue he did believe regeneration came first? If not I really think I missed your point on taking issue with the quote.
Well all you gave to look at what Spurgeon believed... as I said it is very easy to understand what he is saying here in context of what he is arguing against, which you are blindly ignoring along woth the other guys who post just this one little paragraph.

Now I couls take one paragraph from anyones sermon and make it sound like I want and this is what you and others have done!!!

In order for regeneration to come after Faith there needs to be an Arminian view on the will of man... Spurgeon certainly does not agree with that, anyhow maybe this will give you food for thought and maybe read Spurgeon for yopurself, instead of relying on one paragraph, out of context I might add (as I explained above).

I think it foolish to make the statement you have made, since you ignore what is actually being said, and you don't obviously know any of Spurgeons teaching.

As I have said before, numerous websites have used this '1' paragraph and made it sound like something it is not.. re read my abover shwagga, about the antinomian debate.. once you understand this debate then you maybe will start to understand what is beiong said.. especially if you will take the time to read the whole document that statement is from and I can conclude by saying that you have not been courtious in doing this as it would erode your argument.

So if you would like to send me a document by any preacher, I will take one paragraph and I will make it sound like something else.. don't forget the media do it daily and with ease and I am afraid you have been fooled with this also. we are very easily fooled.

but I can see this is being dragged into a debate about Spurgeon and not the topic on hand. You do know that Spurgeon was a Calvinist and held to refomred Theology within the Baptist movement and you do know that he held to TULIP... that in its own will inform you of how wrong your statements have been .

Anyhow, that is the last thing I will mention on Spurgeon especially as I can probably tell you have never read Spurgeon except for that one paragraph taken out of the context of which it was set.

So maybe this will maybe help people to actually start reading what people have written before trying to debate about them. a lesson for us all to be more informed before making blind statements.

Phil

 
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Shwagga

Guest
#15
Well all you gave to look at what Spurgeon believed... as I said it is very easy to understand what he is saying here in context of what he is arguing against, which you are blindly ignoring along woth the other guys who post just this one little paragraph.

Now I couls take one paragraph from anyones sermon and make it sound like I want and this is what you and others have done!!!

In order for regeneration to come after Faith there needs to be an Arminian view on the will of man... Spurgeon certainly does not agree with that, anyhow maybe this will give you food for thought and maybe read Spurgeon for yopurself, instead of relying on one paragraph, out of context I might add (as I explained above).

I think it foolish to make the statement you have made, since you ignore what is actually being said, and you don't obviously know any of Spurgeons teaching.

As I have said before, numerous websites have used this '1' paragraph and made it sound like something it is not.. re read my abover shwagga, about the antinomian debate.. once you understand this debate then you maybe will start to understand what is beiong said.. especially if you will take the time to read the whole document that statement is from and I can conclude by saying that you have not been courtious in doing this as it would erode your argument.

So if you would like to send me a document by any preacher, I will take one paragraph and I will make it sound like something else.. don't forget the media do it daily and with ease and I am afraid you have been fooled with this also. we are very easily fooled.

but I can see this is being dragged into a debate about Spurgeon and not the topic on hand. You do know that Spurgeon was a Calvinist and held to refomred Theology within the Baptist movement and you do know that he held to TULIP... that in its own will inform you of how wrong your statements have been .

Anyhow, that is the last thing I will mention on Spurgeon especially as I can probably tell you have never read Spurgeon except for that one paragraph taken out of the context of which it was set.

So maybe this will maybe help people to actually start reading what people have written before trying to debate about them. a lesson for us all to be more informed before making blind statements.

Phil

Phil, that is the beauty of absolute statements though. Spurgeon said very clearly its non-sense to believe you must be regenerated first. There is no denying this absolute statement which he made, no matter how many irrelevant parts of the sermon you want to quote.

For you to deny the fact Spurgeon beliefs on regeneration comes AFTER, is for you to make complete non-sense out of his OWN words. How you can ever twist someones words so drastically, I don't know.
 
Dec 19, 2009
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#16
Spurgeon, taken from a chapter in his book, 'All of Grace' on regeneration.

Then we may safely conclude that the Lord will give to those who believe all that is declared to be neccessary for salvation. The Lord does in fact, produce the new birth in all who believe in Jesus. Their believing is the surest evidence that they are born again.
We trust in Jesus for what we cannot do ourselves. If it were in our own power, why would we need to look to Him? It is ours to believe; it is the Lords to create us anew. He will not believe for us; neither are we to do the regenerating work for Him. It is enough for us to obey the gracious command. It is for the Lord to work the new birth in us.
But a saving change of heart is the work of the Holy Spirit.
We repent and believe, though we could do neither if the Lord did not enable us. We forsake sin and trust in Jesus. Then we perceive that the Lord has caused us to will and to do of His own good pleasure.

Spurgeon says in the book that when the crushed and broken come to God, they are incapable in themselves of working out their salvation. He says that although it may sound strange to say it they are as dead people although they have come to Christ. There job in regeneration is to trust in Christ, they cannot themselves rid themselves of the sin in them. They must trust Jesus, as clinging to Him as a limpet clings to a rock. He says it is Christ's responsibility to do the changing, their responsibility to look to Him and trust him

My own opinion from reading the book is that he is saying, we repent and believe, and then trust in Jesus for the regeneration of our bodies . He calls this the outworking of our salvation.

I believe it is a marvelous book and would recommend it to anyone to read for themselves. It can be read by going to the website. The book is 34,000 words long. If anyone is struggling as a new Christian I would definately recommend reading this book
www.echurchwebsites.org.uk

I hope I have correctly interpreted what he has written in the book.

BTW You could go straight to the parts on salvation/regeneration if you wanted to clarify what he believes
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#17
Hi Livingbygrace,

I realy enjoyed reading that. The confusion sets in with the 'Ordo Salutis'. Although this is a linear logical step from Scripture they are almost instantanious.

This is an example its an Old One, well I think it is.

Imagine you are in a dark room with no light whatsoever, and you cannot even see your nose. You fumble around in the dark, tripping over everything, then your hand feels the light switch. you hit the switch and the light comes on.

Now hear is the question what came first: The switch being flicked, or, you seeing the light?

To me I would say almost instantanious (this particularly shows in CH Spurgeons writings). However, one definatly follows the other.

Calvinists would say Faith comes from election, Arminians will say election comes from Faith.... when you look at both orders you will notice that the Arminian thought is more aligned with what you have to do... bordering on works.. or could be classed as somewhat semi pelagian.

The steps of the O/Salutis, should be looked upon as one step, even though it can be logical looked at in steps or stages. one thing we have to remember in all of this is that 'Salvation is of the Lord only' nothing that we can do can earn salvation.


Thanks for the post Livingbygrace, I have often though of buying Spurgeons 'Treasures of David (think thats what it is called)" volumes on the Psalms, might just do that now.

Phil
 
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ShelleBelle76

Guest
#18
Thanks for the post Livingbygrace, I have often though of buying Spurgeons 'Treasures of David (think thats what it is called)" volumes on the Psalms, might just do that now.

Phil
Just FYI ~

You can read the 'Treasury of David' series here: The Treasury of David. I bookmarked it the other day to add to to my bible study to do list. :)
 
Jan 8, 2009
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My own opinion from reading the book is that he is saying, we repent and believe, and then trust in Jesus for the regeneration of our bodies . He calls this the outworking of our salvation.
The Calvinist would say, or perhaps the ultra Calvinist, that this is a person working at their own salvation. They would say God caused us to believe and repent after choosing us for salvation. Tit 3:5 does not give the complete story of salvation. It is always implied that a person must repent and believe, and God and no one else can do that for us. The Arminian belief has always been closest to early christian thought and what the apostles believed and taught.

Irenaeus said, “But man, being endowed with reason, and in this respect similar to God, having been made free in his will, and with power over himself, is himself his own cause that sometimes he becomes wheat, and sometimes chaff.” [16]

But this is NOT the same what Pelagius taught as often suggested by ill-informed Calvinists. He taught:

Pelagius said, “Whenever I have to speak on the subject of moral instruction and conduct of a holy life, it is my practice first to demonstrate the power and quality of human nature and to show what it is capable of achieving, and then to go on to encourage the mind of my listener to consider the idea of different kinds of virtues, in case it may be of little or no profit to him to be summoned to pursue ends which he has perhaps assumed hitherto to be beyond his reach; for we can never end upon the path of virtue unless we have hope as our guide and compassion…any good of which human nature is capable has to be revealed, since what is shown to be practicable must be put into practice.” [20]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelagianism#Church_Fathers_on_free_will
 
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