Romans 8:1-2, is conditional

[reneweddaybyday]

Now go to Rom 8:1

There is therefrore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,

Romans 8.1continues on from 5.21. Romans 6-7 is a parenthesis dealing with problems, as it says. There is no conjunction to 8.1.

Are you suggesting we disregard Rom 6 and 7 because they are parenthetical?

A parenthesis is a word, clause, or sentence and is inserted as an explanation.

Whether Rom 8:1 follows Rom 5:21 or whether it follows Rom 7:25, the verses in Rom 6 and 7 were included in Paul's writings for a reason.

I believe what is written in those two chapters is very helpful to us as we learn to walk in the Lord.

As the believer continues in Christ Jesus there is no condemnation.

For the true believer there can never be any condemnation. He has been justified by His blood (Rom 5.9)

Have you ever studied the works of the flesh as opposed to the fruit of the Spirit? Very interesting study and at any point in our daily walk we can do a check up from the neck up to see where we are living our lives.

If we observe the works of the flesh in our life (anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication, lying – Col 3:8-9), we know we have left our abode in the Lord Jesus Christ and we are walking after the flesh.

If we observe the fruit of the spirit in our life (love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance – Gal 5:22-23), we know we are abiding in the Lord Jesus Christ.

It is easy to recognize when we have left our Lord Jesus Christ. We just need to get in the habit of checking where it is we are living.

If the believer turns from the Lord Jesus Christ and lives according to the flesh, he/she is again subjected to what we see in Rom 7 ... For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I (Rom 7:15).

no doubt you will show me where it SAYS that?

I can show you where it says that it is only as we put on the Lord Jesus Christ that we are able to not make provision for the lusts of our flesh.

Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.


When we fulfill the lusts of our flesh, we basically end up at Rom 7:15:


Romans 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.


because we end up doing those things we allow not and we do not do those things we would (Gr thelō – desire, wish) and we do what we hate. A person who is not born again doesn't care one way or the other whether he/she is pleasing to God. However, the born again believer does. And when the believer falls short, he/she feels it in the very depth of the heart. The believer knows when he/she has been drawn away from the Lord Jesus Christ.


Doesn't mean we're not born again. Just means we're not walking worthy of the vocation wherewith we've been called (Eph 4:1).

And it is as the believer walks in the flesh that see him/her living as shown in 1 Cor 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

A believer CANNOT walk after the flesh. He is born of the Spirit from above. He may simply pander to his flesh for a time. But he does not walk after the flesh. If he did he would prove he had never been a Christian.

What you term "simply pander to his flesh for a time", I refer to as walking according to the flesh.

I can see you are struggling with Romans.

Not at all.

 

[know1]

You do understand that Romans 8.1-2 is finishing the thought of Romans 7.25 right?

Yes sir, I do, even though it is split in chapters. However, 7:25 does not negate 8:1's condition. You cannot ignore even a few words in the bible just to support and especially to propagate a preferred doctrine or one you want to believe.
If you choose to use the corrupt Greek versions that omit part of the verse to support your doctrine, that is on you.
As for the rest of the 95% of manuscripts that agree with the KJV, the word of God still has a condition there in verse one that anyone who is of the truth, CANNOT ignore, and will therefore take it as part of the truth of the gospel.

 

[know1]

John was giving a typical greeting of the day to a friend and brother in Christ, Gaius. He was NOT being prophetic about the condition of ALL believers. You read with very little comprehension..... or, perhaps, you see only what you WANT to see, and form it to fit YOUR belief system.





There..... I give you three "witnesses"... therefore, my testimony is "truer"..... by your reckoning.

Mat 9:29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.

Then more power to the curse for you. And since you believe it is not the will of God to heal you, may you enjoy the sufferings that come with the sickness or poverty that comes your way, because God cannot use such doubt to heal or deliver.
And as for the persecution you used as a witness, it has nothing to do with sickness or poverty. It has to do with the wicked persecuting the righteous in Christ. Such as that which Paul did to the early church.

 

[know1]

Not quite right...

Jesus will not judge the believer at he judgement seat for their SIN, because he took care of the SIN problem over 2000 years.
The Judgement seat of Christ is where we give account of how we let the kingdom of God manifest in us to expand the kingdom.

There is NO condemnation since we are in Christ....PERIOD! Condemnation is from the enemy not Jesus Christ.

We do agree that the context of Romans 8 comes off Roman 7, 6, 5, 4, 3,2 and 1

If there is no condemnation,...period, then please explain what God did to them who drank and ate unworthily?

1Co 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
1Co 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
1Co 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
1Co 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

It's not saying they lost their salvation, but some did lose their lives or were made weak or sickly.
If this is not being condemned in the flesh or physically, then what is it or what do you call it?

 

[know1]

Those "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" is descriptive language of those who are in Christ. ​Believers walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit not in order to get in Christ, but because they are in Christ.

If a child of God gets sick and they say "I'm sick, I'm going to go to the doctor's office or get some medication", they are walking in the flesh and not the Spirit.

 

[mailmandan]

If a child of God gets sick and they say "I'm sick, I'm going to go to the doctor's office or get some medication", they are walking in the flesh and not the Spirit.

Romans 8:5 - For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

 

[know1]

The Peshitta is 4th century at the earliest. It is the old Syriac which dates earlier. The Greek dates back to 1st century. But we DO NOT HAVE actual manuscripts or versions at those dates. Your statements are therefore incorrect. You are giving to much credence to a few unsophisticated scholars.

The kjv was translated from MS all of which came 1000 years after the original.

Those statements were copied from a website, they are not my own, but there are plenty of others that back up the same facts.
I go with the 95 percent of manuscripts that confirm the received text. Anyone who is of the truth would have no problem seeing this fact. That is why you cannot receive it.

Joh 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

 

[Mitspa]

Actually the oldest and most reliable Greek text, do not include that condition ..one can add verse 4 to the context of verse one ..but the text CLEARLY does not include that thought as a condition

 

[know1]

In Romans condemnation is the opposite of justification, and justification is a Forensic term. It is speaking about our legal position in Christ.

All men are either condemned, once for all (1.18-3.20), or are justified in Christ (Rom 3.21-5.21), they are either under the Law or under grace. So it IS speaking of eternal condemnation.

Roman 3.21-5.21 have proved that we are justified. We are accounted as righteous with Christ's righteousness. We cannot therefore be condemned. That is why there is no condemnation in 8.1. As he says later in chapter 8. Because God has justified, who will condemn,

If chapter 8 is not about our eternal condemnation. what is it about? He gives the whole panorama from foreknowledge to glorification,

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Notice the separation between the law of sin and death.
That's two different laws that we are made free from IF we walk in the Spirit. As it is written.
There is more to life in Christ Jesus than saved or not saved. There's life on earth, in the here and now, in Christ Jesus.
There are both blessings and curses that each individual faces. The curses are a result of judgement or chastisement from God to His disobedient children. It has nothing to do with losing your eternal security, but it does have to do with losing your health or live as you know it in this world.

 

[hornetguy]

If a child of God gets sick and they say "I'm sick, I'm going to go to the doctor's office or get some medication", they are walking in the flesh and not the Spirit.

Ok... now you're officially out where the buses don't run...

It appears you are one of the wack.... I mean, the misguided people that will stand by and watch their child die, instead of taking them to the hospital for antibiotics that will cure their pneumonia.

If you ever had any credibility with me, (and believe me, it wasn't much to begin with) you've just lost it.

You need to go back to your JW folks and be happy there....

 

[know1]

1 Corinthians 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

carnal = Greek sarkikoi from sarx which means fleshly, having the nature of flesh, i.e. under the control of the animal appetites; pertains to behavior which is typical of human nature, but with special focus upon more base physical desires.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon says specifically of 1 Cor 3:1,3 "governed by mere human nature, not by the Spirit of God".




Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Only those who are born again can serve in newness of spirit.




Every "real Christian" as long as he/she is alive on this earth has to deal with his/her carnal flesh. That is the whole point of Rom 7.

Romans 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man

The inward man is what is created within at the time the believer is born again. And the born again believer can follow his/her fleshly instincts or he/she can follow the Lord Jesus Christ. It is not until the born again one follows the Lord Jesus Christ that he/she is delivered from the body of this death:


Romans 7:24-25 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

The flesh will always serve the law of sin. If/when we put on the Lord Jesus Christ, we are able to overcome the lusts of our flesh:

Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts hereof.


I know of no other way to not make provision for the flesh to fulfill the lusts thereof. And until the born again one turns from self to the Lord Jesus Christ and puts on the Lord Jesus Christ, the lusts of the flesh will prevail. We may fight against the flesh and try as hard as we can to not sin or become as the Rom 7 guy/gal. But why go through that struggle when the putting on of the Lord Jesus Christ causes those lusts to melt away? No struggle. Just peaceful rest.




You and I are not in agreement concerning the Romans 7 verses. At the very least, please just consider what I am saying to you. Thanks.

Nice post and well said.

 

[know1]

Are you suggesting we disregard Rom 6 and 7 because they are parenthetical?

A parenthesis is a word, clause, or sentence and is inserted as an explanation.

Whether Rom 8:1 follows Rom 5:21 or whether it follows Rom 7:25, the verses in Rom 6 and 7 were included in Paul's writings for a reason.

I believe what is written in those two chapters is very helpful to us as we learn to walk in the Lord.




Have you ever studied the works of the flesh as opposed to the fruit of the Spirit? Very interesting study and at any point in our daily walk we can do a check up from the neck up to see where we are living our lives.

If we observe the works of the flesh in our life (anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication, lying – Col 3:8-9), we know we have left our abode in the Lord Jesus Christ and we are walking after the flesh.

If we observe the fruit of the spirit in our life (love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance – Gal 5:22-23), we know we are abiding in the Lord Jesus Christ.

It is easy to recognize when we have left our Lord Jesus Christ. We just need to get in the habit of checking where it is we are living.




I can show you where it says that it is only as we put on the Lord Jesus Christ that we are able to not make provision for the lusts of our flesh.

Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.


When we fulfill the lusts of our flesh, we basically end up at Rom 7:15:


Romans 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.


because we end up doing those things we allow not and we do not do those things we would (Gr thelō – desire, wish) and we do what we hate. A person who is not born again doesn't care one way or the other whether he/she is pleasing to God. However, the born again believer does. And when the believer falls short, he/she feels it in the very depth of the heart. The believer knows when he/she has been drawn away from the Lord Jesus Christ.


Doesn't mean we're not born again. Just means we're not walking worthy of the vocation wherewith we've been called (Eph 4:1).




What you term "simply pander to his flesh for a time", I refer to as walking according to the flesh.




Not at all.

Again, very good post.
I can't help but like it, and of course to agree with the same.
You brought something up that I didn't see earlier though.
The part in Romans 8:1 referring to walking in the flesh would be the same as doing what you don't want to do in Romans 7:15.
I didn't see the connection before. Thanks.

 

[Mitspa]

Its not in the text... Its a error in the newer text ..its that simple

The text 1000 years OLDER do not include that passage ...

 

[know1]

Romans 8:5 - For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Is there a reason why Paul, who is writing to Christians, is telling them about being carnally minded, if they cannot be carnally minded because the Spirit of Christ is in them?
If they can't be carnally minded why tell them in the first place?
It would be nonsensical to think such a thing.

 

[know1]

Ok... now you're officially out where the buses don't run...

It appears you are one of the wack.... I mean, the misguided people that will stand by and watch their child die, instead of taking them to the hospital for antibiotics that will cure their pneumonia.

If you ever had any credibility with me, (and believe me, it wasn't much to begin with) you've just lost it.

You need to go back to your JW folks and be happy there....

First off, I'm not a JW.
Secondly, you have spoken beyond your knowledge of me.
I have said in the past to those who do not have the faith for healing that they should seek the best the natural has to offer, because it is very unlikely that God would heal them.
As for my family and I, well, we live what we preach. Not to perfection, as we are still growing, but we get more than just healings in our family.
And as for any credibility with you or anyone else for that matter, not to be insulting, but I could care less about that.
If I did, then I would go about trying to agree with everyone.
On CC I have zero friends, and that doesn't bother me in the least.
I'm not here on CC for the friends or the kudos, but to present what I sincerely believe to be the truth, and to learn a thing or two from a few folk.
If you haven't noticed, those who have had salvation taught in their churches have people getting saved but very few healings or deliverances. But the churches that teach healing and deliverance with salvation, have just that.
That is why I quoted Jesus as saying, "According to your faith be it done unto you".
Because that IS the law of faith.

 

[hornetguy]

Well.... sorry for accusing you of being a JW... but much of what you have stated seems to fit that belief system.

Thanks for stopping in to enlighten us about faith, though.

I don't see a lot of willingness to learn, on your part... simply a desire to expound your beliefs.

I HAVE seen quite a few healings.. of actual, real diseases, like colon cancer, etc.... These healings were a direct result of many believers taking it to the Father in prayer. I have also seen deaths of young people after many, many believers took it to the Father in prayer.

In other words, in my direct observation, and experience, God does not always heal. Many times, for reasons unknown to us, God says "no".

My response is NOT to question the "faith" of the ones praying for healing, but to trust that our loving Father knows us, and gives us what is best, according to His will.

and, again, why was the apostle Paul not healed of his affliction?

 

[Utah]

Another day, another OP stating Jesus isn't good enough.

Ho hum.

 

[Mitspa]

I guess he has lost the debate about these passages even being in that verse before .. The verse does not include the condition..its not in the text. Anyone that thinks it is ..we need to have a discussion and I will help you understand why its in the later text.

 

[know1]

I guess he has lost the debate about these passages even being in that verse before .. The verse does not include the condition..its not in the text. Anyone that thinks it is ..we need to have a discussion and I will help you understand why its in the later text.

And I would help you understand why it isn't in the earlier ones.

 

[Mitspa]

And I would help you understand why it isn't in the earlier ones.

Please do explain ..how can a text 1000 years older be less accurate than a text 1000 years newer? Its rather silly to think that a much older text, would be farther from the original intention of the writing.