Predestination

[mpaper345]

This is an important issue and needs to be addressed.

God does not pick and choose who will be saved.God is not going to condemn someone before they are born.People who believe that God will choose for someone to be condemned before they are born is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit because they are
saying God is evil when God is not evil but God is good.

God has given the choice to the people to decide whether to believe or not.

God is a good God and would not condemn someone before they are born.

It would go against God's nature which is goodness.

It would go against God's purpose to have people to dwell with Him that made the choice to live for Him because then it is true love.

God gave mankind a choice to decide whether they want to believe.

3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth(1 Timothy 2:3-4).

This clearly states that God wants all people to be saved.It is God's will that all people are saved.God wants all people to be saved,and God lets the person decide whether they believe or not believe.

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe(1 Timothy 4:10).

This is saying that God is the Saviour of all men,not some men,but all men,which means everybody has a chance to be saved.
Everybody has a chance to be saved and those that believe shall receive that salvation.


That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world(John 1:9).

This is saying that Jesus is the light of the world that lights every man that comes into the world,not some men,but every man,which means everybody has the chance to see the light of Jesus and the truth to be saved.

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely(Revelation 22:17).

This is saying whosoever will can be saved,which means whoever wants to be saved can be saved.

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved(Romans 10:13).

This is saying whoever calls on the Lord shall be saved,which means anybody that wants to be saved can be saved.

34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him(Acts 10:34-35).

God is no respecter of persons which means He does not favor one person above another and anybody that fears Him,and works righteousness,is accepted of Him.

God has left it up to the person to decide whether they believe or not.
God is a good God not an evil God.
Do not blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

God does not choose who will be saved and who will be lost,unless the person has decided that themself by believing or unbelieving.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made(John 1:3).

All things were made by Jesus and without God coming in the flesh to save mankind God would of not made anything.
What would be the purpose of God putting people on earth if their fate is already decided before they are born,they would have no choice but to be saved or lost.
That would go against God's goodness.
That would go against God's purpose of having people to dwell with Him that made the choice to dwell with Him because then it is true love.
God does choose people but after they make the decision to do right,not before they are born.

(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were(Romans 4:17).

God calls things that have not yet happened as though they already happened because if it is a plan of God in His mind to happen in the future it is the same as if it already happened.

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world(Revelation 13:8).

The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world,although we know it did not happen until 4000 years later.
God had already had the plan of salvation to give mankind before He made the world.

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world(Matthew 25:34).

The kingdom was already given before God created the world.God already had the plan of salvation to give to people before He created the world.

That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation(Luke 11:50).

The blood of the prophets were already spilled before God created the world,although we know it wasn't spilled until later.

Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world(John 17:24).

This is the man Christ Jesus praying to the Father in which the Father loved Him before He created the world,although the Son was not born until 4000 years later.The glory He would receive would be a glorified body and be in heaven on the throne,and Jesus prayed to the Father that the saints could have that glory too,a glorified body and be in heaven.

For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world(Hebrews 4:3).

Everything was already finished before God created the world.

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved(Ephesians 1:4-6).

Predestination does not mean that God chooses who will be saved and who will not be saved but it means that God already had the plan of salvation in His mind to give to mankind before he created the world,so it was the same as if mankind already had salvation,because God calls things that have not yet happened as though they already happened,and that salvation is to whoever wants that salvation.

The Bible is very clear that God does not choose who will be saved but the person decides whether to believe or not.God chooses those according to their heart and belief,so the person made that choice to believe.
The Bible is very clear that if something is a plan of God in His mind to happen in the future it is the same as if it already happened,not that God chooses who will be saved before they are born,but God already had the plan of salvation to give to mankind before He created the world.
All things were finished before they happened,so people already had salvation before God created the world,but that salvation is to whoever wants that salvation.

God does not choose people to be condemned before they are born.Do not blaspheme against the Holy Spirit.God is not evil but God is good.

If God did not let the people decide whether they believe or not believe then it would go against God's operation that He wants people to dwell with that made the choice to dwell with Him for then it is true love.

If God condemned a person before they are born then it would mean that God would condone people sinning for they would have no choice but to sin and go against God,then why are they judged seeing they have no choice but to be against God.God is not evil but God is good.

If all have sinned and come short of the glory of God then why would God choose who will be save and not saved before they are born seeing all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.God is not evil but God is good.

God predestinated us to salvation means that God already had the plan of salvation in His mind to give to mankind before He created the world,so it was the same as mankind already had that salvation,because God calls things that have not yet happened as though they already happened,and that salvation is to whoever wants that salvation,for God wants all people to be saved.

3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth(1 Timothy 2:3-4).

God wants all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.It is obvious that God does not choose who will saved and who will not be saved but has allowed people to choose whether they believe or not believe.

God already had the plan of salvation in His mind before He created the world,so He predestinated us to salvation,but that is to whoever want to believe,for God will have all men saved,and come to the knowledge of the truth.

God does choose who will be saved and who will not be saved,but it is based on the person whether they believe or not believe.

God is not evil but God is good.

Matt

[1still_waters]

Originally Posted by mpaper345

This is an important issue and needs to be addressed.



Matt

Oh don't worry, it will get addressed. I can pretty much predict how it's gonna go. :P

*fastens my seatbelt*

[phil36]

Originally Posted by 1still_waters

Oh don't worry, it will get addressed. I can pretty much predict how it's gonna go. :P

*fastens my seatbelt*

Lol, I'm not even going to enter into this debate.... well, maybe not yet though ;p resist, resist I must resist

All I can say is, if God had not chosen me, and enabled me to see the light, for In my dead state would not have chosen Him... all the glory goes to God

I can feel people getting angry already at just the mention of the 'P' word


In Love

Phil

[livingbygrace]

I can only respond to this from my personal life.

I never really in my heart wanted to put God first. He saved me when I was in a desperate situation. As soon as I was out of this situation I did what I wanted to do and turned from what He wanted in my life. I treated God terribly.
I only kept coming back to Him because He allowed my situations to become impossible, and so in desperation I kept returning to Him
Looking back now, I believe God literally had to force me to bend the knee to Him. I was to much of a rebel, selfish and self centered. If my life had of gone OK without God I would never have returned to Him. In the end, broken and exhausted I stopped rebelling and came to God and bowed the knee
Now I love God and want Him to have the rest of my life, but I know I am only in this position because He made my life impossible for me to cope with without Him. I literally had no choice but to return to Him, believe me that is the truth. The more I turned away the more dire my situations became. I know it was God ensuring I had to come back to Him. I spent so many wasted years like this.

Would you call that free will? or free choice?

I call it Amazing Grace, Amazing Love that I never deserved, so Amazing that God ensured no matter how awfully I treated Him I had to return to His love and His Son

[VW]

Those whom God foreknew, them He predestined to become conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. Jesus is the first born among many brethren.

Because God knows beforehand who will come to Him does not mean that He chose one over another, but rather He knows, because He is God, who will receive and who will not. He knows what it will take to bring each and every one who will believe into His grace. And He has perfect timing in bringing about that salvation. But, we did not choose Him, rather He chose us. I always remember that if He had not loved me, and taken it upon Himself to save me, I would not be saved.

So, the predestination is not who will be saved, but that those who will be saved will be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ.

Originally Posted by 1still_waters

Oh don't worry, it will get addressed. I can pretty much predict how it's gonna go. :P

*fastens my seatbelt*

My response is similar to Phil's, but I believe in corporate election and not individual predestination. That's all I will say though because this debate will go on until Jesus returns lol.

[VW]

I think that maybe I should explain foreknew. God, oddly enough, is not confined to time. He is said to be the same yesterday, today, and forever, that is, unchangeable. But I also see this as His not being affected by time, like we are. And even more, that He sees yesterday and tomorrow just as well as He sees today. Maybe even better. And so, in the beginning, God knew who would receive, and who would not. In this way, He foreknew us. In this way, He predestined us whom He foreknew to become conformed to the image of the Son, Jesus Christ. And He is able to work this, no matter how unlikely it might seem to us.

In His peace and love,
vic

[phil36]

Originally Posted by VW

Those whom God foreknew, them He predestined to become conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. Jesus is the first born among many brethren.

Because God knows beforehand who will come to Him does not mean that He chose one over another, but rather He knows, because He is God, who will receive and who will not. He knows what it will take to bring each and every one who will believe into His grace. And He has perfect timing in bringing about that salvation. But, we did not choose Him, rather He chose us. I always remember that if He had not loved me, and taken it upon Himself to save me, I would not be saved.

So, the predestination is not who will be saved, but that those who will be saved will be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ.

You seem to have forgotten what that whole sentence says: I'll paste it below for you:

29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

I praise God that He foreknew me, predestined me, called me, Justified me, He gives me the power for Sanctification and one day will Glorify me.

If we are honest with ourselves and forget about theological stand points, we should realize that Something just clicks inside us, and we see the Majesty of God.

in Love

Phil

Originally Posted by phil36

All I can say is, if God had not chosen me, and enabled me to see the light, for In my dead state would not have chosen Him... all the glory goes to God

I am doing my best to stay out of these heated debates, but I did want to make one brief remark.

Isn't it God's will that none should parish, but that all should come to repentance and be saved? All meaning every single person that has ever existed, exists today or will exist in the future, until the end of days. My personal answer is yes. He loves every soul and desires for all men to be saved and receive eternal life with Him.

However, do you think every single soul will be saved? The obvious answer, if you have ever cracked open The Bible, is no, not everyone will be saved. So, if He loves us all and desires to save us all, but we will not all be saved, who makes the choice as to who will be lost? Certainly NOT GOD! Why would He condemn someone to death if they have not wronged Him? And by wronged Him I mean... chosen not to acknowledge Him and His offer of salvation.

All glory absolutely goes to God, because we are all undeserving of salvation. However, how can you say someone can have the free will to reject the tug of God at their heartstrings (those who will be lost) yet not say someone has the free will to accept God's offer of salvation?

Originally Posted by phil36

Lol, I'm not even going to enter into this debate.... well, maybe not yet though ;p resist, resist I must resist

All I can say is, if God had not chosen me, and enabled me to see the light, for In my dead state would not have chosen Him... all the glory goes to God

I can feel people getting angry already at just the mention of the 'P' word


In Love

Phil

Well for me it is.... actually the same..The Lord choose me first... so I am complete dependent from Him.
It is all grace. I never earn it.. And still I don't earn it.

And I know the command from the Lord... Go you therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost

And the rest.. that is the case of the Lord..

[VW]

Originally Posted by phil36

You seem to have forgotten what that whole sentence says: I'll paste it below for you:

29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

I praise God that He foreknew me, predestined me, called me, Justified me, He gives me the power for Sanctification and one day will Glorify me.

If we are honest with ourselves and forget about theological stand points, we should realize that Something just clicks inside us, and we see the Majesty of God.

in Love

Phil

I did not forget, I just see the highlighted portion as His conforming us to His image. And it still does not change the first part of the sentence, for those God foreknew.........shows that He foreknew us and then predestined us to become conformed to His image. Foreknew is not predestination, in my mind, rather seeing the ending from the beginning. It is not really an issue of who will be saved, but rather what happens those who receive Him.

In love right back at you brother,
vic

[Pete_Martinez]

Originally Posted by ShelleBelle76

I am doing my best to stay out of these heated debates, but I did want to make one brief remark.

Isn't it God's will that none should parish, but that all should come to repentance and be saved? All meaning every single person that has ever existed, exists today or will exist in the future, until the end of days. My personal answer is yes. He loves every soul and desires for all men to be saved and receive eternal life with Him.

However, do you think every single soul will be saved? The obvious answer, if you have ever cracked open The Bible, is no, not everyone will be saved. So, if He loves us all and desires to save us all, but we will not all be saved, who makes the choice as to who will be lost? Certainly NOT GOD! Why would He condemn someone to death if they have not wronged Him? And by wronged Him I mean... chosen not to acknowledge Him and His offer of salvation.

All glory absolutely goes to God, because we are all undeserving of salvation. However, how can you say someone can have the free will to reject the tug of God at their heartstrings (those who will be lost) yet not say someone has the free will to accept God's offer of salvation?

Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
Joh 3:20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance

2Pe 3:3 knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires.
2Pe 3:4 They will say, "Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation."
2Pe 3:5 For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God,
2Pe 3:6 and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished.
2Pe 3:7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

If God was truly willing to save everyone, he would not afterwards have said but these are the ones I'm not going to save.

And in Peter, everyone's favorite verse, he says God is willing that all should come to repentance. Again, if this is true, why did he beforehand say that scoffers would come? After all, isn't everyone supposed to be saved and come to repentance? Why even bother mentioning Noah's flood? Yes, God is willing to save but he is also willing that some perish.

[VW]

Originally Posted by Pete_Martinez

Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
Joh 3:20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance

2Pe 3:3 knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires.
2Pe 3:4 They will say, "Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation."
2Pe 3:5 For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God,
2Pe 3:6 and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished.
2Pe 3:7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

If God was truly willing to save everyone, he would not afterwards have said but these are the ones I'm not going to save.

And in Peter, everyone's favorite verse, he says God is willing that all should come to repentance. Again, if this is true, why did he beforehand say that scoffers would come? After all, isn't everyone supposed to be saved and come to repentance? Why even bother mentioning Noah's flood? Yes, God is willing to save but he is also willing that some perish.

God knows the beginning from the end. Just because He knows that some will come in the last days and scoff, and has reserved punishment for them does not mean that He set them up to become scoffers. We cannot blame God for someone not receiving Him and being saved. It is no one's fault for denying God but the one who denies Him. Remember before you were saved. Did God make you refuse Him?

Originally Posted by Pete_Martinez

Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
Joh 3:20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance

2Pe 3:3 knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires.
2Pe 3:4 They will say, "Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation."
2Pe 3:5 For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God,
2Pe 3:6 and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished.
2Pe 3:7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

If God was truly willing to save everyone, he would not afterwards have said but these are the ones I'm not going to save.

And in Peter, everyone's favorite verse, he says God is willing that all should come to repentance. Again, if this is true, why did he beforehand say that scoffers would come? After all, isn't everyone supposed to be saved and come to repentance? Why even bother mentioning Noah's flood? Yes, God is willing to save but he is also willing that some perish.

And if you really believe that, this only shows the ignorance of Calvinism and the lenses you use to filter out the obvious and plain truths of the bible.

[livingbygrace]

In Him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of His will. Eph1:11

Not only that but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our Father Isaac. But before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad-in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by Him who calls-she was told, 'The older will serve the younger.' Just as it is written.
'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.
What then shall we say? Is God unjust?. Not at all! For He says to Moses.
I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy
and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
It does not therefore depend on man's desire or effort but on God's mercy.
Rom9:10-16

Acts 17
30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,
31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.

Even Calvinistic scholars recognize this as a universal call to repentance for ALL MEN, please do not try to put the words "all men" and "everywhere" into the Calvinistic filter and turn it into "every race of all men, in every nation".

The most plain and obvious reading of the text is God "commands all men everywhere to repent" (literally quoting the text there).

Now I would love to ask any Calvinist, do the non-Elect have the ability to repent? Do the non-Elect have the ability to believe?

If not, why does God give a command that can not be kept? Why would God tell someone to repent ALTHOUGH He predestined them to live their lifestyle?

By the way, just in case anyone wants to say I am misrepresenting Calvinism please take a look at these quotes from these reformed scholar,and even John Calvin himself!:

“He hated the reprobate and planned their sin and ****ation” – Robert Morey

“That men do nothing save at the secret instigation of God, and do not discuss and deliberate on any thing but what he has previously decreed with himself and brings to pass by his secret direction”. – John Calvin

“God has predestined whomever he saw fit, not only to ****ation, but also to the causes of it…The decree of God cannot be excluded from the cause of man’s corruption.” -Theodore Beza

[livingbygrace]

For the scripture says to Pharoah. 'I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.
Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden.
One of you will say to me. 'Then why does God still blame us? For who resists His will?'
But who are you o man to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it. 'Why did you make me like this?' Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use. Rom9:17-21

But if there are any Calvinist here who believes they understand Calvinism better than John Calvin, Robert Morey or Beza please feel free to correct them .

Originally Posted by Pete_Martinez

Yes, God is willing to save but he is also willing that some perish.

2 Peter 3:9

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."