Church will Fall Away

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PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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#1
Paul teaches the Thessalonians that before the Man of Sin is revealed and before Christ returns, the Church will "fall away." To me this implies that the Church is restraining the Man of Sin from being revealed. The concept of "falling away" is much different than the concept of being snatched up (raptured). That would be a lifting up, not a falling away.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition...

In my church we have very few young people. I would estimate about 70% of the church is older than me. What is it like in other churches? Are we just going to die out, those of us with faith? According to a recent 2015 Washington Post article (link below), Christianity is down 8% in just 7 years under Barrack Obama in America.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-becoming-even-less-affiliated-with-religion/

All across Europe, Christian churches are being replaced by Mosques. In the middle east you are killed if you are a Christian which I'm sure isn't helping our numbers. Part of the reason in the decline is Christians have one wife and family size is shrinking while Muslims are allowed 4 wives and often have larger families. The other main reason is world attitude towards Christians is increasingly hostile, if not outright fatal.

 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
#2
Paul teaches the Thessalonians that before the Man of Sin is revealed and before Christ returns, the Church will "fall away." To me this implies that the Church is restraining the Man of Sin from being revealed. The concept of "falling away" is much different than the concept of being snatched up (raptured). That would be a lifting up, not a falling away.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition...

In my church we have very few young people. I would estimate about 70% of the church is older than me. What is it like in other churches? Are we just going to die out, those of us with faith? According to a recent 2015 Washington Post article (link below), Christianity is down 8% in just 7 years under Barrack Obama in America.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-becoming-even-less-affiliated-with-religion/

All across Europe, Christian churches are being replaced by Mosques. In the middle east you are killed if you are a Christian which I'm sure isn't helping our numbers. Part of the reason in the decline is Christians have one wife and family size is shrinking while Muslims are allowed 4 wives and often have larger families. The other main reason is world attitude towards Christians is increasingly hostile, if not outright fatal.

He does not say the CHURCH will fall way, he says there will be a falling away. The true church of Christ will be victorious.

What gave you the right to say the church is the American church, or even the European church?.

The church in Indonesia is increasing by leaps and bounds. America has had its day, like England had 100 years ago.
 
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PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
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#3
He does not say the CHURCH will fall way, he says there will be a falling away. The true church of Christ will be victorious.

What gave you the right to say the church is the American church, or even the European church?.

The church in Indonesia is increasing by leaps and bounds. America has had its day, like England had 100 years ago.
Common sense, what's with the vicious attack? Who or what do you think falls away if not the Church? I am merely pointing out where churches are falling away. Christianity is on the decline in America, Europe and across the middle east. But I'm not even sure if decline in Christianity is really what "falling away" means. It more likely means those who supposedly had faith, then reject it.

As the writer of Hebrews says:

[SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]5 [/SUP]and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, [SUP]6 [/SUP]if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.





 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48
#4
Paul teaches the Thessalonians that before the Man of Sin is revealed and before Christ returns, the Church will "fall away." To me this implies that the Church is restraining the Man of Sin from being revealed. The concept of "falling away" is much different than the concept of being snatched up (raptured). That would be a lifting up, not a falling away.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition...

In my church we have very few young people. I would estimate about 70% of the church is older than me. What is it like in other churches? Are we just going to die out, those of us with faith? According to a recent 2015 Washington Post article (link below), Christianity is down 8% in just 7 years under Barrack Obama in America.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-becoming-even-less-affiliated-with-religion/

All across Europe, Christian churches are being replaced by Mosques. In the middle east you are killed if you are a Christian which I'm sure isn't helping our numbers. Part of the reason in the decline is Christians have one wife and family size is shrinking while Muslims are allowed 4 wives and often have larger families. The other main reason is world attitude towards Christians is increasingly hostile, if not outright fatal.

Paul was talking to the Thessalonians and dealing with issues and concerns of their day. Most Christians like the read the bible with 21st century googles, meaning they have a 21st century mind set instead of trying to understand the context. I'm not saying that the bible is useless for us today, in which many will accuse me of saying. There are many golden nuggets we can take out of scripture and apply to our lives. But in this case in Thessalonians, I believe Paul is referring to current local and near future events of his day, not ours.

On a positive note, I hold fast to the clear and relative;
Matthew 16:18
18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
588
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#5
Plainword. You said and understood that HIS KINGDOM is not of this world and that even now HE is building. How do you think anyone can snatch what belongs to HIM out of HIS hands?
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
#6
Christianity is on the decline in America, Europe and across the middle east.



I dont think that everybody who says in survery he is a Christian really is.

So maybe the "cultural Christians" are on the decline, not the real ones.

When Jesus said that the path is narrow and only few will find it, I think that means that 60% of Americans or 50% of Russians cannot be the real Christians, even though statistics say that.
 

breno785au

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2013
6,002
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Australia
#7
Our church has had enormous favour with the government of Papua New Guinea. They did something that was against their protocol to do because they all felt that they 'need to hear what this man had to say'.. Afterwards, there were hundreds of Christians outside their parliament with their prime minister and officials praying..how amazing!
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
#8
I dont think that everybody who says in survery he is a Christian really is.

So maybe the "cultural Christians" are on the decline, not the real ones.

When Jesus said that the path is narrow and only few will find it, I think that means that 60% of Americans or 50% of Russians cannot be the real Christians, even though statistics say that.
That is most likely true. I think "real" Christians are much less today than 50 years ago though. So few in my country stand up to the immorality going on. They are afraid to speak up because they will be labeled as bigots or against women's right to choose, etc.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
#9
That is most likely true. I think "real" Christians are much less today than 50 years ago though. So few in my country stand up to the immorality going on. They are afraid to speak up because they will be labeled as bigots or against women's right to choose, etc.
Yeah, situation is turning around... few decades ago Christians had much freedom and influence in USA and in Eastern Europe or Asia Christians they were persecuted.

Now it seems that Christian values are much more influential in Russia, Serbia or Poland than in the West... sad picture.

I think that real Christians are always around 5-10% in every country, only culture is changing to better or to worse.
 
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PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
#10
Plainword. You said and understood that HIS KINGDOM is not of this world and that even now HE is building. How do you think anyone can snatch what belongs to HIM out of HIS hands?
I don't recall saying that I thought someone could snatch what belongs to Him out of His hands. Can you show me where I said that?

Paul teaches that there is a falling away from the faith before the Man of Sin is revealed and Christ returns. Jesus teaches that there are 4 types of "believers" and only 1 of them produced a crop. If you read Mat 13:1-8 you will see the seed sowed by the wayside, the stony places, and the thorns initially believed but then trouble beset them and they "died."

I believe the birds, the lack of earth and the thorns represent "tribulations." While some believe, they don't have the conviction or strength or desire or whatever to take the "punishment" the world will dish out. If you find a church or churches in a country or place where there is little to no tribulation, it is easy to be a Christian. Introduce ISIS, beheadings, kidnappings, rapings and other threats to these quiet, safe churches and let's see how many "keep the faith."

I'm not a betting man but I bet that if radical Jihadists started going into American churches and started shooting them up by the hundreds each week we'd see a decline in attendance across the nation in all church attendance, even those who weren't attacked yet.


 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
#11
Yeah, situation is turning around... few decades ago Christians had much freedom and influence in USA and in Eastern Europe or Asia Christians they were persecuted.

Now it seems that Christian values are much more influential in Russia, Serbia or Poland than in the West... sad picture.

I think that real Christians are always around 5-10% in every country, only culture is changing to better or to worse.
It is always good to get another prospective from another part of the world. If we look at history since Christ until now, there have been periods of Christian expansion and decline. Usually the decline has been the result of Islam since they add to their numbers by fear and intimidation and outright murder. From my prospective (and I travel the world a decent amount), I see a decline in much of western Europe and the USA particularly and in the middle east as thousands are being killed.

However, I don't think the "falling away" has happened yet. I still see the power God has given His witnesses in force against evil in various places.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
#12
Our church has had enormous favour with the government of Papua New Guinea. They did something that was against their protocol to do because they all felt that they 'need to hear what this man had to say'.. Afterwards, there were hundreds of Christians outside their parliament with their prime minister and officials praying..how amazing!
Thanks for sharing this story. It is truly amazing. In some places the hunger and thirst is strong. That is encouraging.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
#13
Paul was talking to the Thessalonians and dealing with issues and concerns of their day. Most Christians like the read the bible with 21st century googles, meaning they have a 21st century mind set instead of trying to understand the context. I'm not saying that the bible is useless for us today, in which many will accuse me of saying. There are many golden nuggets we can take out of scripture and apply to our lives. But in this case in Thessalonians, I believe Paul is referring to current local and near future events of his day, not ours.

On a positive note, I hold fast to the clear and relative;
Matthew 16:18
18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
Sure, Paul was writing specifically to them. But he was addressing some confusion about the Day of the Lord that arose from his first letter. The Thessalonians were concerned that they might have missed the return of Jesus. As you may recall, many of their day thought the return would be imminent. So Paul cleared that matter up in his second letter telling them indeed that Christ had not returned yet and he gave them two prerequisites: The "falling away" and the "revealing of the Man of Sin."

Paul further tells them to not be deceived by any means as Christ WILL NOT return until those two prerequisites are met. Paul said to not listen to anyone who teaches something contrary to this. So while Paul wrote to the Thessalonians about many things more relative to them, this particular issue is more relative to the generation in the future who is alive to witness these two prerequisite events.

Christ's message to Peter, which you cite, is a different message. The true Church will not face Hades. The reason for this is the "Church Body" is saved (born again). Those born again will NEVER face the second death. This is a different concept than the "falling away" which deals with the Church in the last days losing its influence/membership. Make sense?
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
7,417
3,468
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#14
I believe the falling away is pointing to the falling away of belief in the true Gospel of Christ and it's replacement with a false doctrines or doctrines of devils..

1 Timothy 4:KJV
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

So there probably will be filled churches full of enthusiastic congregants,, But they will be preaching things like WOF or toronto blessings like doctrines..
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#15
I think the falling away is in respect to the non-regenerated Jews that had a hope that their flesh would count or profit towards salvation. This is even though Christ said of His own flesh, it could not profit. Many of the disciples that were trusting in their own flesh walked away in unbelief.(no faith) And no longer walked with Him (the falling away)

We walk by faith of Christ that comes from hearing God who has not form. And not by sight after our own experiences.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
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#16
, what's with the vicious attack?


You imagine vicious attacks where there are none. My question was a simple plain one asking what right you had to limit the church to one part of the world when in parts of the word Christianity is advancing. There was no viciousness about it.


 

OneFaith

Senior Member
Sep 5, 2016
2,270
369
83
#17
Not all the church will fall away. Christ church will be here from the day He established it, till the day He returns. The falling away is branch-offs of the real church that Christ established (false man-made religions)- which is in great number (the great falling away).

"The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer." 1 Timothy 4

"In vain do they worship Me- teaching as doctrine the commands of men."




(Sorry, I am having trouble getting the font all the same size, it's not working.)
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
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#18
You imagine vicious attacks where there are none. My question was a simple plain one asking what right you had to limit the church to one part of the world when in parts of the word Christianity is advancing. There was no viciousness about it.


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I didn't limit anything. I was merely giving readily available statistics in certain places. I didn't realize that my right to free speech now requires permission.:cool:
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
#19
Not all the church will fall away. Christ church will be here from the day He established it, till the day He returns. The falling away is branch-offs of the real church that Christ established (false man-made religions)- which is in great number (the great falling away).

"The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer." 1 Timothy 4

"In vain do they worship Me- teaching as doctrine the commands of men."




(Sorry, I am having trouble getting the font all the same size, it's not working.)
That is a very interesting spin on the "falling away." However, I think what you are saying is more in line with what we see at the 3rd trumpet, a poisoning of the water, so to speak. I think the falling away aligns more with the 4th trumpet, where a third of the "light" goes dark. But we are all just speculating.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
#20
I think the falling away is in respect to the non-regenerated Jews that had a hope that their flesh would count or profit towards salvation. This is even though Christ said of His own flesh, it could not profit. Many of the disciples that were trusting in their own flesh walked away in unbelief.(no faith) And no longer walked with Him (the falling away)

We walk by faith of Christ that comes from hearing God who has not form. And not by sight after our own experiences.


This is another excellent theory. During and after WWII, Jews had returned to God in big numbers. The new state of Israel was very faith based and we see the blessings and protections they enjoyed. Today, much of Israel is secular. I think I read about 50-60%. These secularists still keep some religious traditions but that is more out of custom.

If the "falling away" from God deals with Israelis, we are pretty much there.