Salvation, Forgiveness, Grace, Faith, and Works

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eph610

Guest
Oh? so this is a calvin vs arminian issue, (that is what it seams you seem to be saying,) Not a God issue? Again, I know many people who are not calvanist, yet believe the same.

It appears you have already made up your mind, That is not how many times you told me what I believe? (that is what Got peter in trouble)





So if salvation is 100% in Jesus, how can it be lost. that would mean it is 100% based on jesus and 0% based n self the way I see it, So there is no way salvation could possibly be lost.
Because no matter what we do. it would not affect that salvation.
Predestination camouflaged in grace is exactly what you preach....its not a big deal, I could care less. You seem to be making it a big deal, and only because somebody checked under your hood and called you on it..

You can justify and spin and cry foul all day that people have no way to tell you what you are preaching, but that is childish...by their fruits you will know them...I know you and others don't buy into that, but Jesus told me how to check under hoods and your just uptight because it is now out and in the open that you preach Predestination camouflaged in grace..


good day EG....
 
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eph610

Guest

As I tried to explain, God is outside of our time, What will happen 1000 years from now. God already knows.

It is hard to understand because we are limited to time.
Just as he knew ADAM, would SIN and not be able stay in fellowship with him, so he had a plan....
 
Feb 24, 2015
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I always love the chosen crowd. You are chosen for heaven, you are chosen to rot in hell and
be tortured for all eternity for sin you could not choose not to commit.

Now that really sounds like a just God, not.

I prefer so that God could have a holy people like unto himself in heart and intent, he was prepared
to give the opportunity of life to all, and set tasks for those who he would help walk with Him.

Now some will be impossibly lost and few impossibly saved. But the worth of those who will live
eternally with the Lord is worth the gift of life and extinction of those who are so irrepairably damaged
nothing can be done to bring them into eternity to function.

Ones love for the Father and life will show on which version of reality to choose to believe based on
what you know about Him. Your choice also reflects on whether you know what evil really is and
how true justice works.
 
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pottersclay

Guest
Salvation was set up before the foundations of the earth....all men created in the image of God.......for God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son.......doesn't sound like favoritism to me.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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Predestination camouflaged in grace is exactly what you preach....its not a big deal, I could care less. You seem to be making it a big deal, and only because somebody checked under your hood and called you on it..

You can justify and spin and cry foul all day that people have no way to tell you what you are preaching, but that is childish...by their fruits you will know them...I know you and others don't buy into that, but Jesus told me how to check under hoods and your just uptight because it is now out and in the open that you preach Predestination camouflaged in grace..


good day EG....
You don't like pre-destination, eph610??

Romans 9:18-24
[FONT=&quot]18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Is this not pre-destination? And election, which amounts to the same thing with God. Its not like He wonders who He will elect next...[/FONT]
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
I was just wondering, why in these threads (which I have been in many) the gorilla in the room is not addressed?
So let me point out the gorilla.....we are judged by what kind of servant we become. What we did with our gift and it would seem more than a brief wood shed teaching is given.
We are accountable for the gifts we received....just saying.
This is true.

But that does not negate the fact. The gift is still ours. That (in this thread) is the issue. In my mind. What a person does with it (sanctification be) is between a father and his son (or daughter) It is not for us to declare that son is no longer a son, or daughter has lost her daughters hip (salvation)

The gift is salvation/justification

The gorilla is sanctification
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Predestination camouflaged in grace is exactly what you preach....its not a big deal, I could care less. You seem to be making it a big deal, and only because somebody checked under your hood and called you on it..
So because the bible states predestination. Anyone who says predestination is always Calvinist. I am sorry my friend, but that is a cop out. That is actually quite rude.

What I see the issue is is that you do not wish to discuss a word written in scripture. "Like chosen, or predestined or foreknowledge" So you just relate it as a Calvinist ploy?

I am neither Calvinist or Armenian. I am a child of God. We need to stop following men, And Stuart following God would you not agree?



You can justify and spin and cry foul all day that people have no way to tell you what you are preaching, but that is childish...by their fruits you will know them...I know you and others don't buy into that, but Jesus told me how to check under hoods and your just uptight because it is now out and in the open that you preach Predestination camouflaged in grace..


good day EG....
I will say this, I am glad it took me a day or two to get back to you. This has got to be the m,out childish response I have ever heard. I pray you have calmed down yourself.

You want to follow men, and put people under categories. You will have made the mistake so many others in CC have done. And have completely destroyed any chance of communication./ Becausew when you do that, you assume you know what they teach. And 99.9 percent of the time, YOU ARE WRONG.

Ask PeterJens what happens when you assume things like this.. That his major error.

 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Just as he knew ADAM, would SIN and not be able stay in fellowship with him, so he had a plan....

Yep He had a plan.

He knew you before the creation of time, And he knew what you would chose at that time,, Nothing you have done, Are doing or will do will ever cause God to stand back and say, Oh wow I did not know he would do that.. I have to change what I predetermined.. Because he did something I did not KNOW he was going to do.


Thats not calvanism..
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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Yep He had a plan.

He knew you before the creation of time, And he knew what you would chose at that time,, Nothing you have done, Are doing or will do will ever cause God to stand back and say, Oh wow I did not know he would do that.. I have to change what I predetermined.. Because he did something I did not KNOW he was going to do.


Thats not calvanism..
I'm not saying you're wrong, but do you have Scripture to back this up or assumption because "God is God"?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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Just as he knew ADAM, would SIN and not be able stay in fellowship with him, so he had a plan....
Question, did God know Adam would sin? Or did God have a plan if Adam sinned?
 
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The scripture does say that Christ was slain from the foundation of the world. This would indicate that God knows "stuff"...:)

Sometimes I think us trying to figure out the things of God with our finite minds is like trying to know the exact population of ants in the rain forests of the world.
 
Feb 24, 2015
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I wonder EG. I understand that intellectually you think I am you 20 years ago.

My question is what happened to you so you changed?
Whatever shook you up, have you recovered or are you still suffering?

When I made a list of issues or steps we take in following Christ you picked out
conscience as a problem. Is this because your conscience is off by a long way?

And when I mention a pure heart, it seems to cause you a problem. Have you
purity issues or cannot resolve the desire verses expression dilemma?

These are rhetorical questions, because I ask the same thing in my life. And
the answers are yes I walk with a pure heart, my conscience is clear, and I see
Christ and His proclamation that sin leads to death, is so true.

But this is not about boasting it is about health and life. Jesus desires that we
walk righteously in love and truth, but somewhere this has evaded you. I say this
because you see me as your enemy and someone you need to break, which I have
never understood, it is so disfunctional. It reflects repressed anger and bitterness
as if I represent something from your past you blame as failed and betrayed you.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
I'm not saying you're wrong, but do you have Scripture to back this up or assumption because "God is God"?
Assumption? what makes someone think I assume (just asking)

Did not David in the psalms state God knew him in his mothers womb, Every hair on his head etc etc.

Here is the issue,

God said we (his children) are predestined, Chosen before the foundation of the world. to be holy and righteous, to be conformed to his image, To be made his son and daughters.

So either fatalism is right, And God chose and determined who will be saved, and no one has a choice in the Matter

Or God chose based on the fact that Everyone who has faiht in him will be saved, That through our faith we were given the right to be called children of God. And God predestination/choosing is based on the fact he knew who would recieve his gift,

Just like he knew adam would sin, Just like he knew Christ would die, Just like he knew all thinigs..
 
C

Connoisseur

Guest
The scripture does say that Christ was slain from the foundation of the world. This would indicate that God knows "stuff"...:)

Sometimes I think us trying to figure out the things of God with our finite minds is like trying to know the exact population of ants in the rain forests of the world.

I often have the same thought and sometimes give up trying to figure out and just trust Him at His Word (as best as I can understand it).

I don't know if that's a bad thing, hehehe :confused:
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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3,502
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Assumption? what makes someone think I assume (just asking)

Did not David in the psalms state God knew him in his mothers womb, Every hair on his head etc etc.

Yes, God knew David in his mother's womb. But did God know David before conception?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
I wonder EG. I understand that intellectually you think I am you 20 years ago.

My question is what happened to you so you changed?
Whatever shook you up, have you recovered or are you still suffering?
What shook me up? The truth. and people not allowing me to be my arrogant, self centered self.. who thought i knew it all..

Am I still recovering, Yes, And I will be until I die,



When I made a list of issues or steps we take in following Christ you picked out
conscience as a problem. Is this because you conscience is off by a long way?

And when I mention a pure heart, it seems to cause you a problem. Have you
purity issues or cannot resolve the desire verses expression dilemma?

These are rhetorical questions, because I ask the same thing in my life. And
the answers are yes I walk with a pure heart, my conscience is clear, and I see
Christ and His proclamation that sin leads to death, is so true.

But this is not about boasting it is about health and life. Jesus desires that we
walk righteously in love and truth, but somewhere this has evaded you. I say this
because you see me as your enemy and someone you need to break, which I have
never understood, it is so disfunctional. It reflects repressed anger and bitterness
as if I represent something from your past you blame as failed and betrayed you.
hmm, You know what is sad Peter. Is you have not yet even begun. Because are still focused on self. Your conscious is clear because you THINK you are ok.. Everyone has been trying to tell you you are in danger, But you can not see it.

A person who is so hard that he can not see things which can destroy him,, Is in danger and he can not even see it,

Paul had to be knocked to the ground , made blind, and have a visit from God himself to repent from his self righteousness.

What will it take for PeterJens to be knocked to the ground, made blind, and allow Jesus to visit him?

 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Yes, God knew David in his mother's womb. But did God know David before conception?
did one second God not know him, then the next (the time of conception) God knew every thing he would ever do. The number of hairs on his head at any given moment, and other things?

ie, did it just come to him in a moment of time? or did he know all along.



 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,538
3,502
113
Assumption? what makes someone think I assume (just asking)

Did not David in the psalms state God knew him in his mothers womb, Every hair on his head etc etc.

Here is the issue,

God said we (his children) are predestined, Chosen before the foundation of the world. to be holy and righteous, to be conformed to his image, To be made his son and daughters.

So either fatalism is right, And God chose and determined who will be saved, and no one has a choice in the Matter

Or God chose based on the fact that Everyone who has faiht in him will be saved, That through our faith we were given the right to be called children of God. And God predestination/choosing is based on the fact he knew who would recieve his gift,

Just like he knew adam would sin, Just like he knew Christ would die, Just like he knew all thinigs..
Can an almighty God choose not to know certain things until they occur leaving the choice up to man? And man's choice would certainly NOT catch God by surprise. Are things knowledge when they come to be or before they come to be and God has chosen to work within this time frame dealing with man?

These questions always have fascinated me...
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,538
3,502
113
did one second God not know him, then the next (the time of conception) God knew every thing he would ever do. The number of hairs on his head at any given moment, and other things?

ie, did it just come to him in a moment of time? or did he know all along.



That's my question. Any answer must be supported by Scripture and not how we define who God is. Scripture must define who God is.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Can an almighty God choose not to know certain things until they occur leaving the choice up to man? And man's choice would certainly NOT catch God by surprise. Are things knowledge when they come to be or before they come to be and God has chosen to work within this time frame dealing with man?

These questions always have fascinated me...
Or can God know all things, including what man will chose by free will (his choice as you say)

Why would I want to limit the power of God?


How can God prophesy and keep Mans free choice in tact. Unless he knew what man would freely chose.

The issues I think are great if we think God did not know..