The Promises through the righteousness of faith!

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M

masmpg

Guest
I know what you are trying to say, but punishment isn't the best choice of words. That's what is throwing other people off. Martyrdom, persecution, sufferings, poverty, etc aren't a punishment from God. Punishment from God would be a judgement or correction from God. To be punished by God would imply that the person has sinned. An example of biblical punishment would be Aaron and Miriam being stricken with leprosy for a season. None of the examples you listed were men that suffered because of sin. Martyrdom ( as some of your examples suffered) is the highest honor a Christian can receive. It's Christ counting us worthy to join in his suffering. I think your point was that many Christians had tough lives and suffered because God used them to reform his church. I think you are making the case that not all Christians will be fortunate to live a financially prosperous life and may endure suffering for the gospel. That I agree with completely.
I agree with you but still punishment can be used here because punishment is what is used when we do wrong. God does punish His people in a way that the severity should be considered punishment. Look at what Israel did all through their history. God punished them severely. Other words used could be admonish, chastise, reprove, rebuke. David was punished, Moses was punished for their sins.

You are right that the martyrs were not punished by God. They were extremely blessed, but man thought they were punishing them, as more Christians were coming to Christ because of the blood of their testimony.

The Laodicean condition is severely punished by God as being depicted as "spued out of the mouth of God" what could be worse than that. If the church does not apply the solution to that problem their punishment will be eternal.
 
Aug 15, 2009
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I thought you were going to quote scriptures to proof your argument! Just siting that this or that didn't have it, makes no point. The whole bible is full of passages that speak of us having wealth. Abraham, David, Solomon etc were rich!!
In fact the Lord Himself taught much about wealth(positively) during His earthly ministry!
Father God is looking for a matured believer who understands the purpose of wealth so as to entrust him with wealth for the running of His Kingdom!
You can only get what you are most persuaded off remember!!
Translation..... You don't have wealth 'cause you're not spiritually mature enough to handle it.
Jesus never taught wealth was promised to every "mature" believer.

BTW, you just insulted every apostle & every laborer that traveled with the apostles of the NT & called them immature, 'cause they didn't have wealth. So..... are you more mature than them?

You're asking for scriptural evidence against it? It is known that what 'isn't' in scripture can be a great an evidence than what 'is'. For instance, the phrase "I would that you would prosper & be in health, even as your soul prospers" isn't even a church doctrine. It's the only verse that says such, & it was to an individual. Nothing else. Peter's & Andrew's business? Before he was saved. Matthew's wealth? Before he was saved. When Matthew quit his job, his money ran out.

Prosperity doctrine is Satan's inspiration. Period.
 
Aug 15, 2009
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hey look at this, Jesus, Paul, Barnabas etc had money!!! else how do you think they carried out their ministries?I can proof that with scriptures!!
Then dear, you need to be quoting them. How is it you can speak blessings into existence, but can't use it on this site for all the needs here? Like many say..... go, & run the hospitals & nursing homes outta business!
Don't get me wrong here, i am completely against those whose preaching is money oriented only! Those who sell God's gift for money! They are those who have missed out on the purpose of wealth; and when the purpose of something is not understood, abuse is inevitable!!
The TV preachers will have a little "commercial" showing what their "ministry" does, but it isn't a drop in the bucket compared to their income. They're not tithing, that's for sure. If they were, 3rd world countries would be blessed on their tithes alone!
They don't practice "freely you have been given, freely give". If they did they would be living in a modest surburban house. The price of one Rolls Royce or a Bentley could feed a 3rd world community for 5 years!

Like I said before in another post; The problem with our Father is that He doesn't want to give wealth to any of His children who has not yet understood the purpose of money in the hands of a believer!! He doesn't mind His children possessing wealth! He minds wealth possessing them!!

Oh, that's a problem? It's God's fault? So God thought the Apostle Paul couldn't be trusted with wealth, but the televangelists can?
 
M

masmpg

Guest
I thought you were going to quote scriptures to proof your argument! Just siting that this or that didn't have it, makes no point. The whole bible is full of passages that speak of us having wealth. Abraham, David, Solomon etc were rich!!

The most popular bible characters had wealth, but out of the hundreds of bible characters which are involved with the writing, living, and carrying out of God's word you can count all the rich characters on one hand. You mentioned Abraham, David, Solomon, I will ad Moses and Paul. We might consider Isaac, Jacob, Joseph too, but they inherited what they got from Abraham. What I am getting at is the fact that even Jesus lived in extreme poverty, and the verse that proves it is Matthew:8:20: "And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." Jesus didn't even have a house to live in. Jesus is our example in ALL things. He is out ONLY pattern to imitate. Certainly the rich characters in the bible did support the ministry, as we read about Abraham giving tithes to Melchizedek king of salem. Even throughout the new testament we read scriptures like this, Matthew:19:29: "And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life." When Jesus teaches, ALL His lessons are spiritual, He is referring to spiritual blessings, and believe me the spiritual blessings are enormous when we live Jesus life by faith.

BUT here is the crux of the biscuit. What did Jesus say to the rich young ruler??? Luke:18:22: "Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me." Or how about this one, Matthew:19:24: "And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." To most people riches are a curse. IF the church were actually Jesus church there would be nobody starving to death. Jesus said we will always have the poor with us, but not the starving to death. The poor are the great test for those who have the means to help them. It was never intended for governments to give handouts to the needy.

In fact the Lord Himself taught much about wealth(positively) during His earthly ministry!

Not necessarily. Please find one verse where Jesus spoke positively about gaining wealth. Quite contrary is the fact that it will be almost impossible for a rich person to enter heaven as quoted above from Matthew 19:24. The reason for poverty and adversity is so we can constantly realize our need and do what Paul did whet he wrote in 1Corinthians:15:31: "I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily." We, as Christians MUST die daily to the worldliness and sin through confession and repentance daily.

Father God is looking for a matured believer who understands the purpose of wealth so as to entrust him with wealth for the running of His Kingdom!

IF we follow the true Christians throughout time we will find that faith in Christ ONLY grows during adversity and more so during persecution. Never does faith grow during prosperity. The church might seem to grow but this is a facade. Most who attend church during times of peace are trying to have a feel good religion which does not exist. we are told by Paul in 2Corinthians:7:10: "For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death." The ONLY way to Christ is through a broken and contrite heart. Read what David said about it in Psalms:34:18: "The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit."Psalms:51:17: "The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." God only saves those of a contrite spirit, and a broken heart. When we are rich we have no need of repentance, we have all we need. Like John wrote in revelation about the Laodicean condition, which is the condition of God's church today, Revelation:3:15: "I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:" God's people today know not their condition. We believe we are increased with goods, and have need of nothing. This does not only apply to worldly wealth but spiritual knowledge especially. Bibles are freely distributed almost the world over, and we are still here. Jesus said in Matthew 14:14 that the gospel will be preached in all the world then He will come. God is waiting for us, and professed Christianity (churchianity) is claiming to be waiting for something else like some falsehood called the "rapture". If we are waiting for this rapture to take place we will be lost because when it does happen, all Christians must be ready. And by ready I mean like the disciples were on the day of pentecost Acts chapter 1&2. Study that and understand the unity needed before Jesus can come and take His church home. Like Paul wrote in 1Corinthians:1:10: "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment." The only way this principle is lived up to is by applying the solution to the Laodicean problem and that is Revelation:3:18: "I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see." This has nothing to do with worldly wealth. The gold tried in the fire is the faith that works by love, and cometh by hearing the word of God. The white raiment is the righteousness of Christ. And the anointing salve is the Holy Spirit without which we cannot understand any of this. That is why it is so hard for a rich person to enter the kingdom. I can supply bible verses for these definitions if interested.



Revelation:3:19: "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.." We MUST stop letting our pride get offended because the Lord uses His instruments to reprove us. Reproof shows that we love each other as long as it is done in the spirit of love.
 
Oct 16, 2016
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Just had a goofy thought reading along here. (I get them alot, lol)

If all the rich sold all they had, and gave the money to the poor, then wouldn't they be poor, and the poor, rich, at least some of them, or is everyone supposed to have all things in common, and I guess, equal in income and assets and holdings like a socialist society only without government control?

Or is that bible passage, about the rich young ruler, as I've long suspected, misunderstood and misapplied quite often?

Another thing, why is there so much complaint about some ppl being rich?

Aren't we supposed to be content in whatever state we're in, and not worry about another man's wealth so much?

Don't rich ppl hire workers so they can make a living, and give to, and even build charities, and do all kinds of things with their riches?

Sure, some may be greedy and self-serving, but aren't there many who do good things with their wealth, perhaps behind the scenes?

Seems like ppl seem to judge others without knowing all the facts, just basing opinions on how much money a person has. I wonder if they also cast a downward judgement on those they might consider too poor? Freely ye have received, freely give.
 
E

eph610

Guest
I thought you were going to quote scriptures to proof your argument! Just siting that this or that didn't have it, makes no point. The whole bible is full of passages that speak of us having wealth. Abraham, David, Solomon etc were rich!!

The most popular bible characters had wealth, but out of the hundreds of bible characters which are involved with the writing, living, and carrying out of God's word you can count all the rich characters on one hand. You mentioned Abraham, David, Solomon, I will ad Moses and Paul. We might consider Isaac, Jacob, Joseph too, but they inherited what they got from Abraham. What I am getting at is the fact that even Jesus lived in extreme poverty, and the verse that proves it is Matthew:8:20: "And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." Jesus didn't even have a house to live in. Jesus is our example in ALL things. He is out ONLY pattern to imitate. Certainly the rich characters in the bible did support the ministry, as we read about Abraham giving tithes to Melchizedek king of salem. Even throughout the new testament we read scriptures like this, Matthew:19:29: "And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life." When Jesus teaches, ALL His lessons are spiritual, He is referring to spiritual blessings, and believe me the spiritual blessings are enormous when we live Jesus life by faith.

BUT here is the crux of the biscuit. What did Jesus say to the rich young ruler??? Luke:18:22: "Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me." Or how about this one, Matthew:19:24: "And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." To most people riches are a curse. IF the church were actually Jesus church there would be nobody starving to death. Jesus said we will always have the poor with us, but not the starving to death. The poor are the great test for those who have the means to help them. It was never intended for governments to give handouts to the needy.

In fact the Lord Himself taught much about wealth(positively) during His earthly ministry!

Not necessarily. Please find one verse where Jesus spoke positively about gaining wealth. Quite contrary is the fact that it will be almost impossible for a rich person to enter heaven as quoted above from Matthew 19:24. The reason for poverty and adversity is so we can constantly realize our need and do what Paul did whet he wrote in 1Corinthians:15:31: "I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily." We, as Christians MUST die daily to the worldliness and sin through confession and repentance daily.

Father God is looking for a matured believer who understands the purpose of wealth so as to entrust him with wealth for the running of His Kingdom!

IF we follow the true Christians throughout time we will find that faith in Christ ONLY grows during adversity and more so during persecution. Never does faith grow during prosperity. The church might seem to grow but this is a facade. Most who attend church during times of peace are trying to have a feel good religion which does not exist. we are told by Paul in 2Corinthians:7:10: "For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death." The ONLY way to Christ is through a broken and contrite heart. Read what David said about it in Psalms:34:18: "The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit."Psalms:51:17: "The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." God only saves those of a contrite spirit, and a broken heart. When we are rich we have no need of repentance, we have all we need. Like John wrote in revelation about the Laodicean condition, which is the condition of God's church today, Revelation:3:15: "I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:" God's people today know not their condition. We believe we are increased with goods, and have need of nothing. This does not only apply to worldly wealth but spiritual knowledge especially. Bibles are freely distributed almost the world over, and we are still here. Jesus said in Matthew 14:14 that the gospel will be preached in all the world then He will come. God is waiting for us, and professed Christianity (churchianity) is claiming to be waiting for something else like some falsehood called the "rapture". If we are waiting for this rapture to take place we will be lost because when it does happen, all Christians must be ready. And by ready I mean like the disciples were on the day of pentecost Acts chapter 1&2. Study that and understand the unity needed before Jesus can come and take His church home. Like Paul wrote in 1Corinthians:1:10: "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment." The only way this principle is lived up to is by applying the solution to the Laodicean problem and that is Revelation:3:18: "I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see." This has nothing to do with worldly wealth. The gold tried in the fire is the faith that works by love, and cometh by hearing the word of God. The white raiment is the righteousness of Christ. And the anointing salve is the Holy Spirit without which we cannot understand any of this. That is why it is so hard for a rich person to enter the kingdom. I can supply bible verses for these definitions if interested.



Revelation:3:19: "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.." We MUST stop letting our pride get offended because the Lord uses His instruments to reprove us. Reproof shows that we love each other as long as it is done in the spirit of love.

Jesus himself had several women in Luke 8 that financially provided for his ministry....likewise it would be wise for you to study out trades in Bible times....A carpenter was a very lucrative trade, as was fisherman as was tent maker...

In Luke 5 it took 2 boats to bring in the great catch of fish....this catch likely financed Peter's household so he could follow Jesus for 3 years....

Matt 8.20 has to do with Jesus future about the cross....not earthly riches or woe and poe...if that were the case, he would be providing a hypocritical approach to his message on money...

I you think Jesus was destitute, you should study deeper...
 
M

masmpg

Guest
Just had a goofy thought reading along here. (I get them alot, lol)

If all the rich sold all they had, and gave the money to the poor, then wouldn't they be poor, and the poor, rich, at least some of them, or is everyone supposed to have all things in common, and I guess, equal in income and assets and holdings like a socialist society only without government control?

Or is that bible passage, about the rich young ruler, as I've long suspected, misunderstood and misapplied quite often?

I believe that God's government is socialistic, even communistic. You can tell by the way the Israelites wondered through the wilderness. The difference is that the God will be the keeper of the money pot instead of committees of corrupt politicians in the form of governments.

Another thing, why is there so much complaint about some ppl being rich?
Aren't we supposed to be content in whatever state we're in, and not worry about another man's wealth so much?

That's right. Being content is the most important aspect of all these lessons, but also not relying on wealth, or putting wealth in the place of our spiritual life. We are told that "the love of money" is the root of all evil, not money itself. We all need money to get by but the contentment principle is important.

Don't rich ppl hire workers so they can make a living, and give to, and even build charities, and do all kinds of things with their riches?

That is what it is all about. Poor people are a test for the rich. BUT we are not to muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn, nor are we to like James said James:5:4: "Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth." All wages must be fair.

Sure, some may be greedy and self-serving, but aren't there many who do good things with their wealth, perhaps behind the scenes?

Of course some, like the man whose house I live in, who is a doctor and he is often broke because he contributes SECRETLY to many charities. Like Jesus said in Matthew:6:1-3: "Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:"

Seems like ppl seem to judge others without knowing all the facts, just basing opinions on how much money a person has. I wonder if they also cast a downward judgement on those they might consider too poor? Freely ye have received, freely give.
AMEN!

I doo not understand this site. I guess it is being hacked too.
 
M

masmpg

Guest
You said "I you think Jesus was destitute, you should study deeper..." Without boasting I will say that the Holy Spirit first lead me to study His word 50 years ago.

You said "
In Luke 5 it took 2 boats to bring in the great catch of fish....this catch likely financed Peter's household so he could follow Jesus for 3 years...." Why did they catch that many fish? You said that fishing was a very lucrative business??? Why did they "toil all night" without anything? The reason they caught so many fish when Jesus told them to drop the net is because Jesus tested them to see if they were going to remain fishermen, or fishers of men. Certainly Jesus provided for their families.

About the cross??? I have no idea what you are referring to here. You have no scripture to support your opinions, which sounds to me like pro kenneth copeland the antichrist. Jesus said in
Luke:9:23: "And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me." If we do not deny our self DAILY we will not be true followers of Jesus. If we do not hate father mother sister brother for His sake we will not have eternal life. You are the one that must pray, and ask the Holy Spirit to guide you into all truth (John 14:26 & 16:13) and stop relying on hypocrite evangelists and lying pulpits.
 
M

masmpg

Guest
Actually I was about 7 when I started reading God's holy word the KJV bible.

I do use the bible to prove all IMPORTANT principles. Opinions are useless when it comes to salvation. What I know has very little to do with what God reveals to me.

I do not intend to argue here. You stated that I need to study more...I just responded by telling you how long I have been following the Holy Spirit, up and down throughout my life time.
 
E

eph610

Guest
Actually I was about 7 when I started reading God's holy word the KJV bible.

I do use the bible to prove all IMPORTANT principles. Opinions are useless when it comes to salvation. What I know has very little to do with what God reveals to me.

I do not intend to argue here. You stated that I need to study more...I just responded by telling you how long I have been following the Holy Spirit, up and down throughout my life time.
PS:On top of that your one of those KJO guys...no wonder you boast and gloat....
 
M

masmpg

Guest
I do not believe the Holy Spirit works through translations that have to be updated by man every 7-8 years and delete 17 verses, as of the latest update. Prayerfully you will consider this. 17 verses completely omitted from the new 2011 version NIV. This is a satanic counterfeit. For every truth in the bible satan has a counterfeit. For anybody to find a translation to interpret any of the bible to their opinion is not allowing the Holy Spirit to do it for us. I have read comments here where the commentor uses many different translations to support their ideals. So where is the bottom line? Unless God's people are living up to what Paul wrote in 1Corinthians:1:10: "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment." There will be no resurrection. Jesus is coming, no matter how or when, for a united church body. Acts 1&2 are good examples of what it takes to actually receive the Holy Spirit. Believe me His professed followers are far from any of it.