Of These two Choices, What do you Believe is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth?

[1LonelyKnight]

What is the foundation but the apostles.

What is the cornerstone (head of the corner) but Jesus.

Paul likened James and John and Peter as "pillars of the church".

What is the 'church' but an Ekklesia of called out lively stones.

Who is this 'root' of David (Jesse) but Jesus.

Who is the vine but Jesus and -
who are the branches but believers and followers.

and what is this all based upon ...

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. All things are made by him and for him, and without him nothing is made that is made...

and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us ...

I AM the Way, the TRUTH and the Life apart from which no one comes to, or comes to be - authority

You shall know the TRUTH and the TRUTH shall say you free

 

[miknik5]

Is the Bible or the Church the Pillar and Foundation of Truth?

The TRUTH does not contradict THE TRUTH and THE SPIRIT of TRUTH leads us to all TRUTH
You wanted a clearer answer but your question in and of itself is very revealing

 

[Mindee]

The TRUTH does not contradict THE TRUTH and THE SPIRIT of TRUTH leads us to all TRUTH
You wanted a clearer answer but your question in and of itself is very revealing

I'm saving you some time. Here is the answer.
1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

 

[royalscot]

Is the Bible or the Church the Pillar and Foundation of Truth?

god is the pillar of everything, without father god. you have no bible, or church. or humans(to keep it short)etc

 

[1LonelyKnight]

I'm saving you some time. Here is the answer.
1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

As usual the surrounding verses provide important context:

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

 

[Adstar]

Is the Bible or the Church the Pillar and Foundation of Truth?

The Bible is the foundation when it is read with the Holy Spirit guiding one into understanding..

 

[RobbyEarl]

To the OP, it is neither one. The pillar is Christ and Him Crucified. It is the theme of the entire bible and nothing else. Amen

 

[wattie]

Okay now.. come on people !

The 1 Timothy 3:15 scripture that is quoted by others in this thread is obviously the direct reference that has the church being the 'pillar and foundation of the truth'

This is irrefutable.

So therefore.. if you believe scripture.. then you must accept that 'the church' is the pillar and ground of the truth.

Can't scoot around this... this is the direct reference.

Where I question the OP tho .. is in the seperation..between the church and the bible.. because as I posted earlier.
Even though the direct reference in scripture to the pillar and ground of the truth is not actually the bible...

The bible can also be 'the pillar and foundation of the truth'.. and that would contradict nothing.

Why seperate them?

 

[garee]

Okay now.. come on people !

The 1 Timothy 3:15 scripture that is quoted by others in this thread is obviously the direct reference that has the church being the 'pillar and foundation of the truth'

This is irrefutable.

So therefore.. if you believe scripture.. then you must accept that 'the church' is the pillar and ground of the truth.

Can't scoot around this... this is the direct reference.

Where I question the OP tho .. is in the seperation..between the church and the bible.. because as I posted earlier.
Even though the direct reference in scripture to the pillar and ground of the truth is not actually the bible...

The bible can also be 'the pillar and foundation of the truth'.. and that would contradict nothing.

Why seperate them?

We separate them because the things of God are not the things of sinful men.

Its why there was a veil in the old order to separate the Holy things of God from the unclean things of men.

Why would you think Christ our husband is the bride, the church, as one entity?

1Ti 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

There is not one thought in that verse above in respect to the things of men. The house is of God just as the pillar and ground of His truth (not of the church) is of our living God.

It is all in respect to the things of our living God.

It really simply, God’s house is modified by the word church, of God (not of men). And our living God is modified by the phrase; pillar and ground of God’s truth( not of men).

The things of God are not those of men. They clearly offend God who not share His glory with the clay He is forming Christ in. We walk by faith and not by sight.

Those who would try and seduce us to believe we do need a man to teach us, are seeking after another gospel, another christ, called the antichrist.

The Catholics like the apostate Jew have a habit of turning things upside down and making it about the things of men according to their own flesh ,and not the work of the Holy Spirit according to His Spirit . This is somehow or other as if our living God had no understanding to offer us.

Isaiah 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

The question I would ask is, do we need a man to teach us?

 

[wattie]

We separate them because the things of God are not the things of sinful men.

Its why there was a veil in the old order to separate the Holy things of God from the unclean things of men.

Why would you think Christ our husband is the bride, the church, as one entity?

1Ti 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

There is not one thought in that verse above in respect to the things of men. The house is of God just as the pillar and ground of His truth (not of the church) is of our living God.

It is all in respect to the things of our living God.

It really simply, God’s house is modified by the word church, of God (not of men). And our living God is modified by the phrase; pillar and ground of God’s truth( not of men).

The things of God are not those of men. They clearly offend God who not share His glory with the clay He is forming Christ in. We walk by faith and not by sight.

Those who would try and seduce us to believe we do need a man to teach us, are seeking after another gospel, another christ, called the antichrist.

The Catholics like the apostate Jew have a habit of turning things upside down and making it about the things of men according to their own flesh ,and not the work of the Holy Spirit according to His Spirit . This is somehow or other as if our living God had no understanding to offer us.

Isaiah 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

The question I would ask is, do we need a man to teach us?

Oh sorry.. I don't mean that the church and the bible are not seperate. They are definitely seperate (although completely associated).

What I am meaning is.. it is obvious the scriptural reference to the pillar and ground of the truth is the 1 Timothy 3:15 reference.

If you believe the bible.. this cannot be denied.

The bible can also be called this.

So BOTH are really the pillar and foundation of the truth.

That's what I am meaning.

Repeating myself.. !

 

[masmpg]

2Timothy:3:16: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

2Peter:1:20&21: "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

I must quote these verses here. Without God's word the KJV bible we would not have a Christian church.

To use the bible to define what is the pillar of the church puts the bible in the first place above the church.

Jesus sent the Comforter to teach us all things, bring to remembrance whatever He said, to guide us into all truth, to reprove the world of sin and righteousness and judgement John 14-16. If everyone understood John 14-17 there would be only one denomination and one translation of God's holy word the KJV bible.

My understanding has little to nothing to do with what God reveals to me. IF we let the Holy Spirit work through us He will reveal all truth He wants us to have at that moment. We are told in 1John:2:27: "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." To attend church for fellowship and to get a spiritual shot in the arm is good, but to rely on any pastor, evangelist, preacher, teacher, priest, or whole denomination will leave us very disappointed. We are told to study to show ourselves approved unto God, but what is it we are to study? Church doctrine created by the church "fathers"? Are we to put the interpretation of God's word on man in the form of a church? We are admonished to do as the Bereans did Acts 17:11. When they heard the word they went home and studied it out to make certain what was taught was the truth. We all should do this. Far too many people who profess the Name of Jesus rely totally on their church or denomination to lead them to heaven, and that will never happen. No denomination has a monopoly on salvation. God has people in all denominations.

Back to your question, is it the church or God's holy word the KJV bible??? If the church is the pillar then which one? There are far too many denominational differences to rely on any denomination. The word of God is our ONLY salvation. It is the ONLY place we can find the true gospel of Jesus. The first true apostolic church had to be all of one mind, in the same place before they could receive the Holy Spirit. Same goes for God's church today. We, as Christians must all be in unity with the truth, the truth that each of us have been given by the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit is leading everyone will be in unity of faith and doctrine.

 

[CS1]

Is the Bible or the Church the Pillar and Foundation of Truth?

The Church was built on The Word of God this is the foundation through Jesus Christ died, buried, and rose again.

 

[1LonelyKnight]

Okay now.. come on people !

The 1 Timothy 3:15 scripture that is quoted by others in this thread is obviously the direct reference that has the church being the 'pillar and foundation of the truth'

This is irrefutable.

So therefore.. if you believe scripture.. then you must accept that 'the church' is the pillar and ground of the truth.

Can't scoot around this... this is the direct reference.

Where I question the OP tho .. is in the seperation..between the church and the bible.. because as I posted earlier.
Even though the direct reference in scripture to the pillar and ground of the truth is not actually the bible...

The bible can also be 'the pillar and foundation of the truth'.. and that would contradict nothing.

Why seperate them?

The issue then becomes "what is the church"?

The Ekklesia (church) is a gathering of called out believers. They are rooted and grounded in the scriptures to the point of not needing the rites and rituals of 'churchianity'. Paul in adjacent passages does go on to describe his view of church leaders and members. The term presbyter tends to go to those leaders of the Ekklesia.

Remember Paul was also charged as a ringleader of a sect called he Nazarenes and confessed to teaching a system called The Way. A study on these is revealing.

When salvation is such a critical issue, personal understanding and commitment are critical. This closes the door to preacher worship, projecting onto a preacher and Lordship salvation. Today (as then) there is/was a false approach to this responsibility that leaves many on shallow ground.

This means that the pillar and foundation are made up of lively stones Who are hardened to the world system and cemented together in unity of understanding in, faith and commitment to the teachings of scripture.

 

[wattie]

The issue then becomes "what is the church"?

The Ekklesia (church) is a gathering of called out believers. They are rooted and grounded in the scriptures to the point of not needing the rites and rituals of 'churchianity'. Paul in adjacent passages does go on to describe his view of church leaders and members. The term presbyter tends to go to those leaders of the Ekklesia.

Remember Paul was also charged as a ringleader of a sect called he Nazarenes and confessed to teaching a system called The Way. A study on these is revealing.

When salvation is such a critical issue, personal understanding and commitment are critical. This closes the door to preacher worship, projecting onto a preacher and Lordship salvation. Today (as then) there is/was a false approach to this responsibility that leaves many on shallow ground.

This means that the pillar and foundation are made up of lively stones Who are hardened to the world system and cemented together in unity of understanding in, faith and commitment to the teachings of scripture.

Yeah.. this is where I wonder what the OP is meaning by 'church'

Like you have typed.. it is the ecclessia.. called out assembly/congregation.

Thayer wrote that in all the Greek lexicons and all the writings about church.. ecclessia.. there is NOT ONE occasion where it means a 'universal, invisible' entity.

Another scholar wrote that if 'church' ever loses the idea of assembling, congregating, meeting etc.. then it cannot be called 'church'

And yeah.. I know.. i know.. someone will always say 'but WE are the church'

Show me scripture.. where the church is EVER unassembled and invisible. Because that is what you would be saying by calling every believer.. NOW 'the church'.

It would be a contradiction of the very definition of what 'church' is.. as an assembly and congregation.. local and visible.

Every believer will ONE DAY be in the Heavenly Jerusalem church.. but this is 'yet, future' and it will STILL be 'local and visible'

There is no reference to 'church' in the bible of an entity that is not 'local, visible'

It is either local and visible now.. or will be local and visible even when all believers one day become one church in the Heavenly Jerusalem.

Look at 1 Corinthians 12..

What is this a picture of? None of the language used in this passage are describing a church that is not 'local, visible'

Anyway.. not sure of what you actually believe yourself is 'the church' aside from knowing it is a called out assembly, but this is a bugbear I have.

 

[TMS]

A church isn't a building it is the people. If the people don't agree on fundamental beliefs than they aren't united and a church divided falls. There are many denominations today that have different beliefs so which church has the truth.

Jesus should be the corner stone and sola scripture should be a fundamental teaching.
If the church is built on the word of God it is built on the truth.

 

[garee]

Oh sorry.. I don't mean that the church and the bible are not seperate. They are definitely seperate (although completely associated).

What I am meaning is.. it is obvious the scriptural reference to the pillar and ground of the truth is the 1 Timothy 3:15 reference.

If you believe the bible.. this cannot be denied.

The bible can also be called this.

So BOTH are really the pillar and foundation of the truth.

That's what I am meaning.

Repeating myself.. !

What is obvious is they are both of God(the bride of Christ and the foundation God's truth. not after the things of men.

I would suggest the word of God in respect to Christ the Holy anoiting Spirit of God (the husband of the bride) and the Bible are not separate .They are things of God after no man. While the private interpretations as oral traditions of men as things of men are not separate.They make up the bride

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.2Pe 1:20

Failure to separate things of God from those of men was the downfall of the Jews. Christ called it another gospel .

The question I would ask is, do we need a man to teach us?

 

[garee]

Show me scripture.. where the church is EVER unassembled and invisible. Because that is what you would be saying by calling every believer.. NOW 'the church'.

It would be a contradiction of the very definition of what 'church' is.. as an assembly and congregation.. local and visible.

Where two or three are gathered together under His name or authority (the scriptures)Christ, the anointing Holy Spirit of God our promised teacher,comforter and guide is there. Two is the number He assigned to the church from the beginning. Out of one creature He made two.

Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

We walk by faith "the unseen voice of God) not by sight after our own religious experiences . It is the reason of the fall. God who has no form(He is not a man as us) spoke to Adam and Eve in a hope they would obey His voice.

Satan who also has not form put his words in to the creatures mouth .And said did God really say you will not die. They performed the will of the creature seen violating the commandment. God did not want them or us to walk by sight after our own experiences .That would be like the Pagan religions of the world . They demand an visible image to put their faith in.

Christians I believe walk by the faith of Christ, the anointing Holy Spirit of God not seen . Again not by sight after our own experiences.

2Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

 

[garee]

Anyway.. not sure of what you actually believe yourself is 'the church' aside from knowing it is a called out assembly, but this is a bugbear I have.

They are not called out by the church. But rather by the voice of her husband, Christ (not seen)

 

[masmpg]

A church isn't a building it is the people. If the people don't agree on fundamental beliefs than they aren't united and a church divided falls. There are many denominations today that have different beliefs so which church has the truth.

Jesus should be the corner stone and sola scripture should be a fundamental teaching.
If the church is built on the word of God it is built on the truth.

This is the bottom line and what I stated above.

God's church is comprised of TRUE Christians from ALL denominations. When the second angel of revelation 14 sounds the alarm to "come out of her my people" then will be a uniting of the body aside from denominational boundaries. Many doctrines are not important enough to stress over but there are a few fundamental doctrines which are not negotiable, and only those who know and live the principles revealed in these doctrines will comprise God's church which will be called out of babylon.

 

[masmpg]

The issue then becomes "what is the church"?

The Ekklesia (church) is a gathering of called out believers. They are rooted and grounded in the scriptures to the point of not needing the rites and rituals of 'churchianity'. Paul in adjacent passages does go on to describe his view of church leaders and members. The term presbyter tends to go to those leaders of the Ekklesia.

Remember Paul was also charged as a ringleader of a sect called he Nazarenes and confessed to teaching a system called The Way. A study on these is revealing.

When salvation is such a critical issue, personal understanding and commitment are critical. This closes the door to preacher worship, projecting onto a preacher and Lordship salvation. Today (as then) there is/was a false approach to this responsibility that leaves many on shallow ground.

This means that the pillar and foundation are made up of lively stones Who are hardened to the world system and cemented together in unity of understanding in, faith and commitment to the teachings of scripture.

I like this. "preacher worship" is the norm today. Many attend a denomination just because their family has for generations.

Salvation is the most basic and foundational doctrines that every Christian MUST have correct.

Sola Scriptura is our ONLY safety. There is not a pastor, preacher, teacher, priest not whole denomination that will save anybody. We all will appear before the judgment seat alone to by judged by our works. We are not saved by our works but we certainly will be judged by them. Works and obedience are the fruit of grace, not our access to them.