Romans 9-11. Do Jews Have Salvation?

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Jun 11, 2016
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#21
Amen brother, if we don't understand this we will always have to give our own interpretations of verses like this:

Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Israel was never about DNA but about who is willing to turn away from the world back to God (shuv)
We cannot say that "Israel was never about DNA"

We have an Old Covenant and a New Covenant. Under the New Covenant DNA is totally irrelevant. Under the Old Covenant DNA was relevant.

When Paul was writing the Old Covenant had not yet passed away.

Jesus came to the physical descendants of Israel.
 
Jun 11, 2016
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#22
Romans 9:KJV
6 ¶Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:


When He says all Israel will be saved He is taking about the true Israel of God...He is not talking about the genetic Israel who are physical descendants of Israel... Spiritual Israel will be saved.. Carnal Israel which is not Israel will be lost..

PS: Clarification... Some people who are of Physical Israel are also members of Spiritual Israel... Paul was one of them :D

And yet 6 verses earlier he has called all Jews Israelites:

[FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]"They are Israelites"[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

Thus creating two definitions of an Israelite.


[/FONT]
 
Jan 25, 2015
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#23
We cannot say that "Israel was never about DNA"

We have an Old Covenant and a New Covenant. Under the New Covenant DNA is totally irrelevant. Under the Old Covenant DNA was relevant.

When Paul was writing the Old Covenant had not yet passed away.

Jesus came to the physical descendants of Israel.
Israel was never about DNA, not even at Mt Sinai. You can read it yourself but there were other nations present at the mountain when God gave His commandments. Even then you could become part of Israel if you were not born in one of the tribes.

When Jacob gave the blessing to Ephraim he told him he would become a multitude of nations.
 
Jan 25, 2015
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#24
Jesus came to the physical descendants of Israel.
If we believe this, we will also believe that we are God's plan B. I am certainly not plan B but was part of plan A since day one.
 
Jun 11, 2016
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#25
Israel was never about DNA, not even at Mt Sinai. You can read it yourself but there were other nations present at the mountain when God gave His commandments. Even then you could become part of Israel if you were not born in one of the tribes.

When Jacob gave the blessing to Ephraim he told him he would become a multitude of nations.
I agree partially.

But all the tribes kept genealogical records, and two of the gospels start with long genealogies.

DNA was not not an issue.

I agree totally that God's intention was always to create a Holy People, regardless of DNA. But to say DNA was never an issue is wrong.

E.G. The Priesthood - passed to Levitical descendants, and then the descendants of a particular Levite, Phinehas.
 
Jan 25, 2015
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#26
And yet 6 verses earlier he has called all Jews Israelites:

"They are Israelites"

Thus creating two definitions of an Israelite.

Not all Israelites are Jews but all Jews are Israelites :confused: :)
 
Jun 11, 2016
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#28
Yes, in the physical :)

Oh boy, Romans is tough....I am scared to say something stupid...Can I get a witness?
 
Jun 11, 2016
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#29
Yup. Agreed. We are all sons of Adam, and Paul also talks about this genealogy
 

birdie

Senior Member
Sep 16, 2014
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#32
Romans chapters 9-11 makes it seem as though Jews do not have salvation. Then suddenly one verse, Romans 11.26 turns everything upside down for me when it says all Israel shall be saved. What does this mean? People who denied Jesus have salvation anyway because they were Jews or does the word Israel refer to Gentiles who believe in Jesus? Or does it mean something else?
This is a good question Utah, because so many people misread the Bible on this point, many of them in this forum. They think that all Israel being saved means that everyone from a cultural Jewish background as a political nation on the map will be saved in some end times scenario. Not at all. They are misreading verses. Paul tells us who Israel is, even in the very same book of Romans: "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:". One reason for the error is a casual reading of these verses:"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." The word "so" in this statement does not mean "then" as so many would-be theologians say. The word "so" means "in this manner, in this way". Go look it up in the concordance and you will see this. And what manner is that? Exactly as the chapter has been describing. In the manner of grace and not works. In the manner of a remnant of both cultural Jews and cultural Gentiles. If the word "so" meant "then", then we would read: and then all Israel will be saved. But instead we have to read: And in this manner will all Israel be saved. In the manner of being saved by grace. The Israel being spoken of is the Jew who is one inwardly. The verse is saying that the true believers (Israel means everyone who is a true believer from any background) will be saved in this manner. Not by THEN a whole cultural and political nation being saved. The verse then continues: "There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." This means that Jesus comes from heaven and turns people who are then true believers (Jacob is a parable word describing all true believers from any background) away from ungodliness to Christ. Then verse explains that this is God's new covenant in Christ, namely, that the deliverer (Christ) takes away people's sins. It is explaining that Jesus has already come from heaven and set up this new covenant.

Romans 11 explains in earlier verses that cultural Jews are not prevented from accepting Christ, else Paul, who was a cultural Jew would not be able to be saved. Rather, only a part of them is saved, not all of them. It is the same with the Gentiles. Paul warns Gentiles not to get puffed up and think that because they are cultural Gentiles, they are guaranteed salvation. He does not say that he will graft back all cultural Jews. He is merely warning Gentiles to consider what God is able to do.

People also base this notion of all cultural Israel suddenly being saved in an end-time scenario from verses from the Old Testament (which they see as prophecy about cultural Israel). What they are refusing to acknowledge is that these are prophecies pertaining to spiritual Israel. They do not understand that the Bible is written in parable form, as it is written: "Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth. I will open my mouth in a parable". Again, it is written: "But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples." You can take their advice and their understanding but it will not be anything real.
 
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Jun 11, 2016
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#33
Romans will baffle people for several reasons.

Firstly, Paul is running with three different definitions of what an Israelite is, (at least).

Secondly, he is writing while two covenants are in force, both old and new.



Paul defines Jew in Chapter 2, but that does not mean it is the only definition he is using, else how else could he also say:

[FONT=&quot]There will be anguish and distress for everyone who does evil, the Jew first[/FONT]
 
E

eph610

Guest
#34
Romans chapters 9-11 makes it seem as though Jews do not have salvation. Then suddenly one verse, Romans 11.26 turns everything upside down for me when it says all Israel shall be saved. What does this mean? People who denied Jesus have salvation anyway because they were Jews or does the word Israel refer to Gentiles who believe in Jesus? Or does it mean something else?
I think we forget...the New Covenant was made with the Jews and God, not the Gentiles and God...we were grafted into the NC, but we have not replaced the Jews as some teach....
 
E

eph610

Guest
#35
This is a good question Utah, because so many people misread the Bible on this point, many of them in this forum. They think that all Israel being saved means that everyone from a cultural Jewish background as a political nation on the map will be saved in some end times scenario. Not at all. They are misreading verses. Paul tells us who Israel is, even in the very same book of Romans: "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:". One reason for the error is a casual reading of these verses:"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." The word "so" in this statement does not mean "then" as so many would-be theologians say. The word "so" means "in this manner, in this way". Go look it up in the concordance and you will see this. And what manner is that? Exactly as the chapter has been describing. In the manner of grace and not works. In the manner of a remnant of both cultural Jews and cultural Gentiles. If the word "so" meant "then", then we would read: and then all Israel will be saved. But instead we have to read: And in this manner will all Israel be saved. In the manner of being saved by grace. The Israel being spoken of is the Jew who is one inwardly. The verse is saying that the true believers (Israel means everyone who is a true believer from any background) will be saved in this manner. Not by THEN a whole cultural and political nation being saved. The verse then continues: "There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." This means that Jesus comes from heaven and turns people who are then true believers (Jacob is a parable word describing all true believers from any background) away from ungodliness to Christ. Then verse explains that this is God's new covenant in Christ, namely, that the deliverer (Christ) takes away people's sins. It is explaining that Jesus has already come from heaven and set up this new covenant.

Romans 11 explains in earlier verses that cultural Jews are not prevented from accepting Christ, else Paul, who was a cultural Jew would not be able to be saved. Rather, only a part of them is saved, not all of them. It is the same with the Gentiles. Paul warns Gentiles not to get puffed up and think that because they are cultural Gentiles, they are guaranteed salvation. He does not say that he will graft back all cultural Jews. He is merely warning Gentiles to consider what God is able to do.

People also base this notion of all cultural Israel suddenly being saved in an end-time scenario from verses from the Old Testament (which they see as prophecy about cultural Israel). What they are refusing to acknowledge is that these are prophecies pertaining to spiritual Israel. They do not understand that the Bible is written in parable form, as it is written: "Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth. I will open my mouth in a parable". Again, it is written: "But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples." You can take their advice and their understanding but it will not be anything real.
The New Covenant was not made with everyone, it was Made with he Jews first and God.....
 
Dec 19, 2009
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#37
Romans chapters 9-11 makes it seem as though Jews do not have salvation. Then suddenly one verse, Romans 11.26 turns everything upside down for me when it says all Israel shall be saved. What does this mean? People who denied Jesus have salvation anyway because they were Jews or does the word Israel refer to Gentiles who believe in Jesus? Or does it mean something else?
If you love the Lord with all your heart, mind, and soul, and love your neighbor as yourself, I don't know why you wouldn't go to heaven.
 
E

eph610

Guest
#38
We cannot say that "Israel was never about DNA"

We have an Old Covenant and a New Covenant. Under the New Covenant DNA is totally irrelevant. Under the Old Covenant DNA was relevant.

When Paul was writing the Old Covenant had not yet passed away.

Jesus came to the physical descendants of Israel.
Did not the Old Covenant pass away when the veil was ripped when Jesus died?
 
Jun 11, 2016
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#39
It was rendered obsolete, but it wasn't finished until AD 73.


13 [FONT=&quot]In speaking of “a new covenant,” he has made the first one obsolete. And what is obsolete and growing old will soon disappear.[/FONT]
 
Jan 27, 2013
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#40
Rom 9 is paul answering the question, Has God failed (vs 6) The answer is no. Being A Jew does not guarantee anyone heaven, (a popular thought among Jews) And God did not chose Israel because their fathers were righteous people (He chose them before the nations were born) and it does not matter, Whether jew or gentile. you all saved the same way.

Rom 11 is paul letting us know. Just because Israel failed, and are blinded in part. Because they rejected God..(as a nation) There will come a day when they will repent, and the whole nation will be saved,, So do not think to highly of yourself (as Gentiles) ie, God is not done with Israel..
for the record , i am a gentile, what god dose in the future for the jewish, i have no say in it. for the record are you a jew or a gentile.

15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners;16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.Galatians 2:

clear as a bell . he who turns back etc lol babies with milk