Is all sin wilfull and deliberate?

[livingbygrace]

'We know that the law is spiritual, but I am unspritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate to do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself that do it, but it is sin living in me.
I know that nothing good lives in me that is in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do-this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
Rom7:14-20

Paul would appear to be saying here that the sin he is committing is not done willfully and deliberately.

Would we say that Paul was saved during this time he is speaking of in his life?

And if he was saved surely to Paul not all sin committed by the believer is wilfull and deliberate.

The "old man" is so integrated into us that at times is seems to work with a will of its own. We sin by habit, even though we have recieved freedom from and power over the old man. To the unredeemed, sin is their master. Though they have free will, they are born slaves, one of the great paradoxes of life.

[machew]

After you are born again, all sin is willful and deliberate. We have been given the mind of Christ and a completely new nature that is contrary to the sinful nature. Before you are born again, we are slaves to our sinful nature.

-Machew

[MaggieMye]

No. There is sin done in ignorance and sin done willfully. Both need to be repented of.
Lev 4:22 speaks of "unintentional" sin.

[livingbygrace]

Originally Posted by MaggieMye

No. There is sin done in ignorance and sin done willfully. Both need to be repented of.
Lev 4:22 speaks of "unintentional" sin.

In the verses I quoted, would you say Paul was saved at that time?
Only he knew what he was doing was sin, so it was not done in ignorance, but he also said he was doing what he didn't want to do, therefore sin still had him in it's grasp

[QuestionTime]

Originally Posted by livingbygrace

'We know that the law is spiritual, but I am unspritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate to do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself that do it, but it is sin living in me.
I know that nothing good lives in me that is in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do-this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

Watchman Nee has some really good writings on the Law of Sin.

Rom 7:
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Nee says that sin is a Law, just as gravity is a Law. It's not something we can overcome by efforts (as Paul was attempting to do). It can only be overcome by a greater Law, which is the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Just as Aerodynamics overcomes Gravity). I don't really understand yet how this new Law takes over, whether it only takes over after we receive the Baptism of the Spirit or if it can happen before hand.

I tend to think that if a man dies in that state that he won't be saved. We all likely go through that state of struggle with sin, as the "Law is a taskmaster to bring us to Christ," but we have to move on from there into God's grace before we die. I believe we need to have a cleansing wrought by the Holy Spirit while on earth, in order to be acceptable to enter heaven. (A return to the Adam/Eve state in the garden, able to obey God perfectly, though with the ability still to eat the evil fruit while still in this world).

Quest

[VW]

Little children know that their sins are forgiven for His names sake. Young men have the word in them, it has become strong, and they have defeated the evil one. Fathers know Him who is from the beginning.

To say that every christian is able to defeat sin is to place them again under the yoke of the law. We are not mature in Christ in a moment of time, because the mind, the soul is steeped in sin, in deception, in stupidity. Well, maybe not stupidity, although that was the case with me. I have spent years walking in Jesus in order to have the life I have now, and it is His work. I would hope that no one feels it necessary to criticize Jesus for the work He has done in me, or what He is doing in anyone else.

[livingbygrace]

Originally Posted by machew

After you are born again, all sin is willful and deliberate. We have been given the mind of Christ and a completely new nature that is contrary to the sinful nature. Before you are born again, we are slaves to our sinful nature.

-Machew

Can I ask you Machew? In the verses I quoted in the above passage of scripture, would you say Paul was saved at that time?

[MahogonySnail]

Paul would appear to be saying here that the sin he is committing is not done willfully and deliberately.

Would we say that Paul was saved during this time he is speaking of in his life?

Two views in christianity , the one that Paul had a dual sin/holy nature. The other, which I agree with is that Paul was not speaking about himself in the present tense but in the past tense before he came to Christ. He speaks in present tense to make his argument more vivid for the reader. A lot of bible scholars agree with this view, otherwise it makes Paul out to be a sinner one moment and a holy called apostle of God the next. When Paul calls himself the biggest sinner of all, did he mean at that present moment? NO, he was writing our new testament scripture for goodness sake. He meant in his past former life before coming to Christ. He never lost sight of what he was before Christ called him. Sometimes he talked about himself in this way, as a sinner, without Christ. But he did not mean to say he was a sinner at that very moment in time.

The bible clearly teaches you can't be living out of two natures at the same time. One is supposed to be dead, and the other is supposed to be alive. There is no sin in you if Christ has cleansed you and you are baptised in Christ , died, dead and buried with Him, and risen to new life. If not, we haven't understood the meaning behind baptism, or justification, or instant sanctification. But that doesn't mean christians can't and will not still sin. But since the old nature is dead, all sin that a christian commits is not deliberate or willful. They are led to sin by temptation by satan and caught in a snare. They didn't choose to do it of their own choice. That is what deliberate and willful sin really is IMO. Willful and deliberate sin, the idea to commit it , the thought and intent in the heart, must come solely from you. A christian cannot sin this way because according to 1 John God's seed is in him and he cannot sin. i.e. he cannot willfullly and deliberately sin against God.

[VW]

Originally Posted by MahogonySnail

Two views in christianity , the one that Paul had a dual sin/holy nature. The other, which I agree with is that Paul was not speaking about himself in the present tense but in the past tense before he came to Christ. He speaks in present tense to make his argument more vivid for the reader. A lot of bible scholars agree with this view, otherwise it makes Paul out to be a sinner one moment and a holy called apostle of God the next. When Paul calls himself the biggest sinner of all, did he mean at that present moment? NO, he was writing our new testament scripture for goodness sake. He meant in his past former life before coming to Christ. He never lost sight of what he was before Christ called him. Sometimes he talked about himself in this way, as a sinner, without Christ. But he did not mean to say he was a sinner at that very moment in time.

The bible clearly teaches you can't be living out of two natures at the same time. One is supposed to be dead, and the other is supposed to be alive. There is no sin in you if Christ has cleansed you and you are baptised in Christ , died, dead and buried with Him, and risen to new life. If not, we haven't understood the meaning behind baptism, or justification, or instant sanctification. But that doesn't mean christians can't and will not still sin. But since the old nature is dead, all sin that a christian commits is not deliberate or willful. They are led to sin by temptation by satan and caught in a snare. They didn't choose to do it of their own choice. That is what deliberate and willful sin really is IMO. Willful and deliberate sin, the idea to commit it , the thought and intent in the heart, must come solely from you. A christian cannot sin this way because according to 1 John God's seed is in him and he cannot sin. i.e. he cannot willfullly and deliberately sin against God.

It is not quiet so simple. John also wrote that if one says that they do not have sin, then they are a liar, and the truth is not in them.

I think that Paul meant right then, he was the biggest sinner of all. Why? Because as we see God and His holiness, we see ourselves in that light. We don't stand up, no way. The better we see Him and His holiness, the more we are saved from the deception of how we see ourselves. Paul saw pretty clearly.

[machew]

Originally Posted by livingbygrace

Can I ask you Machew? In the verses I quoted in the above passage of scripture, would you say Paul was saved at that time?

If you read on, which you should since this was originally written as a letter and not a text with chapter and verse numbers, you would see in Romans 8 that chapter 7 was describing his previous condition because he says many times that the law of sin and death, the sinful nature in him died with Christ. Paul in chapter 7 describes the sinful nature that waged war in him before he had his new life in Christ.


I've posted this before but it is always worth the re-post and explains this a lot better than I just did.

[Clement]

Heb. 10:26-27 "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins. But a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries." (NKJV)

[QuestionTime]

Originally Posted by Clement

Heb. 10:26-27 "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins. But a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries." (NKJV)

I can't imagine sinning after receiving the "knowledge of the truth," but I believe John Wesley said that fewer than 1 in 3 people who experience the Baptism of the Spirit actually keep it. (They may receive the Spirit again on the deathbed however)

Quest

[machew]

Originally Posted by Clement

Heb. 10:26-27 "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins. But a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries." (NKJV)

If you look at this verse in context of the whole chapter, the writer is talking about Jews who return to following the law after receiving Christ. You have to read the whole chapter to clarify what he is talking about.

[QuestionTime]

Originally Posted by machew

If you look at this verse in context of the whole chapter, the writer is talking about Jews who return to following the law after receiving Christ. You have to read the whole chapter to clarify what he is talking about.

That should mean anyone who turns back to trusting in their own efforts though, right? Even a Gentile who thinks he can keep a list of rules and get saved by his own Righteousness.

Quest

[machew]

Originally Posted by QuestionTime

That should mean anyone who turns back to trusting in their own efforts though, right? Even a Gentile who thinks he can keep a list of rules and get saved by his own Righteousness.

Quest

Yes this applies to everyone. The reason why I mentioned this being for the Jews is because this was a letter written specifically to the Jews. But yes this applies to all, not just Jews :-)

-Machew

[MahogonySnail]

It is not quiet so simple. John also wrote that if one says that they do not have sin, then they are a liar, and the truth is not in them.

John was only writing to those who did have sin but did not acknowledge it. He was not writing to those who had no sin to be repented of.

[MahogonySnail]

I think that Paul meant right then, he was the biggest sinner of all. Why? Because as we see God and His holiness, we see ourselves in that light. We don't stand up, no way. The better we see Him and His holiness, the more we are saved from the deception of how we see ourselves. Paul saw pretty clearly.

If Paul was the biggest sinner of all right then, then the scriptures and everything he wrote was written by a liar, a sinner, and not a saint. And that has serious complications for how we view Paul's letters as sacred and holy scripture.

[livingbygrace]

Originally Posted by machew

If you read on, which you should since this was originally written as a letter and not a text with chapter and verse numbers, you would see in Romans 8 that chapter 7 was describing his previous condition because he says many times that the law of sin and death, the sinful nature in him died with Christ. Paul in chapter 7 describes the sinful nature that waged war in him before he had his new life in Christ.


I've posted this before but it is always worth the re-post and explains this a lot better than I just did.

Machew I have read on, I know what is in ch8, but I just wondered if you believed Paul was saved when he was in the state he spoke of in the verses I have quoted?

[livingbygrace]

When people say that all sin comitted once a person is saved is wilfull, deliberate sin, they do mean all sin I take it, not just certain sin?

Anger is a sin, an impure thought is a sin, failing to always love our Christian brother or sister is a sin. Would a person be sinning if they do not obey all of Jesus words in the beatitudes?

I just want to be clear that all sin is concerned here, not just certain sin.