Willful sin and the sin of ignorance

InSpiritInTruth · Nov 21, 2016

There is a member in these forums that says all sin is willful sin. And this same member even says despite ongoing willful sin, even the willful sin of practicing homosexual sex, even that willful sin and all willful sin shall be forgiven. People this false doctrine is straight from the pits of hell.

We have the words of God to prove that not all sin is willful sin as this member suggests, and we also have the words of God that tells us what happens if one sins willfully after receiving the knowledge of the Truth according to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

First let’s go to the OT law which was a shadow of the NT law shown here….

Numbers 15:29-31 “Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.

[SUP]30 [/SUP]But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously,whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the Lord; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]Because he hath despised the word of the Lord, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.”

The sin of ignorance can be forgiven in both the OT law and also in the NT law, but the blatant willful sin after receiving the knowledge of the Truth shall not be forgiven per both OT law and NT law. Here is proof…

Hebrews 10:26 “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,”

Wilful sin against God's commands breaks the first and greatest commandment, and that is to Love God...

Matthew 22:36-38 "Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

[SUP]37 [/SUP]Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
[SUP]38 [/SUP]This is the first and great commandment."

Now the only ones who can willfully sin against God’s Word and words, which is the Truth, are those who know it and have knowledge of it. Because all of us were at one time ignorant of the Truth and will of God being once blind to the Truth and in darkness.

Notice what Jesus says about blindness and sin here….John 9:41 “Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

Blindness in scripture is also shown as a condition of ignorance to sin….

Ephesians 4:17 [SUP]17 [/SUP]This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,[SUP]18 [/SUP]Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:[SUP]19 [/SUP]Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]But ye have not so learned Christ;”

And again formerly ignorant to sin….

1 Peter 1:13-16 “Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;[SUP]14 [/SUP]As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:[SUP]15 [/SUP]But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.”

So we were all once sinning in ignorance while we were in darkness, but when you come to the knowledge and light of the truth in Jesus Christ those days of ignorance are over.

Acts 17:30 “And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:”

Grace777x70 · Nov 21, 2016

All sinning is willful - whether you believe it or not and it has been proven many times.

All works of the flesh are done with our choosing of our will. The devil does not make us do it - despite what Flip Wilson says...

NO one is advocating sinning even those that have malice and slander and outbursts of anger - they are all in the same boat as sexual sins. - works of the flesh.

Us religious people like to "categorize" sinning because then we can condemn them because "we don't do that type of sinning". This is Phariseeism at it's finest.

Hebrews 10:26 is talking about the "wilfull" sin of unbelief in the sacrifice of Christ for the taking away of their sins which is what the Hebrews were doing.

After receiving the "knowledge of the truth" that Jesus' blood alone takes away sins - - not the receiving the truth Himself - they go back to relying on the temple sacrifices for their sins. That's why there remains no more sacrifice for sins - other than in the Lord Jesus Christ.

It is the teaching and preaching of the gospel of the grace of Christ that will free us from sinning.

Grace "teaches" us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensible, righteously and godly in this present age. Titus 2:11-12

wattie · Nov 21, 2016

Because of grace given, this is what allows people to discontinue in habitual sin or willful sin.

If the consequence of getting caught in habitual sin is condemnation to hell, then there was no freedom from that sin.

How do you break addictions? By being condemned when you fail? No! By knowing you are freed from the addiction by the grace of Jesus Christ. He convicts the person by the power of the Holy Spirit and they are then given the means to discontinue in it.

Heb_10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

The surrounding chapter of this verse is about ANIMAL sacrifices. This is about the fact that the Hebrew believers can't use the OT Law system to sacrifice an animal to please God after sinning. They are now in the New Testament faith system.. where they can now look BACK to Jesus sacrifice rather than have foreshadows of Him in the sacrificing of animals.

They still need to get off the sin band wagon.. but it isn't thru atoning by offering up a sacrifice to God.

Heb_10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

(Col 2:13) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

(Col 2:14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

(Col 2:15) And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

InSpiritInTruth · Nov 21, 2016

I just proved you are wrong again by the words of God above in the OP. But yet again you deny the words of God as true over your own false beliefs and doctrine.

Here is more proof from the words of God that not all sins are wilful sins but some are done in ignorance....

Luke 23:34
Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

Acts 3:14-17
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers."

Same with Paul's sins of ignorance....

1 Timothy 1:12-13

[SUP]12 [/SUP]And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

eternally-gratefull · Nov 21, 2016

sin is sin is sin,

Notice how the legalists want to excuse their own sin by trying to classify it.

James said if we commit even the least of all sins, we are seen as law breakers. the penalty of sin (all sin) is death

Run from these people who want to excuse their own sin, While judging other people to be sinners. Hypocrites.

InSpiritInTruth · Nov 21, 2016

You people are truly under strong delusion if you really think the only way to willfully sin is to go back to animal sacrifices. I guess that's why they think practicing homosexuals are still saved by grace despite their willful and proud rebellion against Gods commands, because after all it's not "animal sacrifice". WHAT A JOKE!

Again, we see another futile attempt to support ongoing wilful sin and rebellion towards God by this group by trying to twist and misrepresent the words of God in order to justify themselves and their wilful sinning.

Grace777x70 · Nov 21, 2016

There are sins that we do every day out of ignorance too - for example - whatsoever is not of faith is sin. There are many times we are doing things out of fear and not faith.

But when we "do" the works of the flesh - we are engaging our will to do it and that is called "wilfull".

Let's say that they OP wants to display malice and slander towards someone in the body of Christ. If he did that - he would be engaging his will to sin because these are "works of the flesh" the word "works" means "to do" - "deeds done" in the body.

In this case it would be with the tongue - speaking words that have no grace in them which is "grieving " the Holy Spirit. Eph 4:29-10

Sin is deceitful and distorts our view of God, ourselves and others.

Preaching and teaching the grace of Christ in the gospel of Christ is the only thing that teaches us to deny ungodliness and to live sensibly and godly in is present world. Rom. 1:16 and Titus 2:11-12

And people are free to agree to disagree too...

InSpiritInTruth · Nov 21, 2016

Peter proves your "animal sacrifice" only theory WRONG! ---->>>>

2 Peter 2:20-22

[SUP]20 [/SUP]For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

The pollutions of the world in the above is talking about all forms of sin, NOT JUST RETURNING TO ANIMAL SACRIFICES!

Grace777x70 · Nov 21, 2016

Now..ISIT..many have shown you about 2 Peter 2:20 many times before but for the sake of any new people - here is what we have said about that portion of scripture. Everyone is free to agree or disagree too...

Paul uses the term "in Christ" in some form or other 174x times in his epistles when referring to Christians. How does the Holy Spirit get "un-joined" to the believer when scripture says that He is with us forever?

I don't believe Jesus nor the apostle John is lying to us about the Holy Spirit but others are free to believe they are lying if they want.

The Holy Spirit is with us forever Jesus said.

John 14:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;

[SUP]17 [/SUP] that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

The Spirit of truth is with us forever!2 John 1:2 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] for the sake of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever:

John says we are safe in the Lord as He keeps us. Isn't that exciting to know that?

As for your 2 Peter 2 ...here is the answer to that...that has been talked about in light of the New Covenant many times.

The whole chapter 2 in 2 Peter is talking about false prophets in verse 1...then in verse 9 Peter talks about the unrighteous ( the unbeliever )..

then in verse 13..they are stains and blemishes ( believers have no spot or blemish because of Jesus..1 Peter 1:19 Eph 5:27 Eph 1:4 )..all through that chapter he is not describing a believer in Christ.

Remember that Jesus said that the tares would grow up with the wheat and that the angels will separate them out - the believers in Christ - and the non-believers.

Even "IF" it is talking about a believer it still does not say they go to hell.

There are many people that "know the way" but refuse to believe in it - instead relying on their own works instead of the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ - these are entangled again back into the world's way of thinking and living. These do not become real Christians.

Here is a post #49 from mailmandan that dissects 2 Peter 2:20 down for us.

Twice dead

InSpiritInTruth · Nov 21, 2016

This is also a tactic of the gay pride movement. They try to label those who expose their errors and sins as "haters".

News flash to them, practicing homosexuals are not in the body of Christ, no more than a practicing serial killer is in the body of Christ.

stonesoffire · Nov 21, 2016

InSpiritInTruth said:

This goes along with what Jesus said...

Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
Mat 12:44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth itempty, swept, and garnished.
Mat 12:45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself sevenother spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last stateof that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

Be filled with His Spirit.

Grace777x70 · Nov 21, 2016

InSpiritInTruth said:

Are people that have outbursts of anger in the body of Christ? Are people that have malice towards other or jealousy - are they in the body of Christ. What about those that cause divisions? All these are works of the flesh - as well as sexual sins.

Grace777x70 · Nov 21, 2016

Anyway all this stuff has been hashed over many times - it boils down that some believe they lose their salvation and some don't. Let every man be fully convinced in their own mind.

But all sin done in the flesh is willful sinning from living a homosexual lifestyle to having malice towards others in the body of Christ. Outbursts of anger are in the same list as homosexuals.

Here is a question I put to the OP a number of times and he has refused to answer. It is concerning works of the flesh and it's eternal consequences.

Question:

There is a member that talked the other day about having "outbursts of anger" for over 30 years and still has them to some degree.

In ISIT's religion - if this person died right after she had a "works of the flesh" episode - would be go to hell? Because she did "willfully" have these anger outbursts. The devil didn't make her do it despite what flip Wilson says.

Here is an example ( and there are dozens more like this ) where someone was "doing the works of the flesh". Now these outbursts of anger are in the exact same list as for those doing homosexual sinning.

Tell us ISIT - would this person go to hell if she died right after doing a work of the flesh? What if she died 10 years after still doing these anger fits? What about after 30 year?

For the record - I believe if she died after having an anger fit - she would be in her loving Father's arms because she was in fact in Christ - just walking after the flesh. The gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and the blood of Jesus speaks of salvation and of better things then the spirit of condemnation.

What say you ISIT? This will "flesh out" ( pardon the pun ) your belief system to see what it really consists of.

Again - no one is condoning living a life of sinning either homosexual sinning or outbursts of anger - or of having malice towards others in the body of Christ. There are no categories of sinning with God as can be seen by all of these are in the list of the "works of the flesh".

- sin will deceive you and destroy your life here. Take up shooting heroin in your arms and your life will change dramatically.

Grace777x70 · Nov 21, 2016

stonesoffire said:

Amen...get born-again and be filled with the Spirit. These unbelievers that have the devil cast out of them need to come to Christ so that they will be saved.

stonesoffire · Nov 21, 2016

I don't believe a Christian can be possessed though. That is what Peter is talking about, to know about Jesus, but not to be known of Him.

Being filled with Holy Spirit and moving in His Spirit. Not trying to be good, but trusting in His goodness.

Its sometimes hard to get from works to relying on grace. We think naturally that we have to be good in order to be accepted. That's the wrong tree of the garden.

InSpiritInTruth · Nov 21, 2016

I have answered multiple times with great multitudes of scripture, but you constantly ignore all my answers by scripture. HERE IS YOUR ANSWER------->>>>>
Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."

Can you hear now what the Lord is saying?????

Utah · Nov 21, 2016

eternally-gratefull said:

Blaspheme is no joke, to say the least.

stonesoffire · Nov 21, 2016

That doesn't always mean we will pass on. Death is working in us all because we age in our body naturally.

Now heres a question that not many ask in forums. What was the high calling of God that Paul was aiming for? It's goes with this thread actually, and is not off topic. This floored me when I first realized it and scared me so bad I shut my bible and didn't pick it up again for months. However, it shouldn't cause us to fear since it's His work and not ours.

seed_time_harvest · Nov 21, 2016

InSpiritInTruth said:

Is gluttony a wilful sin or Is It a sin of Ignorance?

If you say that gluttony Is a sin of Ignorance,then at what point does It become a wilful sin after you realize you have gained 50lbs from last year?

InSpiritInTruth · Nov 21, 2016

stonesoffire said:

Both Jesus, Peter, and Paul were talking about those who would turn back and fall away from the faith, but many who believe in OSAS are deceived, and even deny this falling away from the faith can even happen. Here is one of the posts I made on the topic....http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/106348-falling-away.html

Willful sin and the sin of ignorance

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