You hate me cause I'm right...right?

[Dread_Zeppelin]

Let me first say this post is not about abortion- it's about how we tell others the truth when they dont agree with us.

I walked through campus yesterday and a very well-to-do "Christian" moral organization set up in my school an anti-abortion protest right on the campus lawn. They had aborted fetus pictures that were 10 feet high, claiming that the amount of loss of life was genocide.

This would have been okay except the pictures were really shockingly graphic (without warning) and they also claimed that the trend paralleled the nazi movement with the Jews (which followed posters of hanged people). When I didn't feel like throwing up from the way-too-in-your-face pictures I started to chuckle macabrely. There are a million reasons why abortion isn't like the houlocast. It just made their cause seem so rediculous.

People were more than upset over this display, they were downright irate. 50 students picketed the anti-abortion display claiming it was disgusting and scare-tactics. Which honestly I agreed with.

I am anti-abortion but this was an example of the wrong way to go about telling people the right thing. Had this organization perhaps passed out a flyer of aborted fetus's and not had huge bloody posters that any person could see a mile away, compared the issue to the persecution of the Jews, and weren't so thoughtless about the way they presented themselves they could have made a point to a person struggling this issue.

How many times do we as Christians tell others the right information but do it in such an agressive, rediculous, or harsh manner that people dismiss us and the message together? Its often not what you say to a person but how you say it. People will always look at you first then what you say to judge.

This is why I hate it when people claim that they'll "Tell the truth in your face no matter what! I dont care if you get offended I'm doing it for Jesus!" No- no you're not. Christ tells us to love one another and be an example for Him. If God tells you to witness to a person and for you to get up in their face- thats when I excuse a person to do it, but that shouldn't be our approach for all people. You hinder progress in an unbelievers life if you act this way because no one will receive the message.

 

[lighthousejohn]

Let me first say this post is not about abortion- it's about how we tell others the truth when they dont agree with us.

I walked through campus yesterday and a very well-to-do "Christian" moral organization set up in my school an anti-abortion protest right on the campus lawn. They had aborted fetus pictures that were 10 feet high, claiming that the amount of loss of life was genocide.

This would have been okay except the pictures were really shockingly graphic (without warning) and they also claimed that the trend paralleled the nazi movement with the Jews (which followed posters of hanged people). When I didn't feel like throwing up from the way-too-in-your-face pictures I started to chuckle macabrely. There are a million reasons why abortion isn't like the houlocast. It just made their cause seem so rediculous.

People were more than upset over this display, they were downright irate. 50 students picketed the anti-abortion display claiming it was disgusting and scare-tactics. Which honestly I agreed with.

I am anti-abortion but this was an example of the wrong way to go about telling people the right thing. Had this organization perhaps passed out a flyer of aborted fetus's and not had huge bloody posters that any person could see a mile away, compared the issue to the persecution of the Jews, and weren't so thoughtless about the way they presented themselves they could have made a point to a person struggling this issue.

How many times do we as Christians tell others the right information but do it in such an agressive, rediculous, or harsh manner that people dismiss us and the message together? Its often not what you say to a person but how you say it. People will always look at you first then what you say to judge.

This is why I hate it when people claim that they'll "Tell the truth in your face no matter what! I dont care if you get offended I'm doing it for Jesus!" No- no you're not. Christ tells us to love one another and be an example for Him. If God tells you to witness to a person and for you to get up in their face- thats when I excuse a person to do it, but that shouldn't be our approach for all people. You hinder progress in an unbelievers life if you act this way because no one will receive the message.

Dred,
I am in full agreement with you. The message is lost in the delivery. The murder of doctors that provide abortion in the "name of Jesus" goes against the ten commandments and the teachings of Christ.

There are extremeists in every "group" of people. Christians are not exempt from overzealous behavior. There has been so much harm done in the name of Christianity. The Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the Salem witch trials, and so on.


Of course, the same can be said of the other side of the argument. I often wonder when the extreme "right: and he extreme "left" are considered to be terrorists because of their method of getting their message across.

I do not think we will ever be able to rid our ranks of these extremeists but we must defend our faith even if it is against our own "members". We must however, be sure that we do it in love.

In Christ,
John

 

[glenwood74]

I think that we may be overlooking the fact that Jesus was an extremist. He would warn people of their hypocrisy, their evil, their self delusions, and they would try to, and ultimately did, kill Him for it. We are told to speak the truth in love, but we are also told that the world will hate us when we do it. I am not sure how to feel about the abortion pictures, but I see a correlation of abortion to genocide; It's all about selfishness and points of view, and it ends up determining the life/death of a human being. Is it sinful for us to tell a sinner that they are sinning? Is it sinful for us to confront the sinner with the consequences of that sin? I'm not a confrontational person, but perhaps that is my sin.....

 

[Vidy]

I think that we may be overlooking the fact that Jesus was an extremist. He would warn people of their hypocrisy, their evil, their self delusions, and they would try to, and ultimately did, kill Him for it. We are told to speak the truth in love, but we are also told that the world will hate us when we do it. I am not sure how to feel about the abortion pictures, but I see a correlation of abortion to genocide; It's all about selfishness and points of view, and it ends up determining the life/death of a human being. Is it sinful for us to tell a sinner that they are sinning? Is it sinful for us to confront the sinner with the consequences of that sin? I'm not a confrontational person, but perhaps that is my sin.....

I think you actually have a point. While I am still kinda edgy about the thought of giant graphic posters being displayed to get a point across, Jesus WAS an extremist, and He DID do "In your face" things to get his point across *looks at Jesus's tantrum in the marketplace/temple*

However, in Jesus's case, these people were defiling the temple of God. In the case of abortion, people are defiling their own bodies (sometimes temples of God) and the body of another. This is definitely an outrage, and if our society was set up differently, would justify these actions. However, ANY religious-based argument based on abortion is going to be 100% ignored. Lawmakers don't go by the Christian standard anymore (unfortunately). Therefore, this "in-your-face" attitude is the wrong way of going about it.


Also, I can see where the "genocide" thing comes in, but it definitely ISN'T the same. Ironically, in an abortion debate I had a while back, people said that being classified as "murder" is based ENTIRELY on current laws, because of the definition of murder- "unlawful killing of another human." So I asked, "What do you call the Holocaust then? That was lawful at the time. What about lynching? What about a dictator killing someone they just don't like?" They said a better word would be genocide. I then asked what a word for "unjust killing" would be, and surprisingly, there isn't anything 0_o

tl;dr- Yes, they were extremists and went too far in these particular circumstances. There were much better routes to take, and if anything, they are pushing pro-life people towards pro-choice.

 

[lighthousejohn]

I think you actually have a point. While I am still kinda edgy about the thought of giant graphic posters being displayed to get a point across, Jesus WAS an extremist, and He DID do "In your face" things to get his point across *looks at Jesus's tantrum in the marketplace/temple*

However, in Jesus's case, these people were defiling the temple of God. In the case of abortion, people are defiling their own bodies (sometimes temples of God) and the body of another. This is definitely an outrage, and if our society was set up differently, would justify these actions. However, ANY religious-based argument based on abortion is going to be 100% ignored. Lawmakers don't go by the Christian standard anymore (unfortunately). Therefore, this "in-your-face" attitude is the wrong way of going about it.


Also, I can see where the "genocide" thing comes in, but it definitely ISN'T the same. Ironically, in an abortion debate I had a while back, people said that being classified as "murder" is based ENTIRELY on current laws, because of the definition of murder- "unlawful killing of another human." So I asked, "What do you call the Holocaust then? That was lawful at the time. What about lynching? What about a dictator killing someone they just don't like?" They said a better word would be genocide. I then asked what a word for "unjust killing" would be, and surprisingly, there isn't anything 0_o

tl;dr- Yes, they were extremists and went too far in these particular circumstances. There were much better routes to take, and if anything, they are pushing pro-life people towards pro-choice.

Jesus was considered to be an an extremeist because of His speaking against the religous authorities of the time. His message was considered to go against the mainstream thinking of the Jews. He was considered radical because of His statemens about His Father and being rebuilding the Temple in three days and the forgiveness of the adulterous woman. He went against the nor in every instance, yet there was always a heart of love for the people.

As far as abortion being considered genocide; Hitler killed approximatly 6,000,000 Jews, Poles, Gypsies, homo-sexuals and anyone else He did not like. That was called genocide. Stalin was said to have killed about 20,000,000 people and that was called genocide.

Since 1973, 48,589,993 unborn children have been aborted according to the latest statistics. If that is not a crime againt humanity, then I don't know what is. Based on numbers alone, the United States has killed more people than any genocidal despot in history.

We do need to take a stand against abortion and we should be vociferous in our defense of the unborn, but we need to follow Jesus' example and do it with love in our hearts.

In Christ,
John

 

[1still_waters]

How come if the actual pictures offend them, the act that created those pictures doesn't offend them?

Just bothers me that folks are more disgusted by pictures than they are over the actual act of sucking babies alive out of their mothers wombs.

 

[karuna]

I think you actually have a point. While I am still kinda edgy about the thought of giant graphic posters being displayed to get a point across, Jesus WAS an extremist, and He DID do "In your face" things to get his point across *looks at Jesus's tantrum in the marketplace/temple*

I'm glad someone brought this up. It's an excellent description of what it really means to do what Jesus would do. Mark says:

He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves

He didn't confront them with their sin and wait for them to agree, he turned the tables over. This has nothing to do with putting up pictures of aborted fetuses - it is more like sabotaging the equipment at an abortion clinic.

and would not allow anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts.

What does this mean? Did Jesus stand there for hours, flailing a whip around, threatening anybody who got too close? What does it mean he wouldn't allow them? After the initial shock, Jesus began teaching. It is my understanding that Jesus exercised his authority to simply assert that no one would be bringing merchandise into the temple anymore. In all of the gospels, the priests, scribes, and elders in fact ask him to justify the authority he'd been exercising.

Most people imagine that he screamed his lines in anger, but Mark continues:

And he was teaching them and saying to them, "Is it not written, 'My house shall be called a house of prayer for all the nations'? But you have made it a den of robbers."

Matthew adds:

And the blind and the lame came to him in the temple, and he healed them.

After turning over the tables, he taught and healed. How is it possible that he still had any credibility after such a tantrum? After we try to convict someone of sin, we've usually burned our bridges and don't have any currency. I always go back to this passage from 1 Peter 3 when considering how far one should go in offense:

Who is going to harm you if you are eager to do good? But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. "Do not fear what they fear; do not be frightened." But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. It is better, if it is God's will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.

The difference between us and Jesus is that before Jesus cleared the temple, he'd healed the blind. After he cleared the temple, he taught with authority and healed the lame. The people had a reason to be ashamed and sit at his feet. When we try to convict others of their sin, we're just another voice, devoid of authority, telling them how much they suck.

So, do we take Jesus as an exemplar? Do we feel we have the authority to go into churches and make rules about what they're doing? Is our good behavior so noteworthy to the person we're condemning that they'll feel ashamed at disagreeing with us? If we take Jesus as a justification for getting in someone's face, we've got to make sure we're just as authoritative and powerful.

 

[Matthew]

I've sadly resigned myself to the fact that some christians choose to make their points with a sledgehammer, derive a lot of satisfaction from being sanctimonious and have managed to mount a defense against the argument that it's judgemental, they just call it 'honesty'.

It is sickening to see people make sweeping statements and false claims to try and shock and guilt people out of certain behaviours.
The biggest tragedy of this kind of thing is these people are so lost in their own righteousness they fail to see how they alienate people from what motivates them, their christian faith, and when people walk away they aren't talking about the images or the messages they are talking about the people who have mounted the display and how much they dislike the attitude that is at play.

These people have failed to check their ego and when that isn't done an absolute faith can actually amplify negative qualities, and that kind of display is often the result, it's the oppsoite extreme to these 'Bible's for porn' exchanges, which are just as ineffective and juvenile.

 

[loveschild]

From what the Lord has been showing me is he is rebuking people. Hes fed up with people not doing the will of God. Time is up. Its time for people to stop making excuses for the wicked things they do.
The wrath of God is happening right now.
God does not always say things in a sweet gentil voice.
In the old testament they were sacrificing babies to Baal. Then in Moses time they were sacrificing babies. Over and over babies have been scarificed. Now we call it abortion. God is mad and upset. If people don't repent now for the abortions they will go to hell. Point blank.
The Lord is looking for more people who will stand for him and even if the world gets mad at them for speaking up for God they still stand.
If planned parenthood was at the college passing out how tos on murdering babies everyone would just go through the day as a normal day.
The Lord wants the murders stopped and the people to repent. He will forgive them.

 

[NodMyHeadLikeYeah]

I dont like those pictures.......

 

[loveschild]

I watched my granddaughter the other day. She is 5 months old and still in the womb. She is one inch big. She was stretching and wondering what was rubbing up agaisnt her with the thing the lady uses to see through my daughters belly.
People think as the babies inside the wombs as lil blobs of meat.
My daughter told me before how there are movies of the tiny babies inside of the wombs and the needles or knives that are coming at them to kill them inside of the womb. the inky dinky babies start trying to move to get away form it. Its like they have fear and know that something is coming to kill them.
As I watched my one inch big grandbaby moving around at being pressed on you could see very well that she knew something was going on.

 

[Dread_Zeppelin]

I've sadly resigned myself to the fact that some christians choose to make their points with a sledgehammer, derive a lot of satisfaction from being sanctimonious and have managed to mount a defense against the argument that it's judgemental, they just call it 'honesty'.

It is sickening to see people make sweeping statements and false claims to try and shock and guilt people out of certain behaviours.
The biggest tragedy of this kind of thing is these people are so lost in their own righteousness they fail to see how they alienate people from what motivates them, their christian faith, and when people walk away they aren't talking about the images or the messages they are talking about the people who have mounted the display and how much they dislike the attitude that is at play.

These people have failed to check their ego and when that isn't done an absolute faith can actually amplify negative qualities, and that kind of display is often the result, it's the oppsoite extreme to these 'Bible's for porn' exchanges, which are just as ineffective and juvenile.

I'm going to give you a big fat gold star for commenting on the issue that I intended to get across. Haha! Well done.

 

[camragirl73]

I had three abortions i wished some one would have showed me pictures i would have thought
about it more nobody told me the truth as a child we need more truth about it

 

[charisenexcelcis]

Regarding the pictures, I am first concerned with the activist who showed them. The Bible speaks of sin frankly, but modestly. It uses euphenisms and often comes right out and says something is too shameful to speak of openly. The method used by this activists, the shock method, is this worlds method and shows no trust in the convicting power of the Holy Spirit.
Abortion is our nation's great sin. Over fifty million legal abortions had been performed since Roe vs Wade. This is greater than all the war causlties that America has ever suffered. This is greater than any plague save the Black plague. This is the population of Italy or South Korea. Would that rather seeing us spew hate, I would that the world would see Christians weeping on the streets and offering to adopt any child gifted by God to America. the numbers overthrow the arguments as all but a fraction are "cosmetic" abortions. the numbers of illegal abortions performed prior to legalizion is a pittance compared to the numbers afterward. Our reaction to this ought to be mourning, fasting and prayer. Our reaction to those who get abortion, victims also, should be love, forgiveness and healing
Personally, when this subject is brought up (rarely by those who have actually had an abortion) I simply ask, "When did you consider your fetus as your child?" The vast majority, answering honestly, admit that they did so when they first found that they were expecting.

 

[pickles]

I had three abortions i wished some one would have showed me pictures i would have thought
about it more nobody told me the truth as a child we need more truth about it

I understand what you speak to. Although I believe that our aproach as christians should be one of faith, commitment and the Love of Jesus. camragirl makes an important point.
One of my sisters founded a councilling and provision ministry for pregnant women.
The most frightening truth is she has had to help many recover from, is that most women and young teens are not told the truth about the babies they carried.
Told that it was no more than a blob of tissue, no brain or feeling.
After the abortion when they learned the truth they were devistated.
Photos are the best truth that can be spoken to. The baby also can feel pain within the first few weeks.
Although I dissagree with some of the tactics used, the truth needs to be told so that those pregnant can make a truelly informed dessision.
There is a multitude of women that are suffering, and many babies that would have been born had the truth been given to them. Since the groups that support abortion and give them, have worked to keep this information hidden. I support the need fore the truth to be out there.
But all we do as christians must always be in Jesus.

Camragirl, my heart and prayers are with you.
God bless, pickles

 

[loveschild]

I had three abortions i wished some one would have showed me pictures i would have thought
about it more nobody told me the truth as a child we need more truth about it

Just confess your sin and you will see your children when you get to heaven.

Lots try to make it out as Jesus only spoke in some light whisper voice. He was yelling loud when he was mad and throwing things around in the temple. And that was only over them using the temple as a store.

He is mad and upset at the people of the world calling evil good and good evil. He wants the baby murders stoped.

Its a shame that the so called self righteous Christians will get on here and attack Christians for doing Gods will. I pray big giant bill boards be put up all over the world showing the babies with faces, arms and legs being cut up into pieces. In Jesus!

 

[Matthew]

I'm going to give you a big fat gold star for commenting on the issue that I intended to get across. Haha! Well done.

Thanks very much I didn't get many of those in school.

I know how you feel about this, whatever each person thinks is the right approach I'd like to think we could come together in agreeing that this isn't the way, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

 

[Dread_Zeppelin]

Its a shame that the so called self righteous Christians will get on here and attack Christians for doing Gods will. I pray big giant bill boards be put up all over the world showing the babies with faces, arms and legs being cut up into pieces. In Jesus!

I find your stance on calling Christians like myself "self righteous" very insulting. I dont think anyone is so called anything for not agreeing with 10 feet tall pictures of mutilated bodies. This is why I said in my first post to hand out flyers of the pictures- to help people like me not throw up because they're so graphic (yes that really happened). It didn't change the fact that I think abortion is wrong.The fact that they had hanging dead bodies next to them and beaten children was even more atrocious. Theres a difference between informing others and being tactless.

You should be more sensitive about how you judge others who dont agree with you.

 

[Matthew]

Its a shame that the so called self righteous Christians will get on here and attack Christians for doing Gods will. I pray big giant bill boards be put up all over the world showing the babies with faces, arms and legs being cut up into pieces. In Jesus!

I think disagreeing with the method these people used cannot be called attacking them, it's just a difference of opinion in how best to go about putting your message across.

I understand why you feel it would be great to have more protests of this nature because you want to see the message put out there and done so in a bold way, but feeling good about it is ultimately an irrelevant factor.
If we are trying to change people's minds we have to do things in a way that keeps them receptive to the message, if people were throwing up and protesting the method these people were using then that should make it clear to all christians that the message is lost on these people because they feel offended at the way it has been done.

So these posters may have been done in Jesus, but it seems all they accomplished was driving people away from Jesus, so that's a bad day not a good day, and it counts for nothing that the christians that hung those pictures were proud of what they did.

 

[MahogonySnail]

If it can be shown how many people stopped having abortions due to the billboard and sign waving antics of christians and others it would be interesting to see the facts.

Shock and horror tactics such as pictures of aborted foetuses, are often not aborted foetuses at all. This is because many of the pictures involve babies with hair on their heads so obviously these are very late or post-birth deaths. I recall in such pictures circulating emails a few years ago one was even a picture of a baby monkey or something.