SIN AND THE BELIEVER

Yahshua · Nov 27, 2016

Ok thanks. But if we keep all sin together, not separate sin into outward/physical sins vs. thoughts (since a sin is a sin is a sin), would your answer change any?

Also, could you expand on how feeling condemned (which I take to mean, being convicted of the Holy Spirit) is someone trying to perfect their spirit with their flesh? The flesh doesn't want to obey God at all so why would it feel convicted? Meanwhile the spirit does. So if the spirit convicts; makes us feel bad for our sin (which is what the Holy Spirit was said it would do in a believer) how is that feeling attributed to the flesh or the "carnal" mind?

seed_time_harvest · Nov 27, 2016

Yahshua said:

Yes, a sin Is a sin Is a sin, but that sin Is not Imputed to the spirits of just men made perfect.

If a person is not born of the Spirit of GOD, then they are not spiritually In the body of CHRIST and would need to be perfect In their own strength In order to be In right standing before GOD.

For those that believe the WORD of GOD,they are spiritually joined with CHRIST.The perfect standard of righteousness was fulfilled by JESUS who Is on the right hand of our father In heaven and we have access to this grace through faith.

We are In the body of CHRIST and In HIM there Is no darkness.

In the flesh, there Is no good thing, but for those that have been born of the Spirit of GOD, are In the body and are In the light.

If we walk In the light (born of the Spirit) as HE Is In the light, then the blood of JESUS washes us clean of ALL sin.

A person cannot walk In the light If they are not born of the Spirit of GOD.
+++++++++++++
A person who has been born again Is no longer condemned and joined spiritually with GOD,but we are In bodies that have not been glorified as of yet and If that person Is focused more on the flesh than the Spirit they will take that feeling as condemnation but Paul,Inspired by GOD,said,by the mercies of GOD,present your bodies a living sacrifice,holy and acceptable to GOD by the renewing of your mind so that you may prove that good and acceptable and perfect will of GOD.

Grace777x70 · Nov 27, 2016

seed_time_harvest said:

I agree...

I have a few questions about the theory that when a believer sins in their body as it is called the works of the flesh. - where does Jesus and the Holy Spirit go when that sin is being done? They are joined as one spirit with us. Jesus Himself said that the Holy Spirit will be with us forever.

Do they leave until something else happens and then they can come back again? If this were true then every time we sinned - they would go in and out of our new creation in Christ. There is absolutely no scripture for that at all.

Let's say that someone had an outburst of anger at their spouse just before they went to bed that night. We know that is a work of the flesh from Gal.5:21 If they died that night in their sleep before they had a chance to "confess it in order to get cleansed again as some believe"- then according to the theory that the Lord leaves our spirit when we sin - they would not be joined to Christ and in some people's minds go to hell.

As, we can see - there is so much wrong with this theory of our spirits where Christ is joined as one with us being infected with sins.

HisHolly · Nov 27, 2016

They don't go anywhere. The HS doesn't leave bc of sin. He did leave in the OT bc God would remove Him from some. He didn't do so with David thru and after His sins. They aren't the ones who are a consuming fire.

Grace777x70 said:

I agree...

I have a few questions about the theory that when a believer sins in their body as it is called the works of the flesh. - where does Jesus and the Holy Spirit go when that sin is being done? They are joined as one spirit with us. Jesus Himself said that the Holy Spirit will be with us forever.

Do they leave until something else happens and then they can come back again? If this were true then every time we sinned - they would go in and out of our new creation in Christ. There is absolutely no scripture for that at all.

Let's say that someone had an outburst of anger at their spouse just before they went to bed that night. We know that is a work of the flesh from Gal.5:21 If they died that night in their sleep before they had a chance to "confess it in order to get cleansed again as some believe"- then according to the theory that the Lord leaves our spirit when we sin - they would not be joined to Christ and in some people's minds go to hell.

As, we can see - there is so much wrong with this theory of our spirits where Christ is joined as one with us being infected with sins.

just adding to.. In no way am I calling you out or anything.

dcontroversal · Nov 27, 2016

seed_time_harvest said:

Yes, a sin Is a sin Is a sin, but that sin Is not Imputed to the spirits of just men made perfect.

If a person is not born of the Spirit of GOD, then they are not spiritually In the body of CHRIST and would need to be perfect In their own strength In order to be In right standing before GOD.

For those that believe the WORD of GOD,they are spiritually joined with CHRIST.The perfect standard of righteousness was fulfilled by JESUS who Is on the right hand of our father In heaven and we have access to this grace through faith.

We are In the body of CHRIST and In HIM there Is no darkness.

In the flesh, there Is no good thing, but for those that have been born of the Spirit of GOD, are In the body and are In the light.

If we walk In the light (born of the Spirit) as HE Is In the light, then the blood of JESUS washes us clean of ALL sin.

A person cannot walk In the light If they are not born of the Spirit of GOD.
+++++++++++++
A person who has been born again Is no longer condemned and joined spiritually with GOD,but we are In bodies that have not been glorified as of yet and If that person Is focused more on the flesh than the Spirit they will take that feeling as condemnation but Paul,Inspired by GOD,said,by the mercies of GOD,present your bodies a living sacrifice,holy and acceptable to GOD by the renewing of your mind so that you may prove that good and acceptable and perfect will of GOD.

Agree with this......

PeterJens · Nov 27, 2016

dcontroversal said:

There is a simple concept here. Everyone admits before God they are dirty and need cleansing.
Once cleansed we are clean.

It appears some do not believe they are ever really clean, only viewed as clean.

But if we have been "cleansed from ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS" then we are clean.

It appears to me is some do not believe the very verses they quote.

PeterJens · Nov 27, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

This theory assumes we are one with Christ, therefore incapable of sin.

so that with one mind and one voice you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom 15:6

Being one in mind and voice is not literally being unable to do something wrong and sinful
against another. It is a level of fellowship and communion, that is achieved and can be
broken.

So G7 proposition is we are mystically bound with God so therefore if we sin, God sins,
but this is not true, so the oneness is not as he describes it.

Grace777x70 · Nov 27, 2016

We sin because we yield to sin that is in the flesh but we are in the spirit. The flesh is not the real us - when we die - the flesh with the law of sin in it does not go with us to be with the Lord.

Romans 8:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

The scriptures are very clear - we are joined to the Lord in one spirit.

1 Corinthians 6:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

Jesus Himself said that the Father and He and the Holy Spirit would be in us as one. I'll have to go with the Lord on this one and we are mystically joined to the Lord. Our own humanistic natural minds cannot understand this truth.

Paul talks about us being in Christ and Christ in us over 100x times in his writings in some form or other. But we are free to believe whatever we want on this too. I'll stick with Jesus and Paul on this.

John 17:20-21 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;

[SUP]21 [/SUP] that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You,that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

The understanding of Christ being in us joined as one in the spirit stops a lot of these different works-based religious mindsets from deceiving our minds from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Romans 8:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

PeterJens · Nov 27, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

Paul actually says it differently.

And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Rom 8:3-4

The flesh and its influence in our lives has been condemned and dealt with.
So we can walk in the Spirit.

So our sin is our choice and not the flesh doing it. This is why G7 dualist
view is heresy and error.

Grace777x70 · Nov 27, 2016

Romans 6:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Romans 8:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Take up shooting heroin in your arms and you will die very soon.

Here in Romans 7 Paul is showing the war that is happening with the flesh and his real self in the inner man.

Romans 7:16-23 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.

[SUP]17 [/SUP] So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

[SUP]18[/SUP] For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.

[SUP]19 [/SUP] For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.

[SUP]20 [/SUP] But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

[SUP]21 [/SUP] I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.

[SUP]22 [/SUP] For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, ( notice Paul talking about the inner man as being not the flesh )

[SUP]23 [/SUP] but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. ( the body of flesh )

We are still responsible with what we do with our bodies but thank God for Romans Chapter 8 which talks about the victory and no condemnation we have in Christ and how we walk now by the Spirit so that we don't fulfill the lusts of the flesh to do "it's" desires and lusts.

The flesh is not the real us. We have this treasure - which is Christ Himself in this earthen vessel.

Galatians 5:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

Romans 13:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts.

Galatians 5:24-25 (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

[SUP]25 [/SUP] If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

stonesoffire · Nov 27, 2016

This thought just came to me....maybe our goal should be a mind set on always doing that which would please the Lord, rather than not sinning?

Remember sin consciousness as opposite to righteousness consciousness?

Also...we are spiritual not flesh beings. Change our thinking?

Just read your post Grace. Same thought.

dcontroversal · Nov 27, 2016

PeterJens said:

And it seems that others reject numerous scriptures in context and verb tense to peddle a false self righteous salvation!

PeterJens · Nov 27, 2016

dcontroversal said:

No one has ever talked self righteous salvation.
People have talked walking righteously because of being cleansed and transformed by Christ.
It appears because of unbelief and lack of experience people believe this is impossible.

Peter. John and Paul believe it is possible. So the real question is how.
And the answer is emotional honesty. Actually coming to terms with who
you are, your relationships with your parents and with your Father in heaven.

But most have never gone here, and are seriously afraid as if the Lord does
not speak to these issues.

p_rehbein · Nov 27, 2016

Being cleansed of unrighteousness simply means that when we give our lives to Christ, we die to the old man who was enslaved by sin, and born a new man who is free of the chains of sin. It does not mean that the believer will not sin, it simply means that those sins will NOT enslave him into eternal damnation.

It means that being under the Grace of God, and the continual care of our Mediator Jesus Christ, we are not doomed by those sins, but we DO have to repent of them and ask forgiveness for them........and He will be faithful to do what He said He would do, and forgive us........It means the price for our sins has been paid......and forgiveness is just a prayer away.

(my thoughts)

Yahshua · Nov 27, 2016

seed_time_harvest said:

You're talking about one having a sin consciousness vs. a clear conscience cleansed with Christ's blood. And I completely agree with that. But I'm referring to the work of the Holy Spirit in sanctifying (i.e. making holy) the believer.

It's written that the Holy Spirit seals the believer as well as convicts of sin. How does the Holy Spirit's task (to convict of sin) = a believer's fleshy pursuit of perfection? Or maybe a better question is: What's the point of the Holy Spirit's task if when he convicts of sin, the very act of bringing that sin to the mind of the believer (a reprimand of sorts) is, itself, considered being "carnal minded"?

Could you - or someone - speak on that for me?

Yahshua · Nov 27, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

The way I understand it is (a) the Holy Spirit seals the believer, so their outburst of anger wouldn't condemn them to fiery judgment...but (b) they *still* sinned and must either pay for that sin or be forgiven of that sin by Christ (whichever Christ chooses). Remember that scripture says we will all give an account of all that we've done - Good and Bad - before God at the end of days.

Romans 14:12
Yes, each of us will give a personal account to God.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Paul says it twice in two different letters. And he says it to believers (not unbelievers), using the words "we" and "us". Even in 1 Corinthians 6:13-20 he warns the believer against fornication (a sin) BECAUSE we are joined with Christ ("shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid."). So if we no longer had to worry about our sins; if we no longer had to focus on avoiding sins after faith in Christ, could you or someone explain how these passages fit into the picture?

Yahshua · Nov 27, 2016

stonesoffire said:

I Agree. I would only ask rhetorically: is there a difference between "pleasing the Lord" and "not sinning"?

I try to avoid sinning because I love God and want to please him. But if I sin I'm convicted of the Spirit and pray for forgiveness, and then with a cleared conscience I try harder next time to please God in that area by the grace of God (grace being God's divine strength given to the believer).

49 · Nov 27, 2016

Yahshua said:

Heard a preacher on the radio yesterday say "If it doesn't please The Lord, don't do it".

Have already quoted that to myself more times than I can count in the 24 hours since hearing it...

Grace777x70 · Nov 27, 2016

Yahshua said:

These are all good questions.......

Jesus Himself "paid for that sin" that you have mentioned at the start. Jesus took away the sin of the world. Behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world. Believers don't "pay for sins" - Jesus is the propitiation for our sins. 1 John 2:2

To me this judgment seat of Christ thing is addressed with the meaning of the word "bad" in 2 Cor. 5:10. We know the judgment seat of Christ is for rewards - not for punishment or judgment because Jesus Himself took all judgment. We know this for a number of reasons but a good one is we know we have no "fear of punishment" because 1 John says so.

For a believer that is in Christ to fear punishment - it means they don't know the love of God yet as they ought to.

1 John 4:17-19 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world. ( we are one in the spirit with the Lord )

[SUP]18 [/SUP] There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

[SUP]19 [/SUP] We love, because He first loved us.

Now let's look at the Greek word for "bad".

2527. [FONT="Galatia Sil" !important]κακός[/FONT] [FONT="Gentium" !important]kakos[/FONT] adj
Bad, evil, wicked, worthless, depraved.
Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary, The - The Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary – Zeta-Kappa.

In connection to the judgment seat of Christ for the rewards of things done in the body - the Greek word has a meaning which means "worthless". Remember that everything must be done by love which is the life of Christ inside of us manifesting in and through us to others. These are the "good deeds" done in the body.

Paul said in 1 Cor. 13 "Though I give all my possessions to feed the poor and give my body to be burned - it profits me nothing." in other words -"it is worthless"

So, at the judgment seat of Christ we will be getting rewards for the things that Christ has done in and through us as they will be the only deeds to qualify as being "good".

Romans 16:12 - the word for "account" is the Greek word for "word" - we shall give speak words to the Lord about our life and in context Paul is talking about us "judging others".

As far as 2 Cor 6:13-20 Paul is telling the Corinthian believers who they are in Christ and to not involve the Lord is participating in bad things because the Lord was with them when they were going to the temple prostitutes to have sex. Not a good thing. Stop doing stupid things now and grow up in Him.

stonesoffire · Nov 27, 2016

Yahshua said:

Its my thought that if our minds are on those things above, then righteousness will reign so to speak, or manifest? Maybe the fruit of our being in Him has more power than our flesh cravings because of how we are thinking?

My days go better for me if I listen to worship while doing my work, or study the Word first thing in the morning. Either leads to worship from my heart and I have joy and peace from being connected to Him or seeing a new revelation of Jesus in His Word.

Also, our prayer language is a great help to keep our minds and heart on the Lord.

I would think this is what it means "righteousness conscience".

Anyone else see more?

SIN AND THE BELIEVER

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