SIN AND THE BELIEVER

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Oct 31, 2016
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#41
where does Jesus and the Holy Spirit go when that sin is being done?
Oh, they're just over in the cafeteria having lunch... no biggie. (they eat kosher, of course)

Actually, we are a 3 part being... when you sin, it's YOU that decided to sin so YOU are held accountable based on Gal 6:7,8 which is why we need to confess our sin and be cleansed (1 Jon 1:9) and forsake our sin as in turning away from it (Proverbs 28:13)

One of the slickest tricks satan ever got TV preachers (false grace) to deliver to the masses is the Blood of Jesus automatically washes away all future sin with out our participation. If that were true, universalism would be true since God is no respector of persons and since it's will for all to be save having tasted of death for every person.

The true Grace of God is a person Who desires to live in us... and we are the deciding factor as to whether He is allowed to do so or not. No, He does not leave us, but if we put ourselves back on the throne of our lives as god the Lord cannot force Himself upon us so He must go on stand by until we come to our senses and quit leading our lives our own self... which is idolatry to have anything come before the Lord as our first love.
 
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Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
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#42
Sin and the believers are one fold, the other fold is the Grace and the faithful.

The believer's believe they are made from the dust of the ground, and the faithful's faith is they are born of the flesh of the LORD.
The believer's believe speaks by his own tongue, faithful's faith speaks by his spirit.
The believer's believe whatever he chooses, faithful's faith considers all things before discerning what is true.

I wonder if the believers still believe in eternal life? But seems that would mean they would have to go back to the start of the eternal which ironically has no beginning, might take a while eh?

To the faithful who have a beginning, everlasting life would suffice.

PETER who walked on water STUMBLED, FAILED AND SINNED when he denied the LORD AND CUSSED ABOUT IT..
Peter walked on water when his Lord bid him to 'come' but the measure given the believer is only faith with all things.

It is written, A faithful witness will not lie: but a false witness will utter lies. Prov 14:5, but I didn't witness anyone walking on water except one and the Son of God (Genesis 1:2) And unless the LORD said 'freeze' then I would think the principle of gravity would apply. But gravity is hard to buy...

I FOR ONE am tired of those who will embellish, change, highlight certain areas of a quote, misrepresent and or apply things not said by those who hold to the above truths that concern SIN AND HOW EVERY BELIEVER HAS THE ABILITY TO FAIL, STUMBLE AND OR SIN....
You said Peter sinned when denied Jesus?

The same Peter who answered Jesus question in Matthew 16:13-16

13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ. Matt 16:20
 
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Feb 24, 2015
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#43

For a believer that is in Christ to fear punishment - it means they don't know the love of God yet as they ought to.

1 John 4:17-19 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world. ( we are one in the spirit with the Lord )

[SUP]18 [/SUP] There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

[SUP]19 [/SUP] We love, because He first loved us.

The above is a typical failure in understanding God and love.
If love dwells in your heart, you express love without fear, because love removes
the fear in your response.

Fear should be felt by everyone, in terms of respect, awe, wonder at who the Lord
is, and who we are.

Paul expressed fear and trembling

"I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling."
1 cor 2:3

Paul expresses this to show he was not arrogant or presuming the reception he
would receive, but as a weak frail human sharing good news with others in need.

It is a similar thing with pain. Pain tells us to stop doing something but do something
else because we are causing damage to our bodies. Without pain we would destroy
our bodies and not know it.

Now G7 are a group who regard fear as sin or unbelief, and so condemn people who
show respect and fear, even though we are shown fear in this regard is the beginning
of wisdom.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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#44
and you believe that you have to do good in order for God to love and accept you, instead of the proper belief that we are saved by grace through faith for good works, IT IS NOT OF OURSELVES, it is a gift of God. it is so simple, why can't you see it??
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#45
There is a massive difference between reverence and awe for our Father and "fear" as in dread or afraid of. Not nothing the difference creates a works-based mindset that is always trying to maintain our own righteousness instead of relying on Christ alone for His life to be manifested.

Fear is a natural human response to things that come at us in this life. Jesus never reprimanded His disciples for having that human response. He would just say "Fear not" and proceed to talk to them about the truth so that they would be settled down in their minds. "Fear not for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom"

"Fear not for your Father who takes care of the sparrows , you have more value than them to Him ".

Paul in 1 Cor. 2:3 came in weakness and fear because he was not depending on himself - his own self-effort to do anything because he knew it can only be the life and power of God in his life that accomplishes anything of value.

Living a life totally dependent on the Lord's life in us is living a life of true reverence and awe.
 
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Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
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#46
and you believe that you have to do good in order for God to love and accept you, instead of the proper belief that we are saved by grace through faith for good works, IT IS NOT OF OURSELVES, it is a gift of God. it is so simple, why can't you see it??
Since you said the proper belief then you obviously think that your belief in God is what saves you then you are actually the one saying that you have to do good works in order to be saved..
 
Feb 24, 2015
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#47

Living a life totally dependent on the Lord's life in us is living a life of true reverence and awe.
Do not know what this means. Paul described how he felt, "For me to live is Christ, to die is gain."

When you love your wife, she becomes part of who you are. You can get into arguments and
problems but if you break this link, it is totally devastating.

So all I can say, Christ is my all in all.
Without Him in my life I would be an empty vessel without hope, blown in the wind.

So if Jesus is your Lord and Saviour, then Amen and praise the Lord.
 
Feb 24, 2015
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#48
Spiritual observation

Every perspective in life can add to Christ and our love of Him or detract from it.
If someone thinks God does not overwhelm our constructs and definitions they have
not met the King.

Isaiah was a man of unclean lips.

The angel said to those who were standing before him, “Take off his filthy clothes.” Then he said to Joshua, “See, I have taken away your sin, and I will put fine garments on you.”
Zecharia 3:4

All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.
Isaiah 64:6

“Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the Lord Almighty.”
Isaiah 6:5

To this Lord our knees bow, to His salvation through Christ and the cross we
believe and follow His love.

We are built to eternity, while things of this world fall away we grow into
what we will become.

The enemy will always create a fake version, with condemnation of others,
not realising it is only through our Lord do we discover the reality.

Nothing can stand against Him and His ways. Walk in His ways and find life.
If Jesus is preached Amen, welcome to the Kingdom of God.
 
Feb 24, 2015
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#49
Spiritual and the Natural

God created the natural, not as an alternative to the spiritual but as part of the spiritual
and His kingdom.

Everything we feel has its place and fulfillment in Christ.
To walk with God is not a different life, but the fuller reality of what is.

I did not grasp this until it happened to me. The world knows the shadow of the eternal
but not how to achieve it. We all experience love, but it gets overwhelmed by all the other
emotions of life that smother and destroy it. In desperation and escapism we grab the
closest addiction the numbs the pain.

But in Christ things become real, they find their proper place, order is restored, respect
and authority are understood. The law matters because it reflects the structure of our
lives, but only when we commune with the authority over all, the Lord of Hosts,
are we able to submit in love and humbleness.

In love we rise above our desires, seeing the consequences of our actions and how
love brings fruit into existance, whole human lives born, nurtured and loved, to change
the world. What a privilege, what an honour, that the Lord anoints us with, what a
King.

Those who do not know these realities, preach something other, and in their blindness
condemn the very fruit of Gods word in peoples lives.
 
Dec 9, 2011
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#50
Yes, a sin Is a sin Is a sin, but that sin Is not Imputed to the spirits of just men made perfect.

If a person is not born of the Spirit of GOD, then they are not spiritually In the body of CHRIST and would need to be perfect In their own strength In order to be In right standing before GOD.

For those that believe the WORD of GOD,they are spiritually joined with CHRIST.The perfect standard of righteousness was fulfilled by JESUS who Is on the right hand of our father In heaven and we have access to this grace through faith.

We are In the body of CHRIST and In HIM there Is no darkness.

In the flesh, there Is no good thing, but for those that have been born of the Spirit of GOD, are In the body and are In the light.

If we walk In the light (born of the Spirit) as HE Is In the light, then the blood of JESUS washes us clean of ALL sin.

A person cannot walk In the light If they are not born of the Spirit of GOD.
+++++++++++++
A person who has been born again Is no longer condemned and joined spiritually with GOD,but we are In bodies that have not been glorified as of yet and If that person Is focused more on the flesh than the Spirit they will take that feeling as condemnation but Paul,Inspired by GOD,said,by the mercies of GOD,present your bodies a living sacrifice,holy and acceptable to GOD by the renewing of your mind so that you may prove that good and acceptable and perfect will of GOD.
You're talking about one having a sin consciousness vs. a clear conscience cleansed with Christ's blood. And I completely agree with that. But I'm referring to the work of the Holy Spirit in sanctifying (i.e. making holy) the believer.

It's written that the Holy Spirit seals the believer as well as convicts of sin. How does the Holy Spirit's task (to convict of sin) = a believer's fleshy pursuit of perfection? Or maybe a better question is: What's the point of the Holy Spirit's task if when he convicts of sin, the very act of bringing that sin to the mind of the believer (a reprimand of sorts) is, itself, considered being "carnal minded"?

Could you - or someone - speak on that for me?
I know exactly what you are asking but I don't how to tell you what you want to hear other than
All I can tell you Is that you have been changed on the Inside and you no longer have the desire to sin the way you had before you beecame a new creation,now the Spirit may tell you"don't you want to do the right thing?"and thats why I mentioned that part In
Romans 12:1-2
King James version(KJV)

1.)I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2.)And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

But being born of the Spirit Is first then renew your mind.

Maybe Grace777x70 can help.:)
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#51
I know exactly what you are asking but I don't how to tell you what you want to hear other than
All I can tell you Is that you have been changed on the Inside and you no longer have the desire to sin the way you had before you beecame a new creation,now the Spirit may tell you"don't you want to do the right thing?"and thats why I mentioned that part In
Romans 12:1-2
King James version(KJV)

1.)I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2.)And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

But being born of the Spirit Is first then renew your mind.

Maybe Grace777x70 can help.:)
I agree with you brother that we as new creations in Christ that have new desires and we don't want to sin. The renewing of our minds is so important in order to walk out what already is in us in Christ in the inner man of the heart that is in Christ.

Sin is deceitful too as it distorts our view of God, others as well as ourselves which is why it is so important to hear about Christ's finished work for us so that we can grow up in Him.

We focus on Christ and when we see Him we see who He has made us because we are one with Him in the spirit joined as one. 2 Cor. 3:17-18 and 1 Cor. 6:17

Colossians 3:1-4 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]
Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

[SUP]2 [/SUP] Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.

[SUP]3 [/SUP] For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

[SUP]4 [/SUP] When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.

Here is my take below on the Holy Spirit and John 16: and "convicting" sin of unbelief in the world and "convicting"
the believer of righteousness.

Some have a different view of this but that is perfectly fine for them to have that. If people want to call us heretics, false teachers, lovers of sinning and deceivers because of it - so be it. I'll leave it in the Lord's hands.


The word " convict/reprove/convince/expose" in question has many meanings attached to it as well as our standard church teaching of the Holy Spirit "convicting" of sin in us and of our need for Christ when we first heard of His work on the cross.

It is only used 1 time in KJV as "convict"....it is used more often with the word "to reprove/rebuke/convince"...
the word needs to be looked at in the "context" that it is used...

It is a revealing of things.....to the world the Holy Spirit reveals/convinces/expose their sin of unbelief in Jesus.

To
the believer He reveals/convinces/expose that they are the righteousness of Christ because He went to the Father to stand as our Advocate.

Pay attention to the world ( unbelievers ) and "you" ( believers - remember Jesus was talking to His disciples at the time. ) Remember to always look at who is being spoken to when looking at scripture.

John 16:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "And He, when He comes, will convict the world ( unbelievers ) concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;

[SUP]9 [/SUP] concerning sin, because they ( unbelievers ) do not believe in Me;

[SUP]10 [/SUP] and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you ( believers ) no longer see Me;

1 John 2:1-2 (NASB)
[SUP]1[/SUP] My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

[SUP]2[/SUP] and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.


Here are a few examples of the same exact Greek word for "convict" used in scripture
...as one can clearly see..this word has many uses depending on the context

1 Corinthians 14:24 (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:

Titus 1:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

Matthew 18:15 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

John 8:46 (KJV)
[SUP]46 [/SUP] Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

English Words used in KJV: reprove 6
rebuke 5
convince 4
tell (one's) fault 1
convict 1
[Total Count: 17]

Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.
 
Feb 24, 2015
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#52
I am fuzzy. G7 believes he has a perfect spirit, and just needs to realise this in
his walk. Now either he can, because he is perfect or the flesh, which has been killed
on the cross is still a problem.

But if the flesh has died, why is G7 not perfect already? Or is he saying the flesh has
not died, but need beating up occasionally, like a beast that comes to torment you as
you go along. Maybe a few chains or manicles could help. to constrain this unruly flesh.

But then again the flesh is anything you do for self, or any label you can to put on something
you feel bad about. And just one of these things, if you were not saved, would send you to hell.

So in this idea, you are 99% perfect, but you forgot to pay the bill for you shopping. Sorry,
doomed to hell, to be tortured forever, so close but yet so far.

But you may realise this is a legalists view of sin and rebellion, not a rot the destroys the soul,
that slowly kills and destroys all it touches, because in essense sin is the disease and the cause
is not having communion with God. But this is just too advanced for these guys, because still
Jesus is at a distance and miracle zapping is the name of the game.

But there must be something more than this for Jacob to be chosen and Easu rejected.
Or take Bathsheba, or David, not straight simple people who conformed. They did though love God
and worked their faith through to praise and worship of the King.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#53
Being cleansed of unrighteousness simply means that when we give our lives to Christ, we die to the old man who was enslaved by sin, and born a new man who is free of the chains of sin. It does not mean that the believer will not sin, it simply means that those sins will NOT enslave him into eternal damnation.

It means that being under the Grace of God, and the continual care of our Mediator Jesus Christ, we are not doomed by those sins, but we DO have to repent of them and ask forgiveness for them........and He will be faithful to do what He said He would do, and forgive us........It means the price for our sins has been paid......and forgiveness is just a prayer away.

(my thoughts)
More biblical points here.....I agree
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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#54
The above is a typical failure in understanding God and love.
If love dwells in your heart, you express love without fear, because love removes
the fear in your response.

Fear should be felt by everyone, in terms of respect, awe, wonder at who the Lord
is, and who we are.

Paul expressed fear and trembling

"I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling."
1 cor 2:3

Paul expresses this to show he was not arrogant or presuming the reception he
would receive, but as a weak frail human sharing good news with others in need.

It is a similar thing with pain. Pain tells us to stop doing something but do something
else because we are causing damage to our bodies. Without pain we would destroy
our bodies and not know it.

Now G7 are a group who regard fear as sin or unbelief, and so condemn people who
show respect and fear, even though we are shown fear in this regard is the beginning
of wisdom
.
(I'm late to the convo...was a slow Monday)

Ok. Reading this post does bring to mind a few passages..


Isaiah 11:2
And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;


Proverbs 9:10
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.


Psalm 111:10
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endures for ever.


Philippians 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#55
Reverence and awe for the Lord is the beginning of wisdom! The end of wisdom is Christ Himself. He is the Alpha and the Omega in all things.

1 Corinthians 1:30 (NASB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

I love Phil. 2:12. I especially love the verse that goes with it - verse 13 - "For it is God who is at work in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure". God gives us both the desire and the capability to do His purposes.

Fear and trembling in Phil. 2:12 is misunderstood in my opinion. It means a "lack of trust in one's own abilities." In other words, we are dependent upon Jesus Christ and rest in Him. Look in the Greek and other verses that use that saying, even the apostle Paul spoke of preaching with fear and much trembling, meaning distrusting in his own abilities and relying on the Spirit's power.

It is an interesting to study out in the N.T. the term "fear and trembling". It is not what it was in the O.T.

If we let scripture interpret scripture we see that in the 2 other places where "fear and trembling" was used it referred to the woman with the issue of blood and Jesus healed her. She experienced the goodness and love of Jesus and she had awe and reverence for the goodness done to her.

Mark 5:33 (KJV)
[SUP]33 [/SUP] But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth.


The other usage was Paul and he was referring to having no confidence in himself as he was coming to preach the gospel to the Corinthians. 1 Cor. 2:3-5

Fear and trembling = being in awe and reverence of the goodness of God to us and our complete reliance on Him for all things...especially in preaching the gospel.

It is never being "afraid" of God. It's knowing His love for us that takes away the bad kind of fear.

1 John 4:17-19 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.

[SUP]18 [/SUP] There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]We love, because He first loved us.
 
Feb 24, 2015
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#56

It is never being "afraid" of God. It's knowing His love for us that takes away the bad kind of fear.
The word never is wrong, completely wrong.
The sinner without Christ should be very afraid of God, should fear He who can destroy
both the body and soul in Hell.

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt 10:28

So sin matters, terribly so. But having love in our hearts overcomes sin,
overcomes rebellion, the desire to not conform, the acceptance of limits.

Once love dwells openly in us through Christ and the cross we have no
reason to fear God, because we have become Gods handy work.
Because we have fellowship with God, are one in thought and mind with Him,
there is no fear because we dwell with the King of Kings.
Our walk has become His walk, our desires His desires.

We are though careful not to sin, to walk in Gods ways, to be followers
of the path. But this has become our life blood our dwelling in the most
High, the secret place where we commune with the Father.

If we fall from this as hebrews says

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
Heb 10:26-27

Our fear is constrained by our walk, the love God has planted in our souls and
our communion with Christ.

There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
1 John 4:18

As we walk in righteousness and love we have no punishment in Christ, so no fear.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#57
Unbelievers in Christ's sacrifice for their sins have a lot to be "afraid" of as Hebrews 10 talks about for it is a dreadful thing to stand before our Lord without the blood of Jesus having cleansed us by grace through faith in Christ alone.

We have no punishment because Christ took the punishment for us on the cross. He took the judgment which is where the punishment comes from. There is no punishment from the Lord for those that are in Christ. That is what 1 John 4:17-19 is talking about.

This is why the true gospel of the grace of Christ needs to be proclaimed. It is not a works-based righteousness and until we get a revelation of this truth - we will continue to create a D.I.Y self-righteousness/holiness works-based attempts of living the Christian life and all the while we are in effect denying the work of the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross and resurrection.

This kind of "fear of punishment" is not for the children of God as 1 John 4:17-19 very clearly shows.

If we don't learn to discern the differences we end up with a mixed up Christian that never really grows in the Lord - and we can just become more and more religious in our vain attempts to "make ourselves righteous enough". What a horrible life that is.

The gospel of the grace of Christ with the blood of Jesus and the love of God speak of better things for us that belong to Him. We can rest in His love for us as we learn more about Him and His true character and nature towards us - our reverence and awe for the magnificence of Him increases.
 
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Feb 24, 2015
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#58

This is why the true gospel of the grace of Christ needs to be proclaimed. It is not a works-based righteousness and until we get a revelation of this truth - we will continue to create a D.I.Y self-righteousness/holiness works-based attempts of living the Christian life and all the while we are in effect denying the work of the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross and resurrection.
I have seen the light. The only problem is people creating DIY self righteousness, but
cap crusader G7 will put them right.

If you have not heard about Christ you are not an unbeliever.

I suppose if you are not an unbeliever you must be saved. Yahoo.

Odd that, sinners are not mentioned in G7's diatribe.

Listen to God speaking and you will see the difference.

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.
Rev 21:8

So God includes unbelievers but also sinners.

Wonder why a preacher would leave out what God has commanded.
Maybe because he does not speak for the Lord.