SIN AND THE BELIEVER

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Dec 12, 2013
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#1
I have noticed for some time that there are those on this site who claim to be above sin....they will take a few scriptures out of context to prove their point and then twist, embellish, change and or flat deny all rebuttals made against their deceptive view.....

John was clear....John loved Jesus, wrote 5 books of the New Testement, could not be killed by Rome and finished the bible dia the Revelation of Jesus...He said clearly

If WE say that WE have NO SIN, we are DECEIVED and the TRUTH IS NOT IN US. If WE CONFESS OUR SINS, he is faithful and just to FORGIVE OUR SINS, and clense us from ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.

a) HE included HIMSELF by the use of WE THRICE AND the use of OUR TWICE
b) HE spoke in PRESENT TENSE

THIS CANNOT BE SWEPT UNDER THE RUG in FAVOR of the other verses that seem to CONTRADICT THIS...so there has to be a blending of the two lines of thought...

John also said..Whosever is born of God DOTH NOT COMMIT SIN; FOR HIS SEED REMAINETH IN HIM: and he CANNOT SIN, because HE is born of God.

John was INSPIRED TO WRITE BOTH STATEMENTS AND BOTH STATEMENTS are indicative of and given to BELIEVERS. So which is it...either we DON'T SIN OR WE ARE DECEIVED BECAUSE WE SAY WE HAVE NO SIN....AND IF A BELIEVER CANNOT SIN OR NEVER SINS WHY WOULD JOHN SAY THAT IF WE CONFESS OUR SINS HE WILL FORGIVE OUR SINS<--refer to points A and B above!

So..how do we jive the above lines of thought and truth...

a) It is our SPIRIT that has been BORN AGAIN BY GOD'S SEED DIA THE HOLY SPIRIT.
b) Our ETERNAL, SEALED, BORN AGAIN SPIRIT is still BOUND IN A FALLEN SINFUL DEAD BODY that is not SUBJECT unto the LAW OF GOD amd neither indeed CAN BE
c) Sin is sin is sin and yet there is a DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A (SINGULAR) SIN and a CONTINUAL LIFESTYLE of sin and a NON BIAS study of the words SIN and SINNETH will reveal this...

PAUL WAS CLEAR concerning the internal CONFLICT that takes place in a BELIEVER'S LIFE between the WILLING SPIRIT AND THE WEAK FLESH...JESUS HIMSELF EVEN SPOKE TO THIS IN THE GARDEN BEFORE HE WAS CRUCIFIED!

A BELIEVER WILL FAIL, STUMBLE AND SIN..this does not MEAN THAT THEY LIVE A LIFESTYLE OF CONTINUAL SIN...the bible SPEAKS to this as well....

David as a MAN AFTER GOD'S OWN HEART AND MIND STUMBLED, FAILED AND SINNED WITH the daughter of Sheba and Uriah..

PETER who walked on water STUMBLED, FAILED AND SINNED when he denied the LORD AND CUSSED ABOUT IT..

PETER who raised the dead STUMBLED , FAILED AND SINNED when he played the hypocrite concerning his actions around the Jews and Gentiles of the which PAUL REBUKED HIM TO HIS FACE...

I FOR ONE am tired of those who will embellish, change, highlight certain areas of a quote, misrepresent and or apply things not said by those who hold to the above truths that concern SIN AND HOW EVERY BELIEVER HAS THE ABILITY TO FAIL, STUMBLE AND OR SIN....

FOR THE RECORD...I OR NO ONE I KNOW ADVOCATES A CONTINUAL LIFESTYLE OF SIN, NOR DO WE BELIEVE THAT IT IS OK TO SIN BECAUSE WE ARE SAVED....
 
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Nov 22, 2015
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#2
Well said. The understanding that we are born-again in our inner man which has been cut away from the body of sin which is in the flesh is paramount to growing up in the grace and knowledge of Christ. Col. 2:11

We will always have the flesh and for those that say they never sin by yielding to the flesh are not being honest and are in fact mis-interpreting the scriptures as you say.

If we focus on the flesh - it is like an onion - the more you peel back - the more there is. Focus on Christ and what He has done and the life of Christ will manifest in our lives.

This is all foolishness to the natural mind of man and so they come up with these doctrines like "Sinless perfection in the flesh". This they do by saying that 1 John 3:9 and 1 John 5:18 says that we don't sin because we are in Christ. This is talking about the inner man in Christ - because he is joined as one spirit with the Lord and Jesus cannot sin - not about not sinning by yielding to the flesh.

They also say that if someone sins - they are not born of God because scripture says that if someone sins they are not born of God. Again mi-understanding this scripture causes young Christians to have a ship-wrecked faith.

That's the reason why when anyone asks them if they still sin - they will not answer because it will reveal this false gospel of
"sinless perfection in the flesh" nonsense.

Sometimes it is best just to ignore these types and not interact with them and just post the scripture that shows the truth about how great our salvation is because Jesus Himself is our salvation and the real us is in Him. When we die - the flesh will not be going with us to be with Him. The real us is what is going to be with the Lord.

We are still responsible for what we do with our flesh and we have the Holy Spirit within us to help us with the revelation of the grace and love of Christ towards us.

His life is what transforms us by the Holy Spirit to reflect in our outward behavior what has already happened in the new man in Christ. The new creation created in righteousness and holiness joined as one spirit with the Lord.

DC - I tried to Pm you but you are not set up for me to PM you.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#3
Well said. The understanding that we are born-again in our inner man which has been cut away from the body of sin which is in the flesh is paramount to growing up in the grace and knowledge of Christ. Col. 2:11

We will always have the flesh and for those that say they never sin by yielding to the flesh are not being honest and are in fact mis-interpreting the scriptures as you say.

If we focus on the flesh - it is like an onion - the more you peel back - the more there is. Focus on Christ and what He has done and the life of Christ will manifest in our lives.

This is all foolishness to the natural mind of man and so they come up with these doctrines like "Sinless perfection in the flesh". This they do by saying that 1 John 3:9 and 1 John 5:18 says that we don't sin because we are in Christ. This is talking about the inner man in Christ - because he is joined as one spirit with the Lord and Jesus cannot sin - not about not sinning by yielding to the flesh.

They also say that if someone sins - they are not born of God because scripture says that if someone sins they are not born of God. Again mi-understanding this scripture causes young Christians to have a ship-wrecked faith.

That's the reason why when anyone asks them if they still sin - they will not answer because it will reveal this false gospel of
"sinless perfection in the flesh" nonsense.

Sometimes it is best just to ignore these types and not interact with them and just post the scripture that shows the truth about how great our salvation is because Jesus Himself is our salvation and the real us is in Him. When we die - the flesh will not be going with us to be with Him. The real us is what is going to be with the Lord.

We are still responsible for what we do with our flesh and we have the Holy Spirit within us to help us with the revelation of the grace and love of Christ towards us.

His life is what transforms us by the Holy Spirit to reflect in our outward behavior what has already happened in the new man in Christ. The new creation created in righteousness and holiness joined as one spirit with the Lord.

DC - I tried to Pm you but you are not set up for me to PM you.
Amen to that.....
 
Jan 27, 2013
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#4
the small problem is this.

16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.Romans 5

this action from jesus christ, was are done before you opened your bible.

a free gift of righteousness and the abundance of grace.

yet here we are taking about sin sin sin.


without this righteousness,(jesus action) how did you obtain, that by looking at law, or repentance. when did you save your self, then when did you, have a full understanding to gods meaning of good or bad, and when can we save anyone.

21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.Galatians 2
 
Nov 19, 2016
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#5
If someone sins and repents they are forgiven,and the blood of Christ washes away that sin.

But if someone holds unto a sin,then the blood of Christ will not wash it away,for they will not give it up.

But if someone lives in sin for one year,and then gives it up sincerely,then the blood of Christ washes it away.

If we are led of the Spirit we cannot sin,for we do the things of the Spirit,not the flesh.

If we sin we are not led of the Spirit at that time,but the flesh,but we repent and are led of the Spirit again.

Whether a person believes once saved,always saved,or we can fall from grace,we still might take advantage of God's love,and forgiveness,and sin knowing God will forgive us of that sin.

Although I have a tendency to believe that those that believe once saved.always saved,will engage in sin more often,or not give up sin,which I can say from personal observation of those that believe once saved,always saved,that I have not seen one that was not worldly,although they have a great love for Jesus,and appreciative of Him,but people that believe we can fall from grace might sin too,for they know they can be forgiven,and might take advantage of that.
 

Yonah

Senior Member
Oct 31, 2014
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#6
I am not sinless but I sin less and that only by His strength .
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#7
I am not sinless but I sin less and that only by His strength .
Absolutely..where sin abounds...GRACE DID MUCH MORE ABOUND....many have no clue what this means!
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
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#8
It is only grace in the believers life that allows them to flee from sin.

If Jesus has not forgiven sin past present and future.. for the believer.. then they are still in bondage to sin.

Fleeing from sin does not work if the relationship to Christ is not secure and eternal.

How do you flee from lust? By thinking on Jesus' life, death and resurrection.. His payment for you, not by trying to achieve a better state of being under your own steam.. that never works.

Someone trying to achieve a better state of being may last for a short while.. but then what? It isn't empowered by Jesus grace.. so even if they do quit a sin for time.. it's not really quitting..because they are sinning by not thinking on Christ!
 
Dec 9, 2011
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#9
If someone sins and repents they are forgiven,and the blood of Christ washes away that sin.

But if someone holds unto a sin,then the blood of Christ will not wash it away,for they will not give it up.

But if someone lives in sin for one year,and then gives it up sincerely,then the blood of Christ washes it away.

If we are led of the Spirit we cannot sin,for we do the things of the Spirit,not the flesh.

If we sin we are not led of the Spirit at that time,but the flesh,but we repent and are led of the Spirit again.

Whether a person believes once saved,always saved,or we can fall from grace,we still might take advantage of God's love,and forgiveness,and sin knowing God will forgive us of that sin.

Although I have a tendency to believe that those that believe once saved.always saved,will engage in sin more often,or not give up sin,which I can say from personal observation of those that believe once saved,always saved,that I have not seen one that was not worldly,although they have a great love for Jesus,and appreciative of Him,but people that believe we can fall from grace might sin too,for they know they can be forgiven,and might take advantage of that.
After salvation,we should renew our minds to reflect the change that took place In our born again spirit and grace does not teach a person to want to practice sin.
 
Sep 3, 2016
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#10
Whenever you do something wrong, and it’s obvious that it’s wrong, you feel it in your spirit. You sense it. The Holy Spirit is grieved. The Holy Spirit convicts you of that thing you did wrong.

A child of God is not saved in sin, he’s saved from sin. And while sin may be something that happens once in a while, it is not a constant occurrence in the heart and life of the believer. If there is something wrong, the Holy Spirit convicts you, where you are.

When Simon Peter denied the Lord, and Jesus came by and looked at him; Peter went out and wept bitterly — that was the Holy Spirit convicting Peter of what he had done.
 
Dec 9, 2011
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#11
It is only grace in the believers life that allows them to flee from sin.

If Jesus has not forgiven sin past present and future.. for the believer.. then they are still in bondage to sin.

Fleeing from sin does not work if the relationship to Christ is not secure and eternal.

How do you flee from lust? By thinking on Jesus' life, death and resurrection.. His payment for you, not by trying to achieve a better state of being under your own steam.. that never works.

Someone trying to achieve a better state of being may last for a short while.. but then what? It isn't empowered by Jesus grace.. so even if they do quit a sin for time.. it's not really quitting..because they are sinning by not thinking on Christ!
Yes,we need to be conscience of our right standing before GOD as we renew our minds to the new creation we have become,GOD's workmanship created In CHRIST JESUS unto good works.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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#12
I wonder if our working out our salvation is actually being delivered constantly from a natural mind that thinks we can be good enough to please God by our efforts?
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
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New Zealand
#14
I wonder if our working out our salvation is actually being delivered constantly from a natural mind that thinks we can be good enough to please God by our efforts?
Yeah.. that would be part of it.

A key thing with 'working out your own salvation with fear and trembling'.. is you gotta think.. what kind of salvation is this talking about?

The word 'salvation' doesn't always mean 'eternal salvation.. conversion..' but could be about 'salvaging your life to Christ' or 'daily faith in Christ'
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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#15
I asked this question a long time ago, and in context to the OP I'm interested to know what you all think about it:

Do you believe it's possible to avoid sinning against God for just one day? What about for just the 12 or so hours you're awake in the day? Or do you believe we cant help but to sin daily?

If you believe we can stop sinning for at least one day, is it possible to repeat it the next day?

If you believe *we can't help but to sin*, how exactly did Christ "set us free from sin's bondage" from your point of view?

What exactly is God's grace and his Holy Spirit for?

Remember that Christ had God's grace and Holy Spirit during his ministry - the same gifts offered to us - and yet did not sin all his life, even though he also had the same flesh from Adam that tempted him in all ways we are tempted. I mean, we can't say he was sinless because he was God, right? Because scripture says he "emptied himself" taking the form of a man. So to me that says while down here all he only had what's also been given to us right?

I believe these gifts (God's grace and Holy Spirit) are for us to live holy, *righteously*, and with *self-control* in this present world (Titus 2:12), exactly like Christ did.

And by the way, let me just confess that I sinned just last night (to my shame), so im no saint...not at all. But I do believe from what ive studied of scripture that the goal is to one day become so mature in using God's gifts that I stop sinning prior to my death or Christ's return, whichever comes first. I believe it's the "good work" Christ began in me and is working to complete until he returns: to stop sinning, which scripture says he will finish.
 
Oct 31, 2016
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#16
yet here we are taking about sin sin sin
The thing to remember is... God's Word teaches that the Kingdom of God works on seedtime and harvest. ( Genesis 8:22, Mark 4:26, Matthew 13:24, Galatians 6:7-8, Romans 5:14-21, Isaiah 3:10-11, Romans 2:7, Matthew 3:10, Matthew 7:17-20, Hebrews 6:8, Matthew 7:19, John 15:1-15 ).

And, let's not forget Mark 4:13-20 which is Jesus' classic teaching on seedtime and harvest where He boldly states that if one does not understand this teaching, how can they understand all teachings in God's Word.

Just because someone gets saved does not mean we are 100% sin free and are no longer capable of committing sin. No, we should not be thinking of sin all the time, but we should be sensitive to the Holy Spirit and confess / repent from sin as He identifies things in our lives that are sinful. You know, admit it, and quit it! :cool:

The who false / extreme grace thing (taught by numerous popular TV preachers) is a trap of the devil because it sounds good on the surface but claims what we sow is not what we reap because as they say "all future sin is automatically forgiven"

For that to be true, then God would have to have suspended seedtime and harvest once we got born again and there is no evidence of that from scripture.

Yes, it's true that once we get saved ALL sin up to that point is washed away, and going forward any new sin we commit is washed away ONLY if we confess and forsake the sin (Proverbs 28:13, 1 John 1:9)... which is why the false / extreme grace teaching is so dangerous because it tricks Christians in to never ever confessing and repenting of their sin which is why more and more sinful lifestyles are being accepted today among those claiming to be Christians.
 
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p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
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#17
Only read the OP so far........but, it has been a long time since I could say I fully agree with one of your posts........wait.... hmm........musta read it wrong?
:)


I have noticed for some time that there are those on this site who claim to be above sin....they will take a few scriptures out of context to prove their point and then twist, embellish, change and or flat deny all rebuttals made against their deceptive view.....

John was clear....John loved Jesus, wrote 5 books of the New Testement, could not be killed by Rome and finished the bible dia the Revelation of Jesus...He said clearly

If WE say that WE have NO SIN, we are DECEIVED and the TRUTH IS NOT IN US. If WE CONFESS OUR SINS, he is faithful and just to FORGIVE OUR SINS, and clense us from ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.

a) HE included HIMSELF by the use of WE THRICE AND the use of OUR TWICE
b) HE spoke in PRESENT TENSE

THIS CANNOT BE SWEPT UNDER THE RUG in FAVOR of the other verses that seem to CONTRADICT THIS...so there has to be a blending of the two lines of thought...

John also said..Whosever is born of God DOTH NOT COMMIT SIN; FOR HIS SEED REMAINETH IN HIM: and he CANNOT SIN, because HE is born of God.

John was INSPIRED TO WRITE BOTH STATEMENTS AND BOTH STATEMENTS are indicative of and given to BELIEVERS. So which is it...either we DON'T SIN OR WE ARE DECEIVED BECAUSE WE SAY WE HAVE NO SIN....AND IF A BELIEVER CANNOT SIN OR NEVER SINS WHY WOULD JOHN SAY THAT IF WE CONFESS OUR SINS HE WILL FORGIVE OUR SINS<--refer to points A and B above!

So..how do we jive the above lines of thought and truth...

a) It is our SPIRIT that has been BORN AGAIN BY GOD'S SEED DIA THE HOLY SPIRIT.
b) Our ETERNAL, SEALED, BORN AGAIN SPIRIT is still BOUND IN A FALLEN SINFUL DEAD BODY that is not SUBJECT unto the LAW OF GOD amd neither indeed CAN BE
c) Sin is sin is sin and yet there is a DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A (SINGULAR) SIN and a CONTINUAL LIFESTYLE of sin and a NON BIAS study of the words SIN and SINNETH will reveal this...

PAUL WAS CLEAR concerning the internal CONFLICT that takes place in a BELIEVER'S LIFE between the WILLING SPIRIT AND THE WEAK FLESH...JESUS HIMSELF EVEN SPOKE TO THIS IN THE GARDEN BEFORE HE WAS CRUCIFIED!

A BELIEVER WILL FAIL, STUMBLE AND SIN..this does not MEAN THAT THEY LIVE A LIFESTYLE OF CONTINUAL SIN...the bible SPEAKS to this as well....

David as a MAN AFTER GOD'S OWN HEART AND MIND STUMBLED, FAILED AND SINNED WITH the daughter of Sheba and Uriah..

PETER who walked on water STUMBLED, FAILED AND SINNED when he denied the LORD AND CUSSED ABOUT IT..

PETER who raised the dead STUMBLED , FAILED AND SINNED when he played the hypocrite concerning his actions around the Jews and Gentiles of the which PAUL REBUKED HIM TO HIS FACE...

I FOR ONE am tired of those who will embellish, change, highlight certain areas of a quote, misrepresent and or apply things not said by those who hold to the above truths that concern SIN AND HOW EVERY BELIEVER HAS THE ABILITY TO FAIL, STUMBLE AND OR SIN....

FOR THE RECORD...I OR NO ONE I KNOW ADVOCATES A CONTINUAL LIFESTYLE OF SIN, NOR DO WE BELIEVE THAT IT IS OK TO SIN BECAUSE WE ARE SAVED....
 
Feb 28, 2016
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#18
Yes, we certainly believe that the Holy Spirit can teach us to not sin every day, but we are taken
on our new journey one-day-at-a-time, meaning, that we are taught how to 'over-come' our
worldly weaknesses in this way...and Yes, we can definitely 'over-come' our past sins and become
the 'new man-woman that Christ has given us the strength and courage and Faith to become...

MARK 10:27.
And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God:
for with God all things are possible.
 
F

FinnGottlieb

Guest
#19
I agree with what you say. However, I thought because we are weak in the flesh, we live a continual lifestyle of sin, because we continue to sin throughout our life. Even people mentioned in the Bible sin throughout their lifetime, the only exception is Jesus. Can you explain the difference between sin and a lifestyle of sin?
 
Dec 9, 2011
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#20
I asked this question a long time ago, and in context to the OP I'm interested to know what you all think about it:

Do you believe it's possible to avoid sinning against God for just one day? What about for just the 12 or so hours you're awake in the day? Or do you believe we cant help but to sin daily?

If you believe we can stop sinning for at least one day, is it possible to repeat it the next day?
You might be able to not sin for a period of time outwardly by your own will-power like the Pharisees did but what about not sinning even In thought?

GOD requires perfection.

GOD looks at your heart,Its a good thing to be In the process of renewing your mind to the new creation you have become spiritually In the body of CHRIST but faith pleases GOD,JESUS already paid for our sins and someone feeling condemned because they sinned In the flesh today Is,whether they know It or not someone trying to perfect the Spirit with the flesh,

The person should be focused on their right standing spiritually In the body of CHRIST and not focused so much on their physical actions of not sinning because GOD sees the spirit of the reborn person and the spirit that GOD sees Is saved and sealed.

When It comes to loving your neighbor,thats when,the person should try not to sin.