"replacement theology" - what is it?

[Ahwatukee]

1. Because of the context. Revelation is a prophetic book working with symbols. Its the way of its communication with us. Symbolic reading is the natural one. And it makes no difficulty. It makes perfect sense.

Hi trofimus,

While the book of Revelation is, for the most part, a prophetic book, it should be read in the literal sense until a symbolic interpretation is obvious. One of the biggest problems with expositors today is symbolizing information that is meant to be literal. When this is done, it distorts the meaning that God means to convey. I tell you, the book of Revelation is more literal than it is symbolic. All of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be literal events.

2. I dont think the literal meaning makes a good sense. The city would look like a perfect giant bright cube. With some tree needed for healing of nations etc.

That is not just some tree, but is the tree of life, which is also mentioned as being in Eden with Adam and Eve. This would support this as being the literal tree of life.

A giant cube is how John describes it, for he says that the city is laid out like a square.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The book of Revelation covers from the birth of Christ all the way to the end.

The book of Revelation does not even mention the birth of Christ. It does however mention the birth of the male child, which is not representing Christ, but is a collective name for the 144,000.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Blade I hope you realize that in verse 20 God said THEY PROFANED HIS HOLY NAME when they told the heathen "THESE ARE THE PEOPLE OF THE LORD".

In simple English.... Israel told the heathen "We are the people of the Lord". God said that by CLAIMING to be his people, they PROFANED God's holy name.

Ezekiel 36:20 KJV
And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the Lord , and are gone forth out of his land.

Of course they did, They profained the name of the Lord because they were in sin, and rejected God for who he was. This was the promlem in the NT when they fought the church like they did. Claiming they were Gods people.. When their messiah was there and they rejected him.

The church made the same mistake really, The roman church claims they are the people of God. and only through them can one enter in. And here we have today a history of the church and Israel fighting and hating on each other trying to take the name of God, when neither one represent the true God of heaven and his holy name.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

How can the angel measure the temple in Revelations 11 then kjv?

Thats the pproblem WHen literal interpretation does not fit your belief system. You make it a symbolic event.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You seem to always forget that Abraham was the father of many nations and you always attribute everything to the flesh descendants. Which children is the verse you posted talking about, the flesh children or the children of the promise?

I think history shows that when people cursed the flesh children, they were punished prety bad.

God said, when a gentile nation comes against his people. To punish them, WHen he is done, he will punish the gentile nation severely.

My neighbor is a palestinian. He at times wants me to judge Israel because of they way their family has been treated. I use that verse. I wil not go against any of Abrahams children, Whether of Jacob, or Ishmael or whoever.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Abraham was the father of many nations, when you see verses like the one below, it's talking about the children of the promise, not the children of the flesh.

Deuteronomy 7:6-7 KJV
For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. [7] The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:


Verses like the one below is talking about the children of the flesh.

Exodus 33:3 KJV
Unto a land flowing with milk and honey: for I will not go up in the midst of thee; for thou art a stiffnecked people: lest I consume thee in the way.

Both are children of the flesh. National Israel has always been small in number, the left Egypt. they were hardly big enough to be considered a nation, or military threat to anyone.

when he chose them, they were one family (abraham, his wife, and his son) Thats prety small!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I forgot to mention this earlier but the one's lised in the 3rd verse of the 33rd chapter(what a coincidence lol) of Exodus, these are the ENEMIES of the gospel. The ones in the 7th chapter (another coincidence) of Deuteronomy, these are the ELECT of God.

Use that principle when reading this verse.

Romans 11:28 KJV
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Or better yet, Use context of romans 11 to interpret the verse.

Is God done with Isreal.

Isreal is our enemy (they reject the gospel) but at the same time, Beloved according to the promise (Gods gift are irrevocable)

 

[dcontroversal]

Both are children of the flesh. National Israel has always been small in number, the left Egypt. they were hardly big enough to be considered a nation, or military threat to anyone.

when he chose them, they were one family (abraham, his wife, and his son) Thats prety small!!

600,000 able bodied men over 20 who could fight...not counting women and children.......

 

[dcontroversal]

The book of Revelation does not even mention the birth of Christ. It does however mention the birth of the male child, which is not representing Christ, but is a collective name for the 144,000.

I like some things you say, this however I disagree with...the context seems to clearly indicate Jesus because

a) Israel will not rule with a rod of Iron neither will the 144,000
b) Her child is singular not plural

And she brought forth a MAN CHILD, who was to RULE all NATIONS with a Rod Of IRON: and her child was caught up unto God, and to HIS THRONE......

This is Jesus, not the 144,000

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Rom 11:9:
"What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, as it is written...:
"May their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever."

So, according to Paul, this place in Psalm 69 is about the Israel. Let us look at this place, verses 20-29:

--------

Psalm 69:20

1.
Scorn has broken my heart and has left me helpless; I looked for sympathy, but there was none, for comforters, but I found none.
They put gall in my food and gave me vinegar for my thirst.
- [Seems to me Christ is talking, not David]

2.
May the table set before them become a snare; may it become retribution and a trap.
May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever.

3.
Pour out your wrath on them; let your fierce anger overtake them.
May their place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in their tents.

4.
For they persecute those you wound and talk about the pain of those you hurt.

5.
May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous.
Charge them with crime upon crime; do not let them share in your salvation.

6.
But as for me, afflicted and in pain-- may your salvation, God, protect me. [Christ]

--------


What do dispensionalists think about all this? How does it fit with the idea that all the people of physical Israel will be saved in the future?

Ez 37 about does it.

It shoes these very eventa happen. Then Shows God bring them back together and make them one nation again.

There are many other passages which say the same.

When are you people going to realise you do not make a doctrine out of one passage?

As for the passage, It did happen in 70 AD. God did exactly as he said he would. And continually they are darkened (in part) and they are shaking, because they have never had peace since then, Their city and sanctuary lies desolate (even today)

As for physical Israel saved in the future, . Paul said they would be, Take him at his word.. Period!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hm, why do you think that the Revelation should be taken literally? The city there seems to be the church.

It does?

WHY do you think it should be the church?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

From what?

"Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem..."

We know who is the wife of the Christ - church.

"The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb."

Twelve apostles are the gates to Church, because of their gospel preaching to whole the world.

Etc, etc. Every description fits the Church perfectly.

He showed them a city where the church will reside.

The city is literal. Not symbolic.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If "country" means heaven, the "city" can mean the people of God - church

Because the city is in the country. And Church will be in heaven.


Well, we will see in the end...

This is the attitude we all should take. No one should demand they are right, and condemn others for what they think.

Thats the problem and why we have been so heated.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Abraham was the father of 3 nations so we have to figure out which nation is being talked about by the context of the verses. The chldren of the promise were not a stiff-necked generation and the flesh descedants weren't the elect. It's easy to see which group is being taked about in scripture and it's not cherry picking.

Abrahams people complained the moment the left Egypt. Yet God still parted the red sea, Gave them food and drink, led them by a cloud and pillar of fire. Defeated their enemies, And eventually Gave them what he promised their fathers.

Yes, I would say th eelect people were stiff necked from the begining.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yeah, Church had 12 gates during the Israel's era and 12 foundation during the era of gospel.

I am not sure what 1400 and various gems symbolize, but I think somebody who study such things will know.

I am not saying it can not be a literal city, too. I dont know, maybe.

But the symbolic meaning is almost certain.

Isreal has 12 sons, 12 tribes. Just saying, For some reason God uses the number 12 to represent both.

One question I look forward to getting an answer to when I get to heaven.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If Jesus rebuilt the Temple, then the Church is the Temple.

Remember what the temple represented.

Man had been seperated from God. the only way to come to God was through the temple.. Sacrifice had to be made in the inner sanctum, When only a high priest and only after completely cleansed himself. could he go in and make atonement for the people.

The temple is christ. Not the church.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

600,000 able bodied men over 20 who could fight...not counting women and children.......

Abraham Sarah And Issac - 600,000 people? (which is when God chose them)

They were slaves to egypt. There number had to be "small" in nature. as compared to the powers that be So if they were 600000 then egypt must have been huge, Syria at the time was also quite large. .

The point being made was God did not chose Egypt or Assyria, or another large already established powerful nation, He chose a family and grew that family into a nation.

 

[garee]

Maybe I am being stupid. I don't see how a physical city is precluded by it being the Church.

We simply have moved from the buildings (the temple) being the defining characteristic, to the people (believers) being the defining characteristic.

Because the time of reformation has come, we no longer look to the ceremonial laws that pointed ahead to the time of reformation. On this side of it believers are considered the temple of God. The way to the Holy of Holiness using those metaphors that made up the temporal was no longer needed. God who has no form was no longer being represented by that seen.

Right from the beginning we can see the Bible using architectural metaphors to describe His wife the church. Cities in respect to the residents were built to show that who they are founded after, Cain became the founder of the City Canaan, as the Canaanites .Philippi became the founder of the city of the Philippians as to the residents that make it up. Just as Enoch

Gen 4:17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builder a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.

While God has named His people, His bride, Christian, named after His Son Christ, the new name He named His people because the time of reformation had come. Giving us a better understanding how cites relate to souls as residents thereof.

The New Jerusalem not seen, the city of Christ is shown prepared as His bride. He describes the heavenly Jerusalem as the married land. And as in all parables it is represented by the temporal land as that seen the earthly Jerusalem.

2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

When looking at Mark we are informed by the Spirit of Christ ,that whenever Christ brought the gospel He spoke in parables using the temporal things of this world, as that seen to speak of the eternal as that not seen. The faith principle needed to rightfully divide His spiritual truths. And therefore without a parable He spoke not.

Since Christ is eternal God not seen He is the sole author of the Bible. I believe we should anticipate searching for the hidden meaning as the kind of language God has designed. We can expect while we are given historical information of events that did occur there is another understanding (spiritual) hidden from natural unconverted men.

Like for instance when Christ would perform a miracle. The miracle actually happened but again the spiritual significance is hid from the lost and therefore through a miracle He is teaching us the very nature of salvation.(not seen)

I would be careful with those who insist we dismiss the spiritual understand for one that would be literal, as if the kingdom of God was of this world. And the temporal has already become the eternal, as if the kingdom of God was of the world

 

[Ahwatukee]

a) Israel will not rule with a rod of Iron neither will the 144,000

Hello dcontroversal,

There are three who are said that will rule with a rod of iron

Believers who overcome:

"To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations—that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery —just as I have received authority from my Father."

The Male child/144,000:

"She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.

The Lord Jesus:

"The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter."

In Rev.14, it says the following regarding the 144,000:
"No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins."

The scripture above reveals that the 144,000 are all males, ergo, male child. These 144,000 come out of Israel (gives birth to) and will be caught up to God's throne in the middle of the seven years.

Another truth is that Jesus does not fit the criteria of the male child.

144,000 = Escapes from the dragon/Satan by being caught up to God's throne unharmed and out of the dragon's reach

Jesus = Jesus did not escape, but was crucified and resurrected three days later.

Jesus does not fit the criteria of the male child. The Spirit has lead me to understand that the male child is a collective name for the 144,000 who will be the first fruits to God out of Israel.

 

[trofimus]

I dont think your response is relevant to the Psalm I quoted.

As for physical Israel saved in the future, . Paul said they would be, Take him at his word.. Period!

May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever.

May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous.
Charge them with crime upon crime; do not let them share in your salvation.

I take all the words, not just one verse. When one verse says most of Israel will not be saved and one says all the Israel will be saved, we must find some solution, not pick up just one verse and ignore the other.

So the best solution I think is to say Paul meant the real Israel - the spiritual one.