Tongues???
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How would you respond if a preacher told the same story, but the issue was talking about Jesus? Kind of like in the military, where you can pray to God, but in some contexts, a chaplain could face some flack for mentioning Jesus. That's a more extreme example, but it illustrates that there is a time where you have to say you obey God rather than man. I Corinthians 14 contains 'commandments of the Lord' for church meetings. Allowing tongues is part of that passage. We are not at liberty to disobey God. These spiritual gifts are not 'denominational.' They are Biblical.
If he'd not made an issue of it, the prison officials may not have either. I don't know; I wasn't there, but a simple answer regarding following what the Bible teaches about church meetings may have sufficed.
As far as the fear of getting shut down is concerned, you just obey the Lord. If He wants doors open, He can open them or keep them open.
If he'd not made an issue of it, the prison officials may not have either. I don't know; I wasn't there, but a simple answer regarding following what the Bible teaches about church meetings may have sufficed.
As far as the fear of getting shut down is concerned, you just obey the Lord. If He wants doors open, He can open them or keep them open.
I already showed you the error in your thinking. Your implication that another poster is wrong, since he disagrees with you, suggesting that really, all he needs to do is spend more time in study and contemplation, and THEN he'll see the light, and agree with YOU.... because, of course YOU are right, and HE is wrong.
Your not-so-subtle hint that he probably hasn't spent any/enough time studying, or meditating, otherwise he would have come to the same conclusions you had.
This is arrogance, and condescension, and is most unseemly. And, irritating.
Your not-so-subtle hint that he probably hasn't spent any/enough time studying, or meditating, otherwise he would have come to the same conclusions you had.
This is arrogance, and condescension, and is most unseemly. And, irritating.
Not everything in this world is quite so black and white. Yes, we should always stand for Jesus, but I expect that he expects us to use judgment in how we do it.
Some friends of mine went to China with a "teaching" group, to teach English. They were expressly forbidden to teach Christianity, but were allowed to use the Bible in their English lessons. Hundreds, if not thousands have been converted through this ministry.... what success do you think they would have had if, once in China, they stood up and proudly witnessed for Christ, at every opportunity. How long do YOU think they would have remained in that country, if they had piously thumbed their noses at the rules of the Chinese government?
Winning a battle and losing the war is not a good strategy...
Some friends of mine went to China with a "teaching" group, to teach English. They were expressly forbidden to teach Christianity, but were allowed to use the Bible in their English lessons. Hundreds, if not thousands have been converted through this ministry.... what success do you think they would have had if, once in China, they stood up and proudly witnessed for Christ, at every opportunity. How long do YOU think they would have remained in that country, if they had piously thumbed their noses at the rules of the Chinese government?
Winning a battle and losing the war is not a good strategy...
We had to take an oath and sign a document agreeing to go by all of the Institutions rules. I quickly gained the respect of all the Prison Officials, because they KNEW they could trust me to go the RULES of the INSTITUTION. Over the 15 year period, I saw at least three hyper charismatics lose their ID badges for VIOLATING RULES and one was even a Pastor of a local Charismatic Church, and another one, after I had escorted him in several times while I trained him, actually quit because the number on his ID Badge showed up having three 6's in a row in the number. And they all claimed they are obeying GOD and not men. So did they take a coupon cutter and cut these verses out of these verses out of their Bibles?
1 Peter 2:13-16 (NKJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, {That includes Prison Rules and the Posted Speed Limit.} whether to the king as supreme,
[SUP]14 [/SUP] or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men--
[SUP]16 [/SUP] as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God.
Romans 13:1-8 (NKJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.
Proverbs 6:16-19 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
[SUP]17 [/SUP] A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
[SUP]18 [/SUP] An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
[SUP]19 [/SUP] A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
With the attitude you displayed in your post, I would say betting that you would lose you Prison ID Badge the first month, is just about a SURE THING.
1 Peter 2:13-16 (NKJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, {That includes Prison Rules and the Posted Speed Limit.} whether to the king as supreme,
[SUP]14 [/SUP] or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men--
[SUP]16 [/SUP] as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God.
Romans 13:1-8 (NKJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.
Proverbs 6:16-19 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
[SUP]17 [/SUP] A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
[SUP]18 [/SUP] An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
[SUP]19 [/SUP] A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
With the attitude you displayed in your post, I would say betting that you would lose you Prison ID Badge the first month, is just about a SURE THING.
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VCO
My initial post on this was a bit of a reaction to the snarkiness, your addressing the guy pulicly, your assuming things about the text you couldn't justify, and doctrinal error.
I realize when you are doing ministry in a rather controlled environment with a lot of rules. And I do understand your concern. Of course, you were against speaking in tongues and interpreting it in this day and age, so you did not weigh it the same way as someone who was wrestling with what the scripture has to say on the matter as if it actually applied to them.
The Bible never commands us, "When thou teachest an English class, yeah, though must teach the Bible and preach the Gospel while in the class." But the Bible does give commands regarding how to do church. If it is something the Lord has not commanded us to do, we have liberty.
I Corinthians 14
26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
It says to 'let' and you were forbidding.
27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
and
37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
What better example of violating this verse could there be than being in a church service and forbidding someone from speaking in tongues and interpreting in line with the commandments in the passage:
39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
When you are faced with a commandment of the Lord, how must you respond to lesser authorities, though established by God who oppose your obeying commandments of the Lord.
Acts 5:29
Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
But we do not know if it would have come to that. You could say nothing in a situation like that when there is a tongue and interpretation. If the warden or guards say something, you could take the approach Daniel and his companions took about eating food from the king's table, and tried to work something out. But i realize you were not theologically predisposed to do so.
Btw, I've seen a lot of missionaries who are super security concerned, work very slowly. Some missionaries, I hear, promote synchretism, and their mean motivation seems to be fear of persecution, for themselves, and for others. Maybe they are afraid of being kicked out. Then there are missionaries working with the same types of people who believe in boldness who really succeed.
Publicly forbidding speaking in tongues is just as 'denominational' as allowing it. People across a vast array of denominations and many independent churches allow for tongues and interpretation. The early church did. The apostle Paul taught it.
Don't you see how your theological reasoning and assumptions you bring into the text has led you into direct conflict with the commandments of the Lord. And you seem proud about it rather than ashamed. Your post wasn't a post of 'Look at my past sins'.
My initial post on this was a bit of a reaction to the snarkiness, your addressing the guy pulicly, your assuming things about the text you couldn't justify, and doctrinal error.
I realize when you are doing ministry in a rather controlled environment with a lot of rules. And I do understand your concern. Of course, you were against speaking in tongues and interpreting it in this day and age, so you did not weigh it the same way as someone who was wrestling with what the scripture has to say on the matter as if it actually applied to them.
The Bible never commands us, "When thou teachest an English class, yeah, though must teach the Bible and preach the Gospel while in the class." But the Bible does give commands regarding how to do church. If it is something the Lord has not commanded us to do, we have liberty.
I Corinthians 14
26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
It says to 'let' and you were forbidding.
27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
and
37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
What better example of violating this verse could there be than being in a church service and forbidding someone from speaking in tongues and interpreting in line with the commandments in the passage:
39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
When you are faced with a commandment of the Lord, how must you respond to lesser authorities, though established by God who oppose your obeying commandments of the Lord.
Acts 5:29
Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
But we do not know if it would have come to that. You could say nothing in a situation like that when there is a tongue and interpretation. If the warden or guards say something, you could take the approach Daniel and his companions took about eating food from the king's table, and tried to work something out. But i realize you were not theologically predisposed to do so.
Btw, I've seen a lot of missionaries who are super security concerned, work very slowly. Some missionaries, I hear, promote synchretism, and their mean motivation seems to be fear of persecution, for themselves, and for others. Maybe they are afraid of being kicked out. Then there are missionaries working with the same types of people who believe in boldness who really succeed.
Publicly forbidding speaking in tongues is just as 'denominational' as allowing it. People across a vast array of denominations and many independent churches allow for tongues and interpretation. The early church did. The apostle Paul taught it.
Don't you see how your theological reasoning and assumptions you bring into the text has led you into direct conflict with the commandments of the Lord. And you seem proud about it rather than ashamed. Your post wasn't a post of 'Look at my past sins'.
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And I and most of the mainline Churches think Charismatics and Pentecostals have errored in how they interpret 1 Corinthians.
Can't you in the interest of peace and love, agree to disagree already? Why must this subject always generate so much hate and bitterness from your side of the fence?
And just so you know most of the Churches that I have been affiliated with are those associated with the Independent Fundamental Churches of America, and NONE of them believe in the Charismatic Tongues.
Can't you in the interest of peace and love, agree to disagree already? Why must this subject always generate so much hate and bitterness from your side of the fence?
And just so you know most of the Churches that I have been affiliated with are those associated with the Independent Fundamental Churches of America, and NONE of them believe in the Charismatic Tongues.
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LOL, that is a good one! But seriously I was in the Christian Book Store one time, when the owner was there alone, and was super busy at the Cash Register. She had an elderly lady come in wanting to look at Bibles. The owner asked me to show her the Bibles, because she knew I knew as much about what she had on hand as she did. I asked the elderly lady what kind of Bible she was looking for and she said, "Well the King James of course, because that is the language our Lord spoke." I made the mistake of telling her, "No, Jesus spoke Hebrew and maybe Greek depending on His education growing up." She got upset and walked out. I apologized to the owner for blowing the sale.
That was not what was said VCO. I do not know hornetguy nor does he know me. There's no way he can say what is in my mind. He attacked me not what I said.
For the record, I don't see where any of us who have a prayer language has been angry in their posts. We just are wanting you all to have what we've found to be a wonderful blessing from the Lord. It's for anyone who's been born again.
And it's love for the brethren that's the motivation.
For the record, I don't see where any of us who have a prayer language has been angry in their posts. We just are wanting you all to have what we've found to be a wonderful blessing from the Lord. It's for anyone who's been born again.
And it's love for the brethren that's the motivation.
No Thank You, Jesus forbade using a private prayer language, because that is what they did in the Mystery Religions popular at the time of Christ:
Matthew 6:7 (NIV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] And when you pray, do not keep on babbling [battalogeo] like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.
Matthew 6:8 (NIV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
Matthew 6:9-13 (NIV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] "This, then, is how you should pray: "'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name,
[SUP]10 [/SUP] your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Give us today our daily bread.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.'
To me that makes it VERY CLEAR that praying in a babbling prayer language is being disobedient to the commands of JESUS.
If anyone wants to learn more about where the Charismatics went wrong, I can highly recommend this book available on Amazon.com:
H
If you're just saying nothing you can't possibly be speaking words asking for needs. Your statement is faulty
No Thank You, Jesus forbade using a private prayer language, because that is what they did in the Mystery Religions popular at the time of Christ:
Matthew 6:7 (NIV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And when you pray, do not keep on babbling [battalogeo] like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.
Matthew 6:8 (NIV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
Matthew 6:9-13 (NIV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] "This, then, is how you should pray: "'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name,
[SUP]10 [/SUP] your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Give us today our daily bread.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.'
To me that makes it VERY CLEAR that praying in a babbling prayer language is being disobedient to the commands of JESUS.
If anyone wants to learn more about where the Charismatics went wrong, I can highly recommend this book available on Amazon.com:
Matthew 6:7 (NIV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And when you pray, do not keep on babbling [battalogeo] like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.
Matthew 6:8 (NIV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
Matthew 6:9-13 (NIV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] "This, then, is how you should pray: "'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name,
[SUP]10 [/SUP] your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Give us today our daily bread.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.'
To me that makes it VERY CLEAR that praying in a babbling prayer language is being disobedient to the commands of JESUS.
If anyone wants to learn more about where the Charismatics went wrong, I can highly recommend this book available on Amazon.com:
Are you really that obtuse, or do you simply want to argue?
Of course nobody knows what is in your mind..... except by the things you SAY. And my posts toward you were criticizing you for WHAT YOU SAID, AND HOW YOU SAID IT. <<<< Did you GET that? Finally?
I am criticizing your arrogance and condescension against another poster. If you did not mean your comments that way, then you should apologize and move on.
This is a public forum, where we, as adults, use words to convey our thoughts. If your words come across as arrogant, guess what? You'll be perceived as arrogant.... no matter WHAT is in your heart, or head.
I have not attacked YOU at all... I don't KNOW you. You might be a very nice person, face to face, but I don't know that. All I know is the "written" you... and that person comes across as arrogant, and condescending.
This is my final response to you on this matter... I won't play word games or semantics with you.
Of course nobody knows what is in your mind..... except by the things you SAY. And my posts toward you were criticizing you for WHAT YOU SAID, AND HOW YOU SAID IT. <<<< Did you GET that? Finally?
I am criticizing your arrogance and condescension against another poster. If you did not mean your comments that way, then you should apologize and move on.
This is a public forum, where we, as adults, use words to convey our thoughts. If your words come across as arrogant, guess what? You'll be perceived as arrogant.... no matter WHAT is in your heart, or head.
I have not attacked YOU at all... I don't KNOW you. You might be a very nice person, face to face, but I don't know that. All I know is the "written" you... and that person comes across as arrogant, and condescending.
This is my final response to you on this matter... I won't play word games or semantics with you.
No one said its a better language. Who are you to question Gods abilities? Who are you to question even his word? God does things that are out of your natural eyesight. Cursing and questioning God ,and his people by pretty much calling others who have the gift stupid, surely brings no blessing upon you.