Luis de Alcasar and the modern Preterist for Dummies

[LaurenTM]

Luis, was a Jesuit (look them up) and he is credited, with writing the first systematic PRETERIST exposition of prophecy.

Oddly enough, the Catholic church took benefit from his efforts in their ragings against the Protestants (who were protesting the Catholic church and their indulgences, forgiveness of sins for money, vapid idol worship, veneration of Mary etc etc) and we see this in the modern eschatological commentary STILL, as a Catholic defense against the Protestant Historic view which had/has, nothing good to say about the RCC and consider them apostate in both their interpretation and invalidation of all things Protestant.

When you are in discussion or reading in this or another forum and you come across someone who states that all prophecy is fullfilled and was fullfilled in 70 AD and Revelation is past and not future tense, once you recover, be aware you are addressing a Preterist.

To be sure, there are basically 2 kinds...unlike Baskin Robbins ice cream which has many more flavors. You have your partials and you have your full blown Preterists...the full blowns will also tell you that almost the entire Bible is an allegory.

They will often bring up that cherry on top just as you are getting used to the idea that the entire Bible as you know and understand it, is of little to no value as any sort of plumb line as Jesus has already returned and forgot to take you with Him.

But then again, that would have been in 70 AD so if you are reading this right now, you were not born anyway

but hey! that's OK! because a Preterist will tell you that you are actually in the 1000 year reign right now...so it's all good! yes? what? that doesn't make sense? well hang on, cause if you think that is just plain silly, wait until you hear the rest!

 

[Stephen63]

I would like to see more of this.....

 

[LaurenTM]

we've been seeing 'it' in various threads popping up in the BDF

we have 'replacement theology' ..

70 weeks to do what

purpose of the book of Revelation

and maybe others I didn't bother with

all those threads, the ideas expressed by the op's...are Preterist beliefs

I don't know why we don't just discuss Preterism then, instead of debating the ideas contained within it, presented as other topics, in which those who are Preterists basically scorn and mock those who object to their skewing of Biblical timelines and events, while maintaining that Revelation is history and 70 AD was the 2nd coming of Christ

again, there are the 2 positions...partial and gung ho all the way

full Preterism holds that ALL Biblical prophecy is a done deal..the book of Revelation is simply SYMBOLIC of events in the 1st century ...they do not believe there are future events described that are yet to happen. UNDERSTAND they literally mean ALL has been fulfilled

They believe that Jesus second coming was in 70 AD and was a SPIRITUAL return...mark that, because you will often come across what seems to be confusion between the physical and the spiritual, but they believe it is not their confusion, but the confusion of all who think future events are contained not only in Revelation but Daniel and other prophetic books.

In their economy, everything has already happened, remember? and that will be their main arguement from which any and all scripure is refuted and rearranged as history...whether it is or not. To a Preterist, it is. That is their entire point.

They also believe the resurrection from the dead and final judgement has already occurred.

Preterists also believe the law was fulfilled in AD 70...and therefore, God's covenant with Israel was ended. They believe that the new heaven and earth are here now...not an event and not as described in Revelation, as, they will be happy to inform you, most of the Bible is simply an allegory...and the rest of us are not spiritual enough to understand that and besides, Jesus always spoke in parables so therefore, they conclude,
It is allegorical. Just a story to teach you something...kind of like Grimms fairy tales but with spiritual meaning.

The new heavens and earth spoken of? well, a Preterist believes it is the world under the New Covenant...keeping in mind the old Covenant was fulfilled, not by Jesus dying on the cross...but by the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Judgement Day in their opinion, in which Jesus came back SPIRITUALLY...

from here, it is only a hop, skip and skewed viewpoint, to add 'replacement theology' to the mix and tag that on the Preterist train as the caboose.

this is not in the least any sort of thorough examination of Preterism, but, like the op states, just one more of the books in the well known series of 'Fill in the blank for Dummies'...there is no actual book with that title...but there are many many books about Preterism and the fallacies contained in it, because it has been floating around a long time and is now, apparently, enjoying a revival

so remember, that when you question what appears to you a strange doctrine...like Revelation being a history book, it would be helpful to keep in mind that a discussion or debate may appear to be about one thing, but when it gives itself away in denial of all things prophetic or denial of actual events and calls them allegory instead, the viewpoint being expressed is actually Preterism

 

[Stephen63]

One of the things I've been seeing on here in the last year or so is the merging of some of these heresies, a consolidation of doctrines, where other's false beliefs are accepted as long as they believe & accept their false doctrine. Have you ever noticed that preterists rarely argue with grace onlys & OSAS?

IMO, one who thinks logically, even without salvation, could look at who all the other groups argue with & make a simple analysis that who all the others argue with must either be worse than all, or that this underdog is probably the right one.

 

[LaurenTM]

haha...looks like we are lonely on this thread

it's a fact people would rather argue over pet beliefs than get the big picture and understand what it is being presented

ah well...

with regards to your points above:

to be honest, I can't say I have noticed that? but then again, I only found out recently who some of the 'closet' preterists are and often enough, people do not know what they are even talking about it seems, but just post something they think substantiates what they try to present as 'the gospel truth'

we need the bedrock truth of the word, yet it seems many are getting further and further away from it...and it becomes a morass of opinions and twisted, taken out of context and stitched together with 'repeat often for truth'

so I dunno............

no one has all the truth, but I'll tell you what...there is certainly not the disparity in truth that is offered in any Christian forum at any time anywhere in the world...

I agree about logic though...some will argue that is not scriptural...Christians should be all about being led by the 'spirit' and get goosebumps all the time

emotions are supposed to follow the truth...emotions are not truth

 

[eternally-gratefull]

One of the things I've been seeing on here in the last year or so is the merging of some of these heresies, a consolidation of doctrines, where other's false beliefs are accepted as long as they believe & accept their false doctrine. Have you ever noticed that preterists rarely argue with grace onlys & OSAS?

IMO, one who thinks logically, even without salvation, could look at who all the other groups argue with & make a simple analysis that who all the others argue with must either be worse than all, or that this underdog is probably the right one.

Thats been going in since I have been here, It is just alot of them left a few years ago, Either by being banned or they just left..

And yes, I see that also. It is also one of the most HEATED debates.. I have been told I am going to hell, even though I have the same gospel of some of them.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

haha...looks like we are lonely on this thread

it's a fact people would rather argue over pet beliefs than get the big picture and understand what it is being presented

ah well...

with regards to your points above:

to be honest, I can't say I have noticed that? but then again, I only found out recently who some of the 'closet' preterists are and often enough, people do not know what they are even talking about it seems, but just post something they think substantiates what they try to present as 'the gospel truth'

we need the bedrock truth of the word, yet it seems many are getting further and further away from it...and it becomes a morass of opinions and twisted, taken out of context and stitched together with 'repeat often for truth'

so I dunno............

no one has all the truth, but I'll tell you what...there is certainly not the disparity in truth that is offered in any Christian forum at any time anywhere in the world...

I agree about logic though...some will argue that is not scriptural...Christians should be all about being led by the 'spirit' and get goosebumps all the time

emotions are supposed to follow the truth...emotions are not truth

Amen, seems like what we get is


...Who has the most who believe the way you do (popularity)
...What did the "so called" early church believe (History trumps the word of God)
...WHat sounds the most spiritual (I have found is not always the most true, more like religion)
...WHat do my feelings tell me. (truth is what I make it)

 

[LaurenTM]

Amen, seems like what we get is


...Who has the most who believe the way you do (popularity)
...What did the "so called" early church believe (History trumps the word of God)
...WHat sounds the most spiritual (I have found is not always the most true, more like religion)
...WHat do my feelings tell me. (truth is what I make it)

I'd say you nailed it!

and welcome aboard LOL!

 

[LaurenTM]

Amen, seems like what we get is


...Who has the most who believe the way you do (popularity)
...What did the "so called" early church believe (History trumps the word of God)
...WHat sounds the most spiritual (I have found is not always the most true, more like religion)
...WHat do my feelings tell me. (truth is what I make it)

I'd say you nailed it!

and welcome aboard LOL!

are you saying there were alot more preterists?

don't quite understand

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'd say you nailed it!

and welcome aboard LOL!

are you saying there were alot more preterists?

don't quite understand

Thank you, Hope it is a smooth ride..lol

I am saying in it seems any discussion, Seems whoever believes the most wins

There was a time in here, I was prety much alone when it came to pre-millinialism.. There was just a few of us, and we were ganged up on hard, I actually had to leave for a few months. Or I would have been banned (I was pretu close to it because I could get nasty with them) when I got back, a few of them were banned. so I doubt it got any better.. and hardly any of them were hear in any case.

Maybe that was my point,, When I said it..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This weekend I was thinking of doing an OT survey and get all prophecies concerning king messiah, and the one who would suffer for the sins of the people.

then open a thread and try to have a study, Put ourselves in the place of people pre Christ, and try to determine how we would interpret the prophecies.

I think this would help in the issue. but never got to it, was so busy..

 

[LaurenTM]

This weekend I was thinking of doing an OT survey and get all prophecies concerning king messiah, and the one who would suffer for the sins of the people.

then open a thread and try to have a study, Put ourselves in the place of people pre Christ, and try to determine how we would interpret the prophecies.

I think this would help in the issue. but never got to it, was so busy..

it is my sad opinion. most do not actually seem to want 'just the facts to make a case' and if they do? then it is THEIR facts, THEIR way...

like in the current thread right now started by Angela about the WOF doctrine..we have said over and over that we DO believe in healing and we keep getting back that we basically have no faith

it's more than frustrating...two ears it seems...in one and out the other

I guess it is easier when people are sitting in front of you...but a forum, gives voice to people who would normally not teach or voice their beliefs

I am consistent...I would be the same in 'real' life...which does not make me holier or any other nonsense, but it is very difficult to have a thread that is responded to with the op in tact by the time you get to the bottom of page 1

 

[eternally-gratefull]

it is my sad opinion. most do not actually seem to want 'just the facts to make a case' and if they do? then it is THEIR facts, THEIR way...

like in the current thread right now started by Angela about the WOF doctrine..we have said over and over that we DO believe in healing and we keep getting back that we basically have no faith

it's more than frustrating...two ears it seems...in one and out the other

I guess it is easier when people are sitting in front of you...but a forum, gives voice to people who would normally not teach or voice their beliefs

I am consistent...I would be the same in 'real' life...which does not make me holier or any other nonsense, but it is very difficult to have a thread that is responded to with the op in tact by the time you get to the bottom of page 1

sadly, I feel the organized church is to blame. People have been taught for years. We believe this, follow us, everyone else is wrong. that we have become men followers, and not God followers.

Not only do romanists stick together, But Calvinists, Arminius, Baptists etc etc.. Sadly, I believe it is one of satans greatest victories.

 

[Grandpa]

I suppose if someone were to argue or contradict what you are saying, it would be better to come from someone that you like and not someone you already don't like.

That being said I like both you guys, EG and LaurenTM.

But aren't all Christians at least partial preterists?

Matthew 5:17-18
[FONT=&quot]17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

If the Lord Jesus didn't fulfill the Law then we are still under it. But we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that we aren't under the law.

So wouldn't it make more sense that perhaps more has been fulfilled than your understanding has grasped?

I'm not saying everything has been fulfilled because that is outside my understanding as well.

But, obviously, a lot of prophecy has been fulfilled by the Lord Jesus Christ. Right?

Or maybe I'm not understanding exactly what the argument is here???[/FONT]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I suppose if someone were to argue or contradict what you are saying, it would be better to come from someone that you like and not someone you already don't like.

That being said I like both you guys, EG and LaurenTM.

But aren't all Christians at least partial preterists?

Matthew 5:17-18
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

If the Lord Jesus didn't fulfill the Law then we are still under it. But we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that we aren't under the law.

So wouldn't it make more sense that perhaps more has been fulfilled than your understanding has grasped?

I'm not saying everything has been fulfilled because that is outside my understanding as well.

But, obviously, a lot of prophecy has been fulfilled by the Lord Jesus Christ. Right?

Or maybe I'm not understanding exactly what the argument is here???

we love you also.

Your right, if the law was not fulfilled, we would all be in our sin.

But alot of OT prophecy was not concerning the law. (the law is not even prophecy, it was a literal thing) it concerned world events, most of which took place at or near the middle east.

I guess I would have to say, What would seperate a paritail preterist from a premillenialist.. (these terms confuse me more than anything)

I will be honest, I never heard of preterism until I came to christian chat. I heard the doctrines (I have studied them for decades) mut not the terms..

 

[LaurenTM]

I suppose if someone were to argue or contradict what you are saying, it would be better to come from someone that you like and not someone you already don't like.

That being said I like both you guys, EG and LaurenTM.

But aren't all Christians at least partial preterists?

Matthew 5:17-18
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

If the Lord Jesus didn't fulfill the Law then we are still under it. But we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that we aren't under the law.

So wouldn't it make more sense that perhaps more has been fulfilled than your understanding has grasped?

I'm not saying everything has been fulfilled because that is outside my understanding as well.

But, obviously, a lot of prophecy has been fulfilled by the Lord Jesus Christ. Right?

Or maybe I'm not understanding exactly what the argument is here???

well I like you too!

group hug!

I suppose if someone were to argue or contradict what you are saying, it would be better to come from someone that you like and not someone you already don't like.

well, Stephen and I have certainly been at odds way more than not...but we agree on some things too and while I would not say I don't like him, I can honestly say I have really not like some of what he said...but I make an effort to listen and try to think about what another is saying

I don't know what you mean by aren't all Christians at least partial preterists?

scripture is clear...no special revelation needed...that Jesus has fulfilled the law...so we agree...BUT Preterists say the law was fulfilled in 70 AD with the fall of Jerusalem

that's not the same...that is not what scripture teaches, yet, they will tell you it does and they will also tell you that most of the Bible is an allegory

see the difference?

the consensus that Jesus fulfilled the law is agreeing with what scripture states...

but Preterism states otherwise

do I misunderstand your point?

 

[LaurenTM]

we love you also.

Your right, if the law was not fulfilled, we would all be in our sin.

But alot of OT prophecy was not concerning the law. (the law is not even prophecy, it was a literal thing) it concerned world events, most of which took place at or near the middle east.

I guess I would have to say, What would seperate a paritail preterist from a premillenialist.. (these terms confuse me more than anything)

I will be honest, I never heard of preterism until I came to christian chat. I heard the doctrines (I have studied them for decades) mut not the terms..

AAAAAHHH!!!

don't throw in other terms or I will never get off here trying to explain them!!

LOL!

 

[notuptome]

AAAAAHHH!!!

don't throw in other terms or I will never get off here trying to explain them!!

LOL!

Just the same old stuff in a new package. Gnostic like thinking is always endeavoring to outsmart Gods word.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Grandpa]

well I like you too!

group hug!



well, Stephen and I have certainly been at odds way more than not...but we agree on some things too and while I would not say I don't like him, I can honestly say I have really not like some of what he said...but I make an effort to listen and try to think about what another is saying

I don't know what you mean by aren't all Christians at least partial preterists?

scripture is clear...no special revelation needed...that Jesus has fulfilled the law...so we agree...BUT Preterists say the law was fulfilled in 70 AD with the fall of Jerusalem

that's not the same...that is not what scripture teaches, yet, they will tell you it does and they will also tell you that most of the Bible is an allegory

see the difference?

the consensus that Jesus fulfilled the law is agreeing with what scripture states...

but Preterism states otherwise

do I misunderstand your point?

Well, no I don't think you misunderstand.

Prophecy is at least partially fulfilled.

And that's what I thought a preterist was. Someone who thinks prophecy has been fulfilled.


I wouldn't be so bold as to say exactly when and where prophecy has been fulfilled as I'm not really that emotionally invested in prophecy, in general. The Lord came and died for our sin and rose again. That's the prophecy I concern myself with.

Most everything else is like eschatology. Its great to talk about and we can disagree but it shouldn't be fellowship breaking disagreements, imo.

 

[Grandpa]

we love you also.

Your right, if the law was not fulfilled, we would all be in our sin.

But alot of OT prophecy was not concerning the law. (the law is not even prophecy, it was a literal thing) it concerned world events, most of which took place at or near the middle east.

I guess I would have to say, What would seperate a paritail preterist from a premillenialist.. (these terms confuse me more than anything)

I will be honest, I never heard of preterism until I came to christian chat. I heard the doctrines (I have studied them for decades) mut not the terms..

I never heard of preterism, HRM, SDA, Armstrongite (ism?), sinless perfectionism and a bunch of other stuff that I can't even remember, until I came here.

A lot of it is fun to talk about but there are mistakes or holes in most of it. I just read the bible and pray and if some theology contradicts the bible then I point it out...

I don't know enough of prophecy or eschatology to correct anyone in that area...