Tongues Again???
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Paul was to say the least a unique individual. Paul never claimed that he spoke with unknowable tongues. Paul using hyperbole said that even if he spoke with the tongues of angels and had no charity he would be as clanging brass.
No Paul was very well educated. Paul knew Hebrew, Latin and Greek so he had a command of many languages in his day. There is no evidence that Paul ever spoke in ecstatic utterances. Since Paul is writing a letter of correction to the Corinthians I imagine he would be quite disturbed by what goes on in the modern charismatic and Pentecostal circles.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
No Paul was very well educated. Paul knew Hebrew, Latin and Greek so he had a command of many languages in his day. There is no evidence that Paul ever spoke in ecstatic utterances. Since Paul is writing a letter of correction to the Corinthians I imagine he would be quite disturbed by what goes on in the modern charismatic and Pentecostal circles.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Paul clearly indicates here that there are tongues of men and of angels. To the natural mind of man - this is foolishness to think that the Holy Spirit can give us words in men or angelic languages to speak mysteries to our Father.
I have noticed in my praying in the spirit/tongues at least a dozen different languages - well they all seem different to me. I never know what language is coming forth because it is the Spirit that gives the utterance. I do the "speaking/praying".
Frankly - I could care less what language it is as my mind is renewed to the truth that I am speaking mysteries to my Father. Praying for things that my mind knows nothing about.
1 Corinthians 13:1 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1 Corinthians 14:2 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.
To try to get people to see this truth is impossible. It must be revealed by the Holy Spirit to each one of us - as all truth needs to be done.
I have noticed in my praying in the spirit/tongues at least a dozen different languages - well they all seem different to me. I never know what language is coming forth because it is the Spirit that gives the utterance. I do the "speaking/praying".
Frankly - I could care less what language it is as my mind is renewed to the truth that I am speaking mysteries to my Father. Praying for things that my mind knows nothing about.
1 Corinthians 13:1 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1 Corinthians 14:2 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.
To try to get people to see this truth is impossible. It must be revealed by the Holy Spirit to each one of us - as all truth needs to be done.
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You clearly lack a basic understanding of the scriptures you so casually cite. What you are espousing is an old pagan practice of praying without knowledge. Praying for the sake of praying. Praying without direction praying into the great mystical void that is nothingness and calling it spiritual.
To ascribe some great spiritual significance to this is certainly not prudent.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
To ascribe some great spiritual significance to this is certainly not prudent.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
If you are saying that the Lord doesn’t answer your prayer unless you pray in tongues, you are wrong. If you are saying that the Lord answers your prayer more speedily and completely if you pray in tongues, you are wrong.
Thirty minutes a day of prayer is not enough. You should constantly be in prayer (1 Thess 5:17).
Thirty minutes a day of prayer is not enough. You should constantly be in prayer (1 Thess 5:17).
okie dokie....you are allowed to think whatever you want with your own thinking and interpretation of scripture. I won't call you a heretic because you believe something different.
For someone to tell me that speaking in tongues to my Father is not for today is on par with an atheist trying to tell me that Jesus is not real. Too late...I know better.
Anyway....Bless you. I love how you stand for the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ which is by grace through faith only in what the Lord has done for us in His finished work on the cross and resurrection! That we are rock solid on...
For someone to tell me that speaking in tongues to my Father is not for today is on par with an atheist trying to tell me that Jesus is not real. Too late...I know better.
Anyway....Bless you. I love how you stand for the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ which is by grace through faith only in what the Lord has done for us in His finished work on the cross and resurrection! That we are rock solid on...
Ecstatic utterances? That's not a Biblical term. Tongues can be spoken in a ecstatic state, I suppose, but so can prayers in English. Peter and Paul each had a vision while in a trance. Most people don't seem to go into trances when they speak in tongues. Paul did write this in I Corinthians 14
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
Notice if he prayed in tongues, his understanding was unfruitful. It sure does not sound like he was talking about speaking in some language he knew naturally like Greek, Hebrew (or possibly Latin since he just might have known that, too.)
I suspect he'd be disturbed at the disobedience to scripture and lack of exercise of spiritual gifts in many cessationist churches. Paul wrote an epistle in which he explained how 'every one of you' was to sing a psalm, teach, share a tongue, revelation, and/or interpretation 'unto edifying' and many churches have liturgies that don't allow much room for this, or a pulpit-sermon tradition that doesn't allow for much of this either. Paul passed on commandments of the Lord in this book. And he said, "Let the prophets speak two or three and let the other judge." How many churches obey that. And how many churches disobey Paul's instructions, "Covet to prophesy and forbid not to speak with tongues."
Church has been turned into a spectator sport.
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
Notice if he prayed in tongues, his understanding was unfruitful. It sure does not sound like he was talking about speaking in some language he knew naturally like Greek, Hebrew (or possibly Latin since he just might have known that, too.)
I suspect he'd be disturbed at the disobedience to scripture and lack of exercise of spiritual gifts in many cessationist churches. Paul wrote an epistle in which he explained how 'every one of you' was to sing a psalm, teach, share a tongue, revelation, and/or interpretation 'unto edifying' and many churches have liturgies that don't allow much room for this, or a pulpit-sermon tradition that doesn't allow for much of this either. Paul passed on commandments of the Lord in this book. And he said, "Let the prophets speak two or three and let the other judge." How many churches obey that. And how many churches disobey Paul's instructions, "Covet to prophesy and forbid not to speak with tongues."
Church has been turned into a spectator sport.
notuptome alot of people have told you about tounges.
May i ask, do you honestly think, that these people who have been baptized by water, and by spirit, have a strong knowledge of the bible, and strong faith in God, would openly go against god's will and lie to you about the things they have experienced? And what would exactly be the point of lying about it? What would they gain from it?
Its really hard to understand tounges, unless you have experienced it, they are trying to help you understand thats all.
The whole point of the Corinthian letter was all about the division of the church. Are we not all of christ, all baptized by the same spirit? You need to learn to trust that.
May i ask, do you honestly think, that these people who have been baptized by water, and by spirit, have a strong knowledge of the bible, and strong faith in God, would openly go against god's will and lie to you about the things they have experienced? And what would exactly be the point of lying about it? What would they gain from it?
Its really hard to understand tounges, unless you have experienced it, they are trying to help you understand thats all.
The whole point of the Corinthian letter was all about the division of the church. Are we not all of christ, all baptized by the same spirit? You need to learn to trust that.
I dont understand the logic behind this.
Of course, when you pray (in tonges on without tongues) you pray because you expect some answer from God.
What is the surprise when God answers the prayer?
I hope you dont want to say that God answers because you pray 30 minutes a day or because you pray in tongues. That would be very unbiblical.
Of course, when you pray (in tonges on without tongues) you pray because you expect some answer from God.
What is the surprise when God answers the prayer?
I hope you dont want to say that God answers because you pray 30 minutes a day or because you pray in tongues. That would be very unbiblical.
Paul gives the balanced approach to praying in 1Cor 14v15:
"What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding."
He teaches that we should pray in tongues and with the mind as well as sing in tongues and using the mind, and certainly this pattern worked for Paul (and no doubt ALL the Christians of the Churches set up through him by the Lord followed his example)! Rom 1v9, 15v18-21, 1Cor 14v18, 2Cor 12v11,12, 1Thess 5v17.
Acts 2v15-21,38,39 (with 1Cor 12v7-11,28, Eph 4v7-16), teaches that spiritual gifts and spiritual ministries are set in the Church throughout the WHOLE of the age of Grace, right up the the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus!
Is Paul's example, which he no doubt received from the Lord Jesus, not good enough for us today? Gal 1v12.
"What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding."
He teaches that we should pray in tongues and with the mind as well as sing in tongues and using the mind, and certainly this pattern worked for Paul (and no doubt ALL the Christians of the Churches set up through him by the Lord followed his example)! Rom 1v9, 15v18-21, 1Cor 14v18, 2Cor 12v11,12, 1Thess 5v17.
Acts 2v15-21,38,39 (with 1Cor 12v7-11,28, Eph 4v7-16), teaches that spiritual gifts and spiritual ministries are set in the Church throughout the WHOLE of the age of Grace, right up the the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus!
Is Paul's example, which he no doubt received from the Lord Jesus, not good enough for us today? Gal 1v12.
D
I have a witness of 44 years of not-tongues, but praying... well? Really can't tell you how long, because my prayer life is convoluted. Does "Lord, thanks for a parking spot" or "Help me hold my temper" (And for anyone wonder, you got me. Sometimes I forget to pray. And sometimes the temper slings anyway. ) or body language when I can't think of the words to express my angst count as prayer time?
Okay. You got your witness. I got mine. Now what? What have we managed to prove or disprove?
) or body language when I can't think of the words to express my angst count as prayer time?Okay. You got your witness. I got mine. Now what? What have we managed to prove or disprove?