Rapture Gap

[Bladerunner]

That's a good question. Just how much of God's word can we dismiss as not applying to us before it makes more sense to find something that does apply better?

Ah,,,I for one hate to see you dismiss anything written in the Bible for it is the 'Word of God" that he design, written and inspired over 3000 years ago.

 

[Bladerunner]

In order to prove the pre-trib position one does not need to quote all kinds of scriptures, one needs to only prove that the apostle Paul in the Thess letters wrote of a return of Christ that preceded and was different then the return of Christ that Jesus gave the church through the apostles. Again, the way to prove the pre-trib rapture position is to prove that the apostle Paul in the Thess letters wrote of a return of Christ that preceded and was different then the return of Christ that Jesus gave the church through the apostles...if you can do that I will go back to being pre-trib. Waiting for the evidence, prove that Paul writing to the Thess described a return of Christ that preceded and was different then the return of Christ that Jesus gave the church through the apostles.

You mean like this.....?????There is only one Jesus Christ and there is only one gospel of Jesus Christ. You either believe in it or you do not.

I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that you walk worthy of the vocation [calling] wherewith you are called...Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace—There is one body —One Spirit—One Lord—One Faith—One Baptism—One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all...And he gave some, apostles, and some prophets; and some evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers for the edifying of the body of Christ till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.

Ephesians 4:1-13

 

[Ahwatukee]

In order to prove the pre-trib position one does not need to quote all kinds of scriptures, one needs to only prove that the apostle Paul in the Thess letters wrote of a return of Christ that preceded and was different then the return of Christ that Jesus gave the church through the apostles. Again, the way to prove the pre-trib rapture position is to prove that the apostle Paul in the Thess letters wrote of a return of Christ that preceded and was different then the return of Christ that Jesus gave the church through the apostles...if you can do that I will go back to being pre-trib. Waiting for the evidence, prove that Paul writing to the Thess described a return of Christ that preceded and was different then the return of Christ that Jesus gave the church through the apostles.

G-day samuel23,

The understanding of the gathering of the church prior to the God's wrath being poured out, is garnered from comparing and cross-referencing scriptures, as well as having an understanding of the nature of God. Rev.19:11-21 is a detailed account of the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. An army wearing fine linen, white and clean, is following the Lord out of heaven. This army is identified as the bride in Rev.19:6-8 where she is receiving that fine linen, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb. In addition, In Rev.17:14 these on white horses are also identified as the Lord's "called, chosen and faithful followers."

All that said, this information puts the church as being in heaven during the time of God's wrath. After the beast and the false prophet are captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire (Rev.19:20), Satan is then seized and thrown into the Abyss during the thousand year reign of Christ (Rev.20:1-3). Following that, the saints who will have been killed during that great tribulation, will be resurrected as demonstrated in Rev.20:4-6.

Do you have an answer regarding that army wearing the fine linen, white and clean following Christ out of heaven?

 

[buddyt]

I also believe the those who have the seal are the 144000. My point is they are not taken anywhere. No one is taken any where. We are told we will be kept from. Not removed from. The scripture is so simple a child can read and understand. I believe what the Bible teaches not the traditions of the various denominations or other. The important thing to remember is not to except the one who comes first. If you are in a flesh body you should know Jesus is still to come. To disagree is OK it may push some of us to dig a little deeper. And so come to the truth. Pray for understanding.

 

[Ahwatukee]

We are told we will be kept from. Not removed from.

Morning buddyt
Actually, the word is "ek" which means "out of" as in "I will keep you [out of] the our of the hour of trial." "Out from" would work as well. At the middle of the seven years, the 144,000 are caught up to God and to his throne. Likewise, when the Lord appears, the dead will rise and then those still alive will be caught up. The Lord will then take the entire group back to the Father's house to those dwelling places that Jesus went to prepare for us. (John 14:1-3, 1 Thes.4:13-17)

 

[Bladerunner]

I also believe the those who have the seal are the 144000. My point is they are not taken anywhere. No one is taken any where. We are told we will be kept from. Not removed from. The scripture is so simple a child can read and understand. I believe what the Bible teaches not the traditions of the various denominations or other. The important thing to remember is not to except the one who comes first. If you are in a flesh body you should know Jesus is still to come. To disagree is OK it may push some of us to dig a little deeper. And so come to the truth. Pray for understanding.

I am not sure what you mean by "they are not taken anywhere"???? They Who.??????

"We are told we will be kept from. Not removed from"????????? Kept--Removed From Where...???????????

"The important thing to remember is not to except the one who comes first." Who is this????????????

 

[samuel23]

There seems to an idea out there that if we muddy the water enough we can cause a pre-trib rapture to come into existence. There is also a big lie out there that one cannot really tell by reading the bible whether there is a pre-trib rapture or post-trib rapture. The pre-trib rapture is based 100% on the belief that Paul, in the Thess letters, wrote of a different return of Christ then the return Jesus gave the church through the apostles and that it preceded the return that Jesus gave the church through the apostles. You see, the idea that Paul wrote of a different return of Christ then the return Jesus gave the apostles...is not based on any scriptural evidence at all. Simple deductive reasoning tells us that the church before Paul had to be post-trib because that was the only return of Christ they could have been taught. Also, when Paul joined the church he would have accepted the post-trib rapture that the rest of the church was already believing in. When you add to that the fact that Paul described the return of Christ exactly the same as Jesus described His return then it is a slam dunk...no such thing as a pre-trib rapture.

 

[pottersclay]

Paul also said we are saved from the wrath that is to come, he also said we are not appointed to wrath.
When the rapture takes place not every eye shall see him, he's come to take his bride as a thief in the night.

Don't know why I'm even posting this as you are set in your belief as I'm set in the truth. You can't see it because to tell the truth your not looking for it. Just the things that support your views.
Been down this road before old news, there's enough evidence to support pre-trib view can someone say that it's also there in scripture no...well lets all be ignorant as we prove once again we don't know scripture

 

[Ahwatukee]

There seems to an idea out there that if we muddy the water enough we can cause a pre-trib rapture to come into existence. There is also a big lie out there that one cannot really tell by reading the bible whether there is a pre-trib rapture or post-trib rapture. The pre-trib rapture is based 100% on the belief that Paul, in the Thess letters, wrote of a different return of Christ then the return Jesus gave the church through the apostles and that it preceded the return that Jesus gave the church through the apostles. You see, the idea that Paul wrote of a different return of Christ then the return Jesus gave the apostles...is not based on any scriptural evidence at all. Simple deductive reasoning tells us that the church before Paul had to be post-trib because that was the only return of Christ they could have been taught. Also, when Paul joined the church he would have accepted the post-trib rapture that the rest of the church was already believing in. When you add to that the fact that Paul described the return of Christ exactly the same as Jesus described His return then it is a slam dunk...no such thing as a pre-trib rapture.

G-Day Samuel23,

In coming to a conclusion regarding the gathering of the church, it is derived from comparing all of the relative information, kind of like a flow chart.

The biggest deterrent for the church being gathered when Christ returns to the earth to end the age, is the fact that the Lord's return takes place after the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which make up God's wrath, and which believers are not appointed to suffer. Therefore, when you and others claim that the gathering of the church takes place when Christ returns to the earth to end the age, it automatically puts the church through the entire wrath of God.

Here is part of the flow chart, since scripture states several times that believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, then the gathering of the church must take place prior to God's wrath, not after. To continue to make the claim that the church is gathered at the end of the age, is to ignore the rest of the scriptural flow chart.

You have also not answered the question as to who that army is who are seen riding on white horses and are following Christ out of heaven at the end of the age. I have continued to share with you that the bride/church is seen receiving her fine linen, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb, which takes place in heaven (Rev.19:6-8). And then that same army on white horses is seen wearing that same white clothing that was just given to her and are following Christ out of heaven to end the age in Rev.19:14.

These are legitimate truths, but for some reason you and others continue to ignore them. In order to determine the order in which the church will be gathered in relation to the end of the age, we must take into consideration and compare all of the information provided in scripture.

Above, you speak of "Simple deductive reasoning" well, I have just provided you with some, so deduce it! A number of major problems in arriving at a proper conclusion is that, people are adopting their belief from books written by false teachers, You Tube, web sites, hearsay and the like.

Paul referred to the appearing of the Lord to gather the church as "the blessed hope." Likewise, after giving his detailed account of the church being gathered in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, he ended it with "therefore comfort one another with these words." Therefore ask yourself the question, would it be a blessed hope and could believers comfort one another regarding our being gathered if the church was first to go through the wrath of God first? If you or others say "Yes" then you have not understood the severity and magnitude of that coming wrath, which will decimate the majority of the population on the earth and dismantle all human government.

Another thing is that, you always say "no! no!" but you never provide scripture to support your claim. Post #47 is a good example of this. Your claim basically becomes "because I said so."

 

[Bladerunner]

AS I have stated two or three times before, these four passages tell us the CHurch will not come under God's Wrath


Rom 5:9
1 Thes 1:10
1 Thes 5:9
Rev 3:10


Samuel I know you are in rooting to post-trib but that means we the church will go through God's Wrath.

Here are five problems associated with Post-tribulation

1) The post-tribulation view requires that the church be present during the 70th week of Daniel (Daniel 9:24-27), even though it was absent from the first 69. This is in spite of the fact that Dan 9:24 indicates that all 70 weeks are for Israel. We believe the church must depart prior to the 70th week, before the final seven-year period.

2) The post-tribulation view denies the New Testament teaching of imminency--that Christ could come at any moment--since there are intervening events required in that view. We believe there are no signs that must precede the Rapture.

3) The post-tribulation view has difficulties with who will populate the Millennium. if the Rapture and the Second Coming occur at essentially the same time. Since all believers will be translated at the Rapture and all unbelievers are judged, because no unrighteous shall be allowed to enter Christ's Kingdom, then no one would be left in mortal bodies to start the population base for the Millennium.

4) Similarly, post-tribulationism is not able to explain the sheep and goats judgment after the Second Coming in Matthew 25:3- 46. Where would the believers in mortal bodies come from if they are raptured at the Second Coming? Who would be able to enter into Christ's Kingdom?

5) The Bride of Christ, the church, is made ready to accompany Christ to earth (Revelation 19:7-8, 14) before the Second Coming, but how could this reasonably happen if part of the church is still on the earth awaiting the Second Coming? If the Rapture of the church takes place at the Second Coming, then how does the Bride (the church) also come with Christ at His Return?


courtesy of Kiononia House Ministries

 

[samuel23]

I know that you all can see the point that I am making. Hanging on to something false when the truth has been clearly pointed out will get one in serious trouble with the Lord. It is not about what we think, it is about what is actually written in the scriptures. I read all these "reasons" as to why the pre-trib is best...did God put this thing up for a vote? The pre-trib idea comes from the belief that Paul wrote to the Thess of a different return of Christ then Jesus gave to the apostles. Simple honest deductive reasoning proves that Paul wrote to the Thess about the same return of Christ that Jesus gave to the apostles. It is an indisputable absolute fact that Paul joined a post-trib believing church because post-trib was what the church was taught BEFORE Paul. Paul could not have changed the post-trib rapture that Jesus had established so Paul was post-trib and wrote about post-trib to the Thess. Pre-trib is an endtime deception designed to cause a great falling away from the faith when pre-trib taught Christians find them selves in the tribulation attacked by the Antichrist and wondering why Jesus did not return as their pre-trib teachers told them He would.

 

[Bladerunner]

I know that you all can see the point that I am making. Hanging on to something false when the truth has been clearly pointed out will get one in serious trouble with the Lord. It is not about what we think, it is about what is actually written in the scriptures. I read all these "reasons" as to why the pre-trib is best...did God put this thing up for a vote? The pre-trib idea comes from the belief that Paul wrote to the Thess of a different return of Christ then Jesus gave to the apostles. Simple honest deductive reasoning proves that Paul wrote to the Thess about the same return of Christ that Jesus gave to the apostles. It is an indisputable absolute fact that Paul joined a post-trib believing church because post-trib was what the church was taught BEFORE Paul. Paul could not have changed the post-trib rapture that Jesus had established so Paul was post-trib and wrote about post-trib to the Thess. Pre-trib is an endtime deception designed to cause a great falling away from the faith when pre-trib taught Christians find them selves in the tribulation attacked by the Antichrist and wondering why Jesus did not return as their pre-trib teachers told them He would.

Paul speaks of the Rapture as a "mystery" (1 Corinthians 15:51-54), that is, a truth not revealed until its disclosure by the apostles (Colossians 1:26). The Second Coming, on the other hand, was predicted in the Old Testament (Daniel 12:1-3; Zechariah 12:10; 14:4). In fact, the oldest prophecy uttered by a prophet was given before the flood of Noah and was of the Second Coming! It was given by Enoch, quoted in Jude 14-15.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The pre-trib idea comes from the belief that Paul wrote to the Thess of a different return of Christ then Jesus gave to the apostles.

Your claim above is another example of not understanding that the gathering of the church is a separate event from when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. As long you and others continue to ignore this, you will not understand the order of events.

I would also point out again that you continue to lack scriptural support regarding your claims. For as you yourself can see above, you have not listed one scripture to support your claim. You have also failed to give an answer regarding those riding on white horses following Christ out of heaven as revealed in Rev.19:14. Clearly it is the church, which demonstrates that they are already in heaven with Christ at the wedding of the Lamb.

* Christ appears and the church is gathered (John 14:1-3, 1 Thes.4:13-18, 1 Cor.15:51-53)

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W

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The Lord returns to the earth to end the age and his saints with him who will have previously been gathered at the resurrection prior to his wrath.

 

[Persuaded]

Your claim above is another example of not understanding that the gathering of the church is a separate event from when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. As long you and others continue to ignore this, you will not understand the order of events.

I would also point out again that you continue to lack scriptural support regarding your claims. For as you yourself can see above, you have not listed one scripture to support your claim. You have also failed to give an answer regarding those riding on white horses following Christ out of heaven as revealed in Rev.19:14. Clearly it is the church, which demonstrates that they are already in heaven with Christ at the wedding of the Lamb.

* Christ appears and the church is gathered (John 14:1-3, 1 Thes.4:13-18, 1 Cor.15:51-53

G

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W

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The Lord returns to the earth to end the age and his saints with him who will have previously been gathered at the resurrection prior to his wrath.

And you still deny that tribulation and wrath are not the same.
I challenge you to prove to me that the seven seals and seven trumps are God's wrath.
You are the self proclaimed expert, so please list each seal and each trump as revealed in Scripture and explain to me how the events listed are God's wrath.

Start with the first seal and explain how the white horse rider and what he does constitutes God's wrath.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I challenge you to prove to me that the seven seals and seven trumps are God's wrath.

6th Seal:
They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide usfrom the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their [wrath] has come, and who can withstand it?” (Rev.6:16-17)

7Th Trumpet:
"We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign. The nations were angry, and your [wrath] has come. (Rev.11:16-18)

Seven Bowl Judgments:
"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s [wrath] is completed. (Rev.15:1)

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which are three sets of seven judgments, is how God is going to bring about the day of the Lord, which is the wrath of God. Since the seven bowl judgments are last completing God's wrath, that means that other wrath had to be first or before the seven bowls, which would be the seals and the trumpets.

Now I answered your question above with scripture to support it. I truly hope that God will reveal this truth to you that, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are how God is going to carry out His coming wrath, leading up to His return to end the age.

 

[Bladerunner]

As if what Ahwatukee has said in the post above is not enough, I offer this.

I think you will agree that the Day of the Lord depicts his judgement on people, nations, etc. Just in case you have not figured this out,,, Here is a list of scriptures that tells just what "The Day of the Lord" has meant down through the centuries.

'The Day of the Lord'


ἦλθεν [ēlthen] meaning [has come] , aorist tense which normally denotes past time. The day has already come in the opening of the sixth seal. God’s wrath is being poured out prior to the seventh seal (which initiates the seven trumpet judgments).

“For the great day of His wrath has come” (Rev. Rev. 6:17+).


Now just in case you get the holy spirit in you and want to read upon God's Wrath and what it has meant throughout the ages, I have provided supporting documents below.

********************

The primary Old Testament passages from which the images in the sixth seal are drawn prove that the great day must be the Day of the Lord (Isa. Isa. 2:10-11, Isa. 2:19-21; Isa. 13:9-13; Isa. 34:4, Isa. 34:8; Eze. 32:7-8; Hos. Hos. 10:8; Joel Joel 2:11, Joel 2:30; Zep. Zep. 1:14; Mal. Mal. 4:5).

First, the expression the Day of the Lord refers to God’s special intervention into world events to judge His enemies, accomplish His purpose for history, and thereby demonstrate who He is—the sovereign God of the universe (Isa. Isa. 2:10-22; Eze. Eze. 13:5, Eze. 13:9, Eze. 13:14, Eze. 13:21, Eze. 13:23; Eze. Eze. 30:3, Eze. 30:8, Eze. 30:19, Eze. 30:25-26). Second, several Days of the Lord already have occurred in which God demonstrated His sovereign rule by raising up nations to execute His judgement on other nations. For example, He raised up Babylon to judge Egypt and its allies during the 500s B.C. (Jer. Jer. 46:2, Jer. 46:10; Eze. Eze. 30:3-6). However, the Bible also foretells a future Day of the Lord.

At the outset of the day of the Lord, human trials will be prolonged and comparable to a woman’s labor before giving birth to a child (Isa. Isa. 13:8; Isa. 26:17-19; Isa. 66:7-9; Jer. Jer. 30:6-8; Mic. Mic. 4:9, Mic. 4:10; cf. Mtt. Mat. 24:8; 1Th. 1Th. 5:3). This phase of growing human agony will be climaxed by the Messiah’s personal return to earth to terminate the period of turmoil through direct judgment.

his is that great day for which the angels who did not keep their proper domain are reserved for judgment—they will be used in judgment against men (Rev. Rev. 9:1+). if Your interested check out "The Day of the Lord, Jacob’s Trouble and the Great Tribulation".

The wrath is said to be of the Lamb (Rev. Rev. 6:16+). This is extremely significant because those who are covered by the blood of the Lamb prior to this day (1Pe. 1Pe. 1:17-19) are exempted from experiencing His wrath—they are His bride (Luke Luke 21:36; Rom. Rom. 5:9; 1Th. 1Th. 5:9; Rev. Rev. 3:10+).

 

[Ahwatukee]

G-Day Persuaded,

You are the self proclaimed expert, so please list each seal and each trump as revealed in Scripture and explain to me how the events listed are God's wrath.

Just FYI, I don't consider myself and expert and that because I don't know everything. But what God has revealed to me through His word, I share. And speaking of being an expert in God's word, should not all believers aspire to being experts in God's word, knowing every nook and cranny? I'm certainly not going to apologize for sharing what the Spirit has confirmed with my spirit regarding the truth of God's word. He rewards those who diligently search out His word. It is just sad though that people resist the truth and attempt to discredit those who know it.

Now, regarding your request to " list each seal and each trumpet as revealed in Scripture and explain to me how the events listed are God's wrath," if you can't tell by reading them and the disaster that they bring as not being the wrath of God, then my listing them would do no good. For the details in the scripture should bear that out.

That said, there are only two places within Revelation that gives a percentage of the fatalities, one being at the 4th seal where a fourth of the inhabitants of the earth will be killed. Based on the current population of 7 billion would be approx. 1.7 billion fatalities. The other is at the sounding of the 6th trumpet, where those four angels and their army of 200 million kill a third of mankind. With just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet alone, a fourth and a third respectively, the fatalities would be approx. 4.5 billion. And that is not including trumpets 1,2 and 3 nor the fatalities as a result of the bowl judgments, nor what the fatalities that the two witnesses will cause.

These fatalities are supported by what Jesus said regarding the great tribulation period in that, "If those days had not been shortened, no one on earth would be left alive."

 

[popeye]

The account by buddyt tells the truth. Unlike some, I had never read any book on the false pre-trib rapture, nor did I have any knowledge of Darby, or Macdonald, or church history. Just by simply reading the bible, I found that the pre-trib rapture was false. The problem is not the scriptural evidence, it is there very plain, the problem is that folks refuse to accept the evidence because it is contrary to their desires. I have pointed out in a previous post that the pre-trib rapture stands on the idea that Paul in the Thess letters wrote of a DIFFERENT return of Christ then the return that Jesus gave the apostles. It can be proven that Paul wrote of the same return that Jesus gave the apostles...therefore there is no such thing as a pre-trib rapture. The first church believed in the post-trib rapture before Paul was even converted, because that was the only return of Christ known to the church. Paul joined a post-trib believing church, so he had to have been post-trib. Compare the description Jesus gave of His return with the description Paul gave of Christ return, they are the same...because they are describing the same event. If Paul was describing the same return of Christ as Jesus gave to the apostles then nothing else matters...there is no pre-trib rapture.

1 Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Luke 21
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


Revelation 3

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.


Now,stop acting like we are following your made up mess.

The pretrib rapture doctrine is centered on solid bible doctrine.
In fact,it is the gathering of the bride.

(something you have obviously overlooked)

The account by buddyt tells the truth. Unlike some, I had never read any book on the false pre-trib rapture, nor did I have any knowledge of Darby, or Macdonald, or church history. Just by simply reading the bible, I found that the pre-trib rapture was false

No,both of you have not a clue,and are easily refuted.

Btw,Mcdonald was post trib. She believed the church needed to go through the GT for "cleansing"

(another little something you guys overlooked in your youtube studies.)

 

[popeye]

And you still deny that tribulation and wrath are not the same.
I challenge you to prove to me that the seven seals and seven trumps are God's wrath.
You are the self proclaimed expert, so please list each seal and each trump as revealed in Scripture and explain to me how the events listed are God's wrath.

Start with the first seal and explain how the white horse rider and what he does constitutes God's wrath.

1)God used kings and nations to judge israel. (this proves indirect judgement,as in famines etc)

2)No matter how you slice it they do overlap.

 

[popeye]

I know that you all can see the point that I am making. Hanging on to something false when the truth has been clearly pointed out will get one in serious trouble with the Lord. It is not about what we think, it is about what is actually written in the scriptures. I read all these "reasons" as to why the pre-trib is best...did God put this thing up for a vote? The pre-trib idea comes from the belief that Paul wrote to the Thess of a different return of Christ then Jesus gave to the apostles. Simple honest deductive reasoning proves that Paul wrote to the Thess about the same return of Christ that Jesus gave to the apostles. It is an indisputable absolute fact that Paul joined a post-trib believing church because post-trib was what the church was taught BEFORE Paul. Paul could not have changed the post-trib rapture that Jesus had established so Paul was post-trib and wrote about post-trib to the Thess. Pre-trib is an endtime deception designed to cause a great falling away from the faith when pre-trib taught Christians find them selves in the tribulation attacked by the Antichrist and wondering why Jesus did not return as their pre-trib teachers told them He would.

Hanging on to something false when the truth has been clearly pointed out will get one in serious trouble with the Lord

Pot<> Kettle

How ironic,since you skip our verses ,or ignore them.