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Thread: More Anti-Holiday Fallacies

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    Default More Anti-Holiday Fallacies

    Here's a debate between a Torah observer and a Christian on the subject of Christmas and whether the customs associated with it are pagan:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnTmOOgpYF8

    My notes on this video:

    Regarding this video: I am a former Armstrongite which is not far removed from Hebrew Roots beliefs. Some of the founders of HRM are former Armstrongites. Regarding the festivals of Leviticus 23, many think that Feast of Tabernacles relates to the Incarnation. Christ "tabernacled" amongst us in a body of flesh. Therefore by observing Feast of Tabernacles, Hebrew Roots Movement is recognizing the Incarnation. But, my point is that if anti-holiday people claim recognizing the Incarnation is wrong, then observing the Feast of Tabernacles is wrong if they are consistent in their reasoning that observing the Incarnation is wrong. Some think the Feast of Tabernacles refers to the Millenial reign of Christ so there are different views on what the festivals mean. I find no consistency amongst these groups. Regarding Zachary's remarks about the festivals of Leviticus 23, I would responded with these questions: 1. Why does John call both the Passover and the Feasts of Booths or Tabernacles the "Feasts of the Jews"? This does not suggest universal applicability. 2. Colossians 2:16-17 says that the festivals, sabbaths, and new moons were "shadows of things to come"..similar language is used in regards to the ceremonial law of Hebrews 10:1-2 which we know is done away with. Therefore, there is an association with Sabbaths, new moons and festivals with the defunct ceremonial laws. And who is the one usually judging others over days? Usually Torah observers and Armstrongite types. 3. Concerning the assertion that Jesus and Jewish Christians observed these things, and therefore they apply to us, they also observed physical circumcision and it was not mandatory or expected of Gentile believers..see Acts 21. Jewish Christians and maybe some Gentile Christians continued to observe these things, probably due to familiarity and to reach their family members evangelisticaly. It was part of their society as Jews. Some Gentiles may have observed them as a matter of preference as well, but this is by no means certain. It is true that Paul evangelized both Jews and Gentiles in the synagogues on the Sabbath, but that is where the people gathered and scrolls were housed. Additionally, it was Paul's habit to go to the synagogues first to reach Jews in Gentile cities, and when he was thrown out of the synagogue, he would employ other methods. Additionally, many Hebrew Roots movement teachers fail to acknowledge that in many Gentile cities, a sizeable group of Jews were also present. Therefore, remarks such as I Corinthians 5 regarding the festivals could have been addressed specifically to the Jews in the congregation, or there may have been some Gentile observers of the festivals..it doesn't matter. Either way, there is no definitive proof that both Jews and Gentiles were observing Sabbath and festivals. In fact, neither Sabbath-breaking or eating unclean meats was ever mentioned as a sin in any of the epistles to the Gentiles. Invariably this would have been an issue, because many early Christians were slaves belonging to Gentile masters. Therefore, the issue of Sabbath-keeping would have presented itself, as well as dietary restrictions. Inconsistencies like this caused me to reject Armstrongite teaching concerning the continued applicability of these elements of the Mosaic Covenant. 4. Zachary mentioned that Leviticus 23 proclaims the festivals to be observed forever..the same Hebrew word "olam" is used in reference to the physical circumcision law too, and no biblically literate person claims that physical circumcision is still applicable. I would propose that the word "olam" means "unto the vanishing point" or the end of the period of applicability. Additionally, the Mosaic Covenant was given to ancient Israelites, not Christians under the New Covenant, therefore the "separation commandments" applied to them, not us. Galatians 3 and 4 are clear in teaching that the Mosaic Covenant does not apply anymore. It's purpose was to lead the Jews to the Messiah, and it has served that purpose, at least for those Jews who were part of the elect. It taught the gospel in types and shadows, and also revealed to the Jews the holy character of God at some rudimentary level so that they would recognize that they fell far short and would be ready to accept the Messiah and justification by faith in him and his atoning sacrifice on their behalf. Judaizers failed to realize the purpose of the Mosaic Covenant, just like Hebrew Roots Movement believers today. I would also delve into the specifics of what it means to observe the festivals and ask if Zach is really following the Mosaic Covenant. I doubt if he goes to Jerusalem 3 times a year for the pilgrimage festivals as Torah requires. Of course they will make up all kinds of excuses for why these elements of Torah don't apply anymore, because they want to continue in the illusion that they are observing Torah although in reality they are not. I also notice attitude issues besides doctrinal issues. The attitude of an observer is to judge the non-observer, and this attitude is conveyed throughout Scripture. This issue is not simply a doctrinal one, and a matter of re-education. It is a spiritual issue. Regarding Zachary's remark that no one in the Bible observed anything in December..Jesus observed the Feast of Dedication apparently. See John 10:22. It was not one of the festivals mentioned in Leviticus 23; it was a man-made tradition related to the rededication of the Temple in Jerusalem following the Maccabean Revolt..therefore Zach's remark is incorrect. Feast of Dedication is as same as Hanukkah and it is observed on 25th of Kislev (which is usually in December). As a former observer, I wouldn't associate with any Torah observer group or Armstrongite group in the future, nor will I observe the Sabbath or festivals (unless it would be with a very selected Messianic Jew group who has sound doctrine and doesn't judge non-observers) because I know the attitude that typically accompanies Torah observers and Armstrongites. It's a very rare group that isn't engaged in judging and slandering other believers...accusing them of being spiritually inferior or even unsaved due to non-observance of Sabbath, festivals and clean meat laws. If they don't come right out and say it in public, in their own groups they express these views. As a weasel Armstrongite, I would laugh at "pagan Christians" and scoff at their devotion to Jesus while in my Armstrongite circles, but would practice equivocation publicly in order to hide my contempt for other believers. I imagine the Hebrew Roots types engage in the same type of weasel behavior. I know that I am covered in the righteousness of Jesus, and that my salvation is already secure due to his cross-work. But when I meet Jesus face to face, I know his concern will be on whether I showed sacrificial love toward others, and not whether I kept Torah. That is clearly reflected in John 13 and the New Covenant institution, as well as the account concerning the sheep and goats in Matthew 25. Torah observers are ignoring the fact that sacrificial love is the new commandment under the New Covenant, and instead are fixated on observance of a handful of obsolete commandments of Torah (calendar and meat laws) in order to cover their spiritual nakedness. Instead their view is Torah observance = love. But Christ teaches I am to love others like he did, sacrificially, and his cross-work was a demonstration of that love. Anyways, I think Michael was effective in showing that the anti-holiday people don't have the solid historical evidence to back up their position. One of my uncles used to say that such-and-such was so full of hot air that he could blow up an onion sack (those meshlike sacks used to bag onions). That's what I think about the anti-holiday people. They are basically ascribing to a National Enquirer-like view of Christianity, fueled by the writings of Hislop, Grimm and others, either first, second or third hand, as well as the excessive anti-Roman Catholic rhetoric of the Reformers. They are operating under a juvenile paradigm that has long since been discredited.
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    Default Re: More Anti-Holiday Fallacies

    By the way, lest anyone accuse me of being the Christian debater, Michael, be assured I am not. My former username here was sparkman and plenty here have heard my voice and know that I am not the debater in the video.

    I changed the username because my former username had moderator rights assigned to it in the code and I am no longer a moderator by choice. So, there is nothing nefarious about my new username. Sabbathkeepers may enjoy it, though.

    I rest in my Savior Jesus Christ (Matthew 11:28-30). The Sabbath, festivals and New Moons pointed to Him; He is the Reality behind the shadows (Colossians 2:16-17). I have the Rest of God spiritually (Hebrews 3-4).

    The purpose of Torah was to point to Jesus and salvation through Him. Most of those who claim to be Torah observers don't fathom the depths of the Reality. While claiming to be great Lawkeepers, they don't even know what (or Who) the Mosaic Covenant pointed to.

    Hallelujah for deliverance from bad doctrine!!
    Last edited by RestingInJesus; December 16th, 2016 at 07:48 PM.
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    Default Re: More Anti-Holiday Fallacies

    Here's another hilarious one for anti holiday people:

    https://youtu.be/s0-EgjUhRqA
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    Default Re: More Anti-Holiday Fallacies

    Quote Originally Posted by RestingInJesus View Post
    Here's another hilarious one for anti holiday people:

    https://youtu.be/s0-EgjUhRqA
    That is a good YouTube video. They have several others that are just as funny and some that will make folks squirm .
    Blessings
    Bill
    God's Grace is sufficient.


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    Default Re: More Anti-Holiday Fallacies

    I can vouch for Sparkman. He's a good man.
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    Default Re: More Anti-Holiday Fallacies

    I had a feeling that was you Sparkman.
    Anyways, not all of us who do not participate in "holidays" have followed the teachings of Armstrong or are in the "Hebrew Roots Movement"

    That being said, a broken clock is right twice a day.
    Last edited by NarrowRoadDisciple; December 17th, 2016 at 03:30 AM.
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    Default Re: More Anti-Holiday Fallacies

    This is a great OP. I have said a few times that I don't equate all Hebrew Roots people as the same. There are some extreme sects of it which without a doubt pervert the gospel of the grace of God.

    I do not look at all Hebrew Roots adherents as all the same. As I have said before - there are many that are of authentic Jewish descent and they like their traditions but they do not say that others need to observe the Sabbath or feasts as in the law of Moses or you are dis-obeying God and sinning.

    They observe these things to see Christ as the fulfillment of them - not as something they "need" to do now.

    This group has excellent teachings on how Christ has fulfilled the Law and show Christ in every part of the Old Testament. Jesus said that all the scriptures speak about Him.

    This group of believers are a major blessing to us in the body of Christ and are not Judaizers such as Paul encountered and that are also found in the extreme sects of Hebrew Roots that say believers in Christ must "observe the Sabbath and the feasts like in the law of Moses - or they are dis-obeying God and sinning".

    Those types - run away from as fast as you can as it is a perversion of the gospel of the grace of God in Christ! - but I do not put all Hebrew Roots people in the same boat as the extreme sects because they are not the same.


    There are others that observe things because that is what they want to do and they are free to do so in Christ. We also have the law of liberty in Christ. These others have great things to show how Christ fulfilled the law and in showing Christ in the Hebrew scriptures. That is beautiful.

    Then there are those that for some strange reason try to change themselves into being Jewish when they are clearly gentiles. They take up with Jewish names for things and try to speak and appear as if they were from a Jewish ethnic background.

    They have a messed up identity and our only true identity is in Christ Himself. I believe they have good hearts and most do mean well but are messed up in their minds about the new creation in Christ.

    They think that when people say we are not under the law - that everyone will go wild now. The law of the spirit of life in Christ and the love of God within us is what we live by now.

    These Judaziers have the very same belief system as works-based salvationists. I noticed that they never refute each other because essentially they have the same message. Work-based mindsets instead of the gospel of the grace of Christ.

    These are in reality replacing Christ for the law of Moses/works - the very same thing that works-based believers do in that they replace Christ for the "things they do to maintain righteousness and salvation" although both groups do give "lip service" to Christ and the message of grace that Paul preached because it is hard to get around the verses that state we are saved by grace through faith alone.


    ( Yes, there will be a corresponding action to that faith which will be good works - a manifestation of the life of Christ in us - the works do not produce salvation - they are a fruit of salvation.)
    The new man in Christ - the new creation that is created in righteousness and

    holiness hears the heart voice of the Spirit and not an old head noise of the letter

    of the word. The Pharisees knew "bible knowledge" but they did not

    know God's heart and so they erred in really understanding what the

    scriptures were saying.


    The Lord wants us to look through His eyes and to live from His heart towards

    people, towards Him and towards ourselves as well.

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    Default Re: More Anti-Holiday Fallacies

    My problem has always been....

    1. Jesus gets robbed this time of year by most who name him.....

    When a birthday is celebrated...the one whose birthday it is gets all of the presents, cards and cash...The wise men did NOT GIVE EACH OTHER GIFTS, but rather laid them at the feet of Jesus...

    Everyone I know who pastors a church will say offerings fall way off during this HOLY-DAY season.....if everyone was really celebrating the birth of Christ....then give your money and presents unto JESUS.............................

    Just saying!
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    Default Re: More Anti-Holiday Fallacies

    It doesn't seem right that people would bash something that other people look forward to. People do look forward to holiday like Christmas to stay smashed from thanksgiving eve till new year day, that is on them. then we see the child looking forward to the only pair of shoes he gets a year. Thank God for this season of giving, and opening of hearts. 4th of July another reason some use to get drunk looking forward to it. The child looking forward to the sky being lit up. I don't think holidays are bad its how some celebrate that can be bad.

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    Default Re: More Anti-Holiday Fallacies

    when anything is based on 'lies', we ALL eventually know who is the author...
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    Default Re: More Anti-Holiday Fallacies

    Quote Originally Posted by oldethennew View Post
    when anything is based on 'lies', we ALL eventually know who is the author...
    Right. Charles Darwin.
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    Default Re: More Anti-Holiday Fallacies

    My apologies for the length...

    Quote Originally Posted by RestingInJesus View Post

    [...] my point is that if anti-holiday people claim recognizing the Incarnation is wrong, then observing the Feast of Tabernacles is wrong if they are consistent in their reasoning that observing the Incarnation is wrong.
    With respect this is a false comparison and broad-brush fallacy. Torah Observers against Christmas aren't "anti-holiday". On the contrary, they're 100% and exclusively FOR the holidays God established in scripture (which were meant to separate/set-apart "his people" from the world and their worship). The Feast of Tabernacles is a "holiday". No Torah Observer specifically claims "recognizing the incarnation is wrong".

    I don't know I guess I'd ask, if God shared the actual date of Christ's birthday with you would you celebrate the actual date? Or still celebrate Christmas because it's tradition? Because Christ was incarnated on the feast of Tabernacles detailed in the first chapters of Luke.

    Quote Originally Posted by RestingInJesus View Post


    Regarding Zachary's remarks about the festivals of Leviticus 23, I would responded with these questions:

    1. Why does John call both the Passover and the Feasts of Booths or Tabernacles the "Feasts of the Jews"? This does not suggest universal applicability.
    A1) Let's reason here. John - himself being a Jew - wouldn't have called any holiday "feast[s] of the Jews". You have to take into account that when these gospels were translated into other languages to be copied and distributed to other gentile nations, it wouldn't have made sense to the people to read their proper titles "Peshach" or "Sukkot" without having studied the Hebrew scriptures (aka "OT").

    Those not familiar with the culture wouldn't have had any clue what these names meant much less have any understanding of their prophetic significance (in fulfillment of "OT", which definitely wasn't translated & distributed with the gospels at the time), so the translators altered the text, either deciding within themselves that the feasts weren't important enough to name OR not understanding the culture enough themselves to know how to translate or explain these feasts.

    But more to the point, I'm sure you know that Christ was confirm as the one who'd come through fulfillment of the prophecies in the "OT", so it was critically important to rehearse the feasts because (a) that's what God said for his people to do [this should be enough of a reason alone]...and (b) he said he'd "visit" his people on his feast days. He literally scheduled visits. God doesn't change. We can't get more universal than to have the God of the universe visit mankind on a date he set on his calendar.


    Quote Originally Posted by RestingInJesus View Post
    2. Colossians 2:16-17 says that the festivals, sabbaths, and new moons were "shadows of things to come"..similar language is used in regards to the ceremonial law of Hebrews 10:1-2 which we know is done away with. Therefore, there is an association with Sabbaths, new moons and festivals with the defunct ceremonial laws. And who is the one usually judging others over days?
    A2) It's actually the opposite. Back in the time when Paul penned Colossians he was addressing new converts who were being persecuted by THEIR non-convert (i.e. "pagan") friends, families, etc FOR changing and celebrating the holidays and traditions God established in scripture (again to "set-apart" HIS people from the pagan world). Paul was telling THESE new converts not to let their PAGAN peers judge them in what they eat, drink, in which days they hold as holy...BUT the body of Christ.

    [

    Aside: Note the danger of adding to scripture words that aren't there. The word "is" is not in the original language of Colossians 2:17. It was purposely italicized in the 1611 KJV because in the previous translation the people rightfully complained that the translators were "adding to" scripture. So they italicized any words or phrases not in the original language that they arbitrarily added to try to help. But unfortunately, as time passed this knowledge of the italicized words was forgotten and folks started reading the italicized words as if they were the original text. Then eventually later versions absorbed the additions completely, many times completely changing the passage. This is why I like the original, italicized KJV. For instance:


    Colossians 2:16-17 (KJV WITHOUT added words)
    Let no man therefore judge you in meat or in drink or in respect of an holyday or of the new moon or of the sabbath which are a shadow of things to come but the body of Christ.

    The message is clear: "let no man therefore judge you...but the body of Christ."


    Colossians 2:16-17 (KJV WITH added words)
    Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days. Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.


    ... by adding one little word ("is") an entirely new meaning was developed ...


    Colossians 2:17 (Berean Study Bible)
    These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body that casts it belongs to Christ.

    Colossians 2:17 (English Standard Version)
    These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

    Colossians 2:17 (New Living Translation)
    For these rules are only shadows of the reality yet to come. And Christ himself is that reality.

    Colossians 2:17 (New International Version)
    These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.


    ...COMPLETELY different meaning from the original text and yet entire doctrines have flowed from this change.

    ]


    I'd also like to point out the portion that says "which are shadows of things to come". Note the tense used. Paul didn't say "which WERE shadows of good things that CAME" or "...HAVE NOW COME", but "TO COME". Future tense, post-Christ. Paul knew that - even after Christ and the cross - the feasts were STILL foreshadowing *future events* that remained to be completed by God. Again, he was telling new believers not to let anyone else outside of the faith judge them on the new things they practice *except* their new family: fellow believers.

    By the way this is exactly what they were doing in acts 21. The leaders of the faith were judging (i.e. ruling) on what new gentile believers were required to follow. Christ never said judging isn't wrong, rather he said judge righteously (John 7:24) and don't judge unless you're ready for the same judgment (Matthew 7:1-3).

    Secondly, yes the animal sacrifices are now defunct because Christ fulfilled those portions of the law, BUT what about the shadow of God tabernacling with men, which is the ultimate fulfillment of the Feast of Tabernacles (described in Revelation 21:3)? We know this hasn't happened yet, so clearly this shadow isn't fulfilled just yet. My point is, God commanded that "his people" recognize the shadows *until* all is fulfilled. Hebrews 10:1-2 is pointing to a fact about the law and using it to explain the animal sacrifices, which is still true about the all the shadows: No shadow is the true fulfillment...but until a shadow is fulfilled it is to be remembered and rehearsed.


    Quote Originally Posted by RestingInJesus View Post
    3. Concerning the assertion that Jesus and Jewish Christians observed these things, and therefore they apply to us, they also observed physical circumcision and it was not mandatory or expected of Gentile believers..see Acts 21.

    [...]

    Therefore, remarks such as I Corinthians 5 regarding the festivals could have been addressed specifically to the Jews in the congregation, or there may have been some Gentile observers of the festivals..it doesn't matter. [...].
    A3) It's worth noting here that followers of Jesus were meant to follow Jesus. "See one, do one, teach one" as they say in surgical residency.

    In Acts 21 there was a meeting on what the new gentile converts had to follow vs what was unnecessary. Circumcision of the *foreskin* - post Christ - wasn't necessary because they weren't Jews by blood nor had a covenant with the land of Israel. But obedience to God's law still was required because they were being grafted INTO the original group. This was/is a covenant the gentiles were entering into with the God of *Israel* (who isn't to be confused with the pagan gods of their ancestors). Again, the recurring theme here is about setting apart God's people from their pagan peers. God doesn't conform to us. We're meant to conform to Him.

    Quote Originally Posted by RestingInJesus View Post

    4. Zachary mentioned that Leviticus 23 proclaims the festivals to be observed forever..the same Hebrew word "olam" is used in reference to the physical circumcision law too, and no biblically literate person claims that physical circumcision is still applicable. I would propose that the word "olam" means "unto the vanishing point" or the end of the period of applicability. Additionally, the Mosaic Covenant was given to ancient Israelites, not Christians under the New Covenant, therefore the "separation commandments" applied to them, not us.
    A4) Olam means "until the very end". Again, circumcision of the foreskin was for Jews...but circumcision is still a requirement; circumcision of the heart. The New testament is replete with references or restatements of OT scripture still applicable, that's why they're stated again. For instance, the example I just gave of circumcision:

    Leviticus 26:41

    I also was acting with hostility against them, to bring them into the land of their enemies-- or if their uncircumcised heart becomes humbled so that they then make amends for their iniquity,


    Jeremiah 4:4
    "Circumcise yourselves to the LORD And remove the foreskins of your heart, Men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem, Or else My wrath will go forth like fire And burn with none to quench it, Because of the evil of your deeds."


    Deut 10:16
    Circumcise your hearts, therefore, and do not be stiff-necked any longer.


    Deut 30:6
    "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.


    Matthew 22:36-38
    36“Teacher, which commandment is the greatest in the Law?” Jesus declared, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment


    This is why Paul reinforces this statement in Romans 2:29. He's not claiming something new but something found back in the original commands of God.


    No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person's praise is not from other people, but from God.


    ...so as far as Paul was concerned EVERYONE who's a Christian; who's part of the new testament church, IS a Jew on the inside and DOES undergo circumcision. The difference is in the flesh vs the spirit, but the same law applies.

    Quote Originally Posted by RestingInJesus View Post
    I would also delve into the specifics of what it means to observe the festivals and ask if Zach is really following the Mosaic Covenant. I doubt if he goes to Jerusalem 3 times a year for the pilgrimage festivals as Torah requires. Of course they will make up all kinds of excuses for why these elements of Torah don't apply anymore, because they want to continue in the illusion that they are observing Torah although in reality they are not.
    Apologies but here you're making the same mistake most make who argue against following the Torah. It's a mistake of ignorance. ALL of the Torah was NEVER for ALL of the people even back in the OT. Some laws were for men...some for women... some were for if you're in the land...some for whether you're healthy enough...some for whether you're wealthy enough, etc. In other words, God's grace and mercy is so thoroughly found in the very words of his law that it's a wonder why it's not more readily recognized. For instance,

    The law states that all ABLE-BODIED MALES travel to Jerusalem 3 times a year TO THE PLACE WHERE GOD PUT HIS NAME to worship him, giving WHAT HE IS ABLE to give. So this specific law is:

    - Gender specific (males)
    - Health specific (able-bodied)
    - Location specific (living in Israel)
    - Building specific (temple with God's name)
    - Wealth specific (financial ability)

    So females, sick males, male babies, and males far away from the land of Israel without the financial means to get there did NOT have to travel to Jerusalem. All of those are exceptions. God's grace and mercy baked into his law back in the "OT". Then today, there is no temple; no longer physical building where God has his name (in fulfillment of what Christ told the Samaritan woman). So there IS no temple to travel to even IF a person fulfilled all the other requirements in this law.

    To observe God's holidays is to obey the commandment to "remember the Sabbath and keep it holy" because each of God's holidays are High Sabbath days, in fact that's where we get the word "holiday" from. They are "Holy-days" where no work is performed just like the holidays of today are days off from work. But again the question is "who's holy days will God's people follow? Man's? or God's?" How are we "set-apart" from everyone else?

    Quote Originally Posted by RestingInJesus View Post
    I also notice attitude issues besides doctrinal issues. The attitude of an observer is to judge the non-observer, and this attitude is conveyed throughout Scripture. This issue is not simply a doctrinal one, and a matter of re-education. It is a spiritual issue. [...]
    To point out the corrected Colossians passage again, it's SPECIFICALLY the body of Christ's job to judge the body of Christ. We are meant to edify each other; to sharpen each other; to perfect each other unto the perfect man that is Christ...but I will indeed agree with you that anything done without love (even judging fellow believers in what they're supposed to be practicing) is still in vain. But we are supposed to set ourselves apart from the world. "Do not confirm to this world". The world celebrates Christmas regardless of their faith in Christ or not. That should be enough of a reason for a follower of Christ to question it, honestly.


    Quote Originally Posted by RestingInJesus View Post
    As a weasel Armstrongite, I would laugh at "pagan Christians" and scoff at their devotion to Jesus while in my Armstrongite circles, but would practice equivocation publicly in order to hide my contempt for other believers. I imagine the Hebrew Roots types engage in the same type of weasel behavior.
    Don't you realize that you're STILL making blanketed judgments here even on the other side of the table? With love, you're still guilty of the same sin. You can't unilaterally say you "imagine" other types of people in a certain group engaging in the same loveless behavior based on your personal behavior. For instance, I follow scripture both old and new so I'd be considered a Torah Observer yet I don't look down on you because I still sin. It doesn't matter what knowledge a person has over another if they don't have the right spirit to begin with because it simply turns them into a new generation of Pharisee who thinks they're better than others. Your issue wasn't so much observing Torah, as it was your admitted spirit.

    A true Torah-observant person wouldn't generate that spirit because (like we all say) the law leads to Christ (because Moses wrote of Christ), from whom we receive Christ's Holy Spirit through *his* words. If it doesn't lead to Christ and thus his Holy Spirit one's not really following Torah.

    Quote Originally Posted by RestingInJesus View Post
    I know that I am covered in the righteousness of Jesus, and that my salvation is already secure due to his cross-work. But when I meet Jesus face to face, I know his concern will be on whether I showed sacrificial love toward others, and not whether I kept Torah. That is clearly reflected in John 13 and the New Covenant institution, as well as the account concerning the sheep and goats in Matthew 25. Torah observers are ignoring the fact that sacrificial love is the new commandment under the New Covenant, and instead are fixated on observance of a handful of obsolete commandments of Torah (calendar and meat laws) in order to cover their spiritual nakedness. Instead their view is Torah observance = love. But Christ teaches I am to love others like he did, sacrificially, and his cross-work was a demonstration of that love. [...].

    I agree love is sacrifice. Truly. But there are two commandments Christ gave: To love our neighbor and to love God, the greatest of which is to Love God. Again, the greatest of the two is to love God with every fiber of one's being; love him with everything. On these two commandments hang all the law.

    And you've correctly defined how we're to have sacrificial love towards one another, which fulfills one of the two commandments Christ gave. But what about sacrificial love towards God? How does one *sacrificially* love God with their entire heart soul mind and strength? Again, love is sacrifice...and again, we're commanded to love BOTH our neighbor AND God (loving God MORE than our neighbor).

    Yes love is sacrifice, so how do WE...today...sacrifice to God with every ounce of us EXCEPT by doing things FOR GOD that are inconvenient FOR US (like resting on the Sabbath day though we have things to do before the new week begins)? Or uncomfortable FOR US (like remembering one of his holidays when it comes around, though we're not Jewish and never grew up following them)? Or that isolates & alienates us from our loved ones (like declining to celebrate Christmas though you're expected by family and friends, mothers, wives, children to celebrate together as you've always have)? Being spiritual sojourners in this world while we wait for our land, just like Abraham.


    In fact, we know that Abraham's faith was counted as righteousness (Gen 15:6), but notice what God describes that flowed from Abraham's faith: Obedience.


    Genesis 22:18
    And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.


    Genesis 26:5
    because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.


    Abraham loved God so much that he was willing to sacrifice the only son he had from his elderly wife to obey a commandment from God. What's the least we can do to show our faith? What sacrifice can we give of ourselves to show love on the level of Abraham for God no matter how it looks?

    "Oh here comes those weird, juvenile, self-righteous, Torah nuts again trying to ruin our fun." lol
    Malachi 3:2 - But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap. 3 He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the [priests of God] and refine them like gold and silver. Then the Lord will have [people] who will [worship] in righteousness.

    Ezekiel 36:27 - And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

    - Joshua

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    Default Re: More Anti-Holiday Fallacies

    Quote Originally Posted by RestingInJesus View Post
    Here's a debate between a Torah observer and a Christian on the subject of Christmas and whether the customs associated with it are pagan:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnTmOOgpYF8

    My notes on this video:

    Regarding this video: I am a former Armstrongite which is not far removed from Hebrew Roots beliefs. Some of the founders of HRM are former Armstrongites. Regarding the festivals of Leviticus 23, many think that Feast of Tabernacles relates to the Incarnation. Christ "tabernacled" amongst us in a body of flesh. Therefore by observing Feast of Tabernacles, Hebrew Roots Movement is recognizing the Incarnation. But, my point is that if anti-holiday people claim recognizing the Incarnation is wrong, then observing the Feast of Tabernacles is wrong if they are consistent in their reasoning that observing the Incarnation is wrong. Some think the Feast of Tabernacles refers to the Millenial reign of Christ so there are different views on what the festivals mean. I find no consistency amongst these groups. Regarding Zachary's remarks about the festivals of Leviticus 23, I would responded with these questions: 1. Why does John call both the Passover and the Feasts of Booths or Tabernacles the "Feasts of the Jews"? This does not suggest universal applicability. 2. Colossians 2:16-17 says that the festivals, sabbaths, and new moons were "shadows of things to come"..similar language is used in regards to the ceremonial law of Hebrews 10:1-2 which we know is done away with. Therefore, there is an association with Sabbaths, new moons and festivals with the defunct ceremonial laws. And who is the one usually judging others over days? Usually Torah observers and Armstrongite types. 3. Concerning the assertion that Jesus and Jewish Christians observed these things, and therefore they apply to us, they also observed physical circumcision and it was not mandatory or expected of Gentile believers..see Acts 21. Jewish Christians and maybe some Gentile Christians continued to observe these things, probably due to familiarity and to reach their family members evangelisticaly. It was part of their society as Jews. Some Gentiles may have observed them as a matter of preference as well, but this is by no means certain. It is true that Paul evangelized both Jews and Gentiles in the synagogues on the Sabbath, but that is where the people gathered and scrolls were housed. Additionally, it was Paul's habit to go to the synagogues first to reach Jews in Gentile cities, and when he was thrown out of the synagogue, he would employ other methods. Additionally, many Hebrew Roots movement teachers fail to acknowledge that in many Gentile cities, a sizeable group of Jews were also present. Therefore, remarks such as I Corinthians 5 regarding the festivals could have been addressed specifically to the Jews in the congregation, or there may have been some Gentile observers of the festivals..it doesn't matter. Either way, there is no definitive proof that both Jews and Gentiles were observing Sabbath and festivals. In fact, neither Sabbath-breaking or eating unclean meats was ever mentioned as a sin in any of the epistles to the Gentiles. Invariably this would have been an issue, because many early Christians were slaves belonging to Gentile masters. Therefore, the issue of Sabbath-keeping would have presented itself, as well as dietary restrictions. Inconsistencies like this caused me to reject Armstrongite teaching concerning the continued applicability of these elements of the Mosaic Covenant. 4. Zachary mentioned that Leviticus 23 proclaims the festivals to be observed forever..the same Hebrew word "olam" is used in reference to the physical circumcision law too, and no biblically literate person claims that physical circumcision is still applicable. I would propose that the word "olam" means "unto the vanishing point" or the end of the period of applicability. Additionally, the Mosaic Covenant was given to ancient Israelites, not Christians under the New Covenant, therefore the "separation commandments" applied to them, not us. Galatians 3 and 4 are clear in teaching that the Mosaic Covenant does not apply anymore. It's purpose was to lead the Jews to the Messiah, and it has served that purpose, at least for those Jews who were part of the elect. It taught the gospel in types and shadows, and also revealed to the Jews the holy character of God at some rudimentary level so that they would recognize that they fell far short and would be ready to accept the Messiah and justification by faith in him and his atoning sacrifice on their behalf. Judaizers failed to realize the purpose of the Mosaic Covenant, just like Hebrew Roots Movement believers today. I would also delve into the specifics of what it means to observe the festivals and ask if Zach is really following the Mosaic Covenant. I doubt if he goes to Jerusalem 3 times a year for the pilgrimage festivals as Torah requires. Of course they will make up all kinds of excuses for why these elements of Torah don't apply anymore, because they want to continue in the illusion that they are observing Torah although in reality they are not. I also notice attitude issues besides doctrinal issues. The attitude of an observer is to judge the non-observer, and this attitude is conveyed throughout Scripture. This issue is not simply a doctrinal one, and a matter of re-education. It is a spiritual issue. Regarding Zachary's remark that no one in the Bible observed anything in December..Jesus observed the Feast of Dedication apparently. See John 10:22. It was not one of the festivals mentioned in Leviticus 23; it was a man-made tradition related to the rededication of the Temple in Jerusalem following the Maccabean Revolt..therefore Zach's remark is incorrect. Feast of Dedication is as same as Hanukkah and it is observed on 25th of Kislev (which is usually in December). As a former observer, I wouldn't associate with any Torah observer group or Armstrongite group in the future, nor will I observe the Sabbath or festivals (unless it would be with a very selected Messianic Jew group who has sound doctrine and doesn't judge non-observers) because I know the attitude that typically accompanies Torah observers and Armstrongites. It's a very rare group that isn't engaged in judging and slandering other believers...accusing them of being spiritually inferior or even unsaved due to non-observance of Sabbath, festivals and clean meat laws. If they don't come right out and say it in public, in their own groups they express these views. As a weasel Armstrongite, I would laugh at "pagan Christians" and scoff at their devotion to Jesus while in my Armstrongite circles, but would practice equivocation publicly in order to hide my contempt for other believers. I imagine the Hebrew Roots types engage in the same type of weasel behavior. I know that I am covered in the righteousness of Jesus, and that my salvation is already secure due to his cross-work. But when I meet Jesus face to face, I know his concern will be on whether I showed sacrificial love toward others, and not whether I kept Torah. That is clearly reflected in John 13 and the New Covenant institution, as well as the account concerning the sheep and goats in Matthew 25. Torah observers are ignoring the fact that sacrificial love is the new commandment under the New Covenant, and instead are fixated on observance of a handful of obsolete commandments of Torah (calendar and meat laws) in order to cover their spiritual nakedness. Instead their view is Torah observance = love. But Christ teaches I am to love others like he did, sacrificially, and his cross-work was a demonstration of that love. Anyways, I think Michael was effective in showing that the anti-holiday people don't have the solid historical evidence to back up their position. One of my uncles used to say that such-and-such was so full of hot air that he could blow up an onion sack (those meshlike sacks used to bag onions). That's what I think about the anti-holiday people. They are basically ascribing to a National Enquirer-like view of Christianity, fueled by the writings of Hislop, Grimm and others, either first, second or third hand, as well as the excessive anti-Roman Catholic rhetoric of the Reformers. They are operating under a juvenile paradigm that has long since been discredited.

    Please learn to use paragraphs. If you have something worth saying, it is worth saying clearly. Throwing a wall of text at someone does nothing to encourage them to read what you say. In fact, it makes it quite difficult.

    The normal perception of an average reader is to judge a wall of text as something coming from a deranged mind or from someone not intelligent enough to pass 6th grade English.

    I am not trying to be a grammar nazi, just letting you know that if you want people to read what you write, you need to write wisely and help people understand what you are trying to communicate. Paragraphs go a long ways toward putting your thoughts into bite sized ideas that people can chew on and not get lost in a wall of verbiage.

    FWIW
    The best way to help others understand and experience God's love better is to understand and experience it better yourself.

    Understanding and experiencing God's love better everyday is the most important task for anyone who considers him/herself to be a Christian.


    Love without truth is deception. Truth without love is arrogance. God's love and God's truth balanced is God's wisdom.

    The more one promotes himself and/or his ideas, the less he cares about eternal life for others.

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    Default Re: More Anti-Holiday Fallacies

    Here is part two of the "Christmas is not pagan" series by InspiringPhilosophy.



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfcvJWPTY64
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    Default Re: More Anti-Holiday Fallacies

    Quote Originally Posted by RestingInJesus View Post
    Here is part two of the "Christmas is not pagan" series by InspiringPhilosophy.



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfcvJWPTY64
    I've been sharing their videos via YouTube. Really good stuff.

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    Default Re: More Anti-Holiday Fallacies

    Quote Originally Posted by Yahshua View Post
    With respect this is a false comparison and broad-brush fallacy. Torah Observers against Christmas aren't "anti-holiday". On the contrary, they're 100% and exclusively FOR the holidays God established in scripture (which were meant to separate/set-apart "his people" from the world and their worship). The Feast of Tabernacles is a "holiday". No Torah Observer specifically claims "recognizing the incarnation is wrong".

    I don't know I guess I'd ask, if God shared the actual date of Christ's birthday with you would you celebrate the actual date? Or still celebrate Christmas because it's tradition? Because Christ was incarnated on the feast of Tabernacles detailed in the first chapters of Luke.
    Great work. Christmas has always had pagan origins and what it has transpired to become is far removed from the real Christ as we know Him and are commanded to obey under the principles of His word.
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    Default Re: More Anti-Holiday Fallacies

    Quote Originally Posted by laura_charlotte View Post
    Great work. Christmas has always had pagan origins and what it has transpired to become is far removed from the real Christ as we know Him and are commanded to obey under the principles of His word.
    You don't bother reading/viewing opposing views, do you? It's perfectly fine for you not to celebrate Christmas. But it's false to say Christmas has always had pagan origins. The links RestingInJesus provided will be helpful in clearing the air.

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    Default Re: More Anti-Holiday Fallacies

    Quote Originally Posted by Tintin View Post
    You don't bother reading/viewing opposing views, do you? It's perfectly fine for you not to celebrate Christmas. But it's false to say Christmas has always had pagan origins. The links RestingInJesus provided will be helpful in clearing the air.
    well I thought post 12, refutting what the O.P. said was a very good rebuttal.

    did you bother reading it?
    laura_charlotte likes this.

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    Default Re: More Anti-Holiday Fallacies

    Quote Originally Posted by Yahshua View Post
    Those not familiar with the culture wouldn't have had any clue what these names meant much less have any understanding of their prophetic significance (in fulfillment of "OT", which definitely wasn't translated & distributed with the gospels at the time), so the translators altered the text, either deciding within themselves that the feasts weren't important enough to name OR not understanding the culture enough themselves to know how to translate or explain these feasts.

    But more to the point, I'm sure you know that Christ was confirm as the one who'd come through fulfillment of the prophecies in the "OT", so it was critically important to rehearse the feasts because (a) that's what God said for his people to do [this should be enough of a reason alone]...and (b) he said he'd "visit" his people on his feast days. He literally scheduled visits. God doesn't change. We can't get more universal than to have the God of the universe visit mankind on a date he set on his calendar.

    To observe God's holidays is to obey the commandment to "remember the Sabbath and keep it holy" because each of God's holidays are High Sabbath days, in fact that's where we get the word "holiday" from. They are "Holy-days" where no work is performed just like the holidays of today are days off from work. But again the question is "who's holy days will God's people follow? Man's? or God's?" How are we "set-apart" from everyone else?

    To point out the corrected Colossians passage again, it's SPECIFICALLY the body of Christ's job to judge the body of Christ. We are meant to edify each other; to sharpen each other; to perfect each other unto the perfect man that is Christ...but I will indeed agree with you that anything done without love (even judging fellow believers in what they're supposed to be practicing) is still in vain. But we are supposed to set ourselves apart from the world. "Do not confirm to this world". The world celebrates Christmas regardless of their faith in Christ or not. That should be enough of a reason for a follower of Christ to question it, honestly.

    Abraham loved God so much that he was willing to sacrifice the only son he had from his elderly wife to obey a commandment from God. What's the least we can do to show our faith? What sacrifice can we give of ourselves to show love on the level of Abraham for God no matter how it looks?

    "Oh here comes those weird, juvenile, self-righteous, Torah nuts again trying to ruin our fun." lol
    Fantastic points. I put out a thread a few of years prior, on the pagan origins in reference as our church community and study groups poured over this for many years together in conjunction with prayer, as such, this post was edifying to read.

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    Default Re: More Anti-Holiday Fallacies

    Only takes a couple of scriptures to decide this one...

    Jer 10:2* Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.*
    Jer 10:3* For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.*
    Jer 10:4* They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.*
    Jer 10:5* They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.*

    Deu 12:29* When the LORD thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest to possess them, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their land;*
    Deu 12:30* Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.*
    Deu 12:31* Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.*
    Deu 12:32* What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.*

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