Calvinism - Another Heresy
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HIS will Is done to whosoever believes In HIS WORD.I don't believe In calvin one bit because GOD's WORD tolds us WHOSOEVER WILL In John 3:16.
Adam was given a choice and Instead of choosing GOD's WORD which Is the truth,he(adam)chose his own way but GOD didn't abandon man but made a way by sending HIS WORD (JESUS).
BTW I think we are In agreement on Calvinism.
Adam was given a choice and Instead of choosing GOD's WORD which Is the truth,he(adam)chose his own way but GOD didn't abandon man but made a way by sending HIS WORD (JESUS).
BTW I think we are In agreement on Calvinism.
P
HIS will Is done to whosoever believes In HIS WORD.I don't believe In calvin one bit because GOD's WORD tolds us WHOSOEVER WILL In John 3:16.
Adam was given a choice and Instead of choosing GOD's WORD which Is the truth,he(adam)chose his own way but GOD didn't abandon man but made a way by sending HIS WORD (JESUS).
BTW I think we are In agreement on Calvinism.
Adam was given a choice and Instead of choosing GOD's WORD which Is the truth,he(adam)chose his own way but GOD didn't abandon man but made a way by sending HIS WORD (JESUS).
BTW I think we are In agreement on Calvinism.
I do think that God created Adam with the full knowledge that both Adam and Eve would disobey. I don't believe he made them with anything lacking or a sin nature. I believe they are the only two humans to be born without a sin nature. I think Jonathan Edwards was the only Calvinist that ended up taking this further and admitted that he thought that perhaps God had made Adam with a tendency to sin or sinful disposition. I could be wrong but I don't think that most Calvinists believe that. I believe that God knew that humanity would fall and already had the plan of redemption in place before the creation of man. God had to know all our future actions and responses or he would cease to be omniscient. I can see how some interpret this foreknowledge to mean that we are without a choice. However, just because God knew that humanity would sin does not take away our choice or guilt when we sin.
There is some biblical support for the will of God being accomplished by the actions of evil men. Pharaoh was evil ( in fact, scripture says that God hardened his heart ) and through his stubbornness brought about a great display of God's power. Any other man would probably have buckled way earlier, maybe even after the first plague. God wanted such an evil pharaoh on the throne to resist and rebel so that he might bring judgement on the Egyptians and display his power. God didn't make Pharoah evil but he did predestine him to be pharaoh during the exodus and did put him in situations that he knew would harden his already evil heart. Same thing with Judas Iscariot. God predestined him to be chosen as one of the twelve. He was picked to fulfill the role of traitor and help along the plan of redemption. It's clear that Pharoah and Judas were vessels of wrath. They weren't forced to sin, but were chosen from the beginning or "predestined"
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or hey, even go back a few verses.
see Whose will is at work
((i know it's fun to pull john 3:16-17 out and ignore the rest of the conversation with Nicodemus, but we oughtta really consider the whole context here))
“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
"The wind blows where it wills, and you hear the sound thereof, but can not tell from where it came, and where it goes: so is everyone that is born of the Spirit."
"The wind blows where it wills, and you hear the sound thereof, but can not tell from where it came, and where it goes: so is everyone that is born of the Spirit."
see Whose will is at work
((i know it's fun to pull john 3:16-17 out and ignore the rest of the conversation with Nicodemus, but we oughtta really consider the whole context here))
it's as if the carnal man in us thinks he has chosen God, and then when he is redeemed, the spiritual man realizes that it is God who has chosen him.
the natural man judges, accusing God and pardoning men, & sees Him ordaining some to hell, but the spiritual man judges nothing but only sees Him showing mercy, threshing grain and demonstrating justice.
whosoever will may drink.
but whosoever exists - the Lord is their Maker and Redeemer, and it's by His own will that they come, because it is Him who calls, and He knows who He calls; they are His own sheep
P
I think salvation is a complex topic. There is God's part and man's reaction. I can see why some view their own salvation as something they didn't seek and was forced in a way on them. I agree with the point you are making. I think God's influence in our lives can be so overwhelming and the conviction of the Holy Spirit can be so intense that a person can be so overcome by this and feel no other option but submission. In a way, this influence is iresistible. I do think though that we do have a choice to yield. Maybe some never reach this point of intense conviction because they have been hardening their hearts and quenching conviction all along the way. The bible does warn us to not quench his spirit.
D
I admire you for stating what you believe. No taunting. No hypocrisy. No request to take your word for it without even telling us why you believe what you say. I really do.
And if we never agree on this issue, I don't think it affects our status in salvation or sanctification simply because we also weren't ever chosen for our ability to understand God perfectly, or for the brains to understand scripture perfectly. God doesn't choose from an IQ test or a comprehension test either. (If he did, none would be chosen. lol)
BUT, how can he be good, just, loving, merciful, wrathful, and all his other attributes (that we both do agree on through his word, even if we may not get it as fully as he does, and may never)?
I cannot explain it better than Jesus did in two spots.
The first one you know from the first verse, but keep reading it, because something amazing happens in Jesus' explanation as a whole. (aka pretend this is the first time you've ever read it and pay attention to the words. lol)
John 3:[FONT="]16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”[/FONT]
Did you see something odd there? First he said his Father loved the world so much he sent Jesus to die for it. But then he tells the reaction of the world. We continue to hide in the darkness to keep our sin because we hate the God! (Isn't that our default setting, in that's what we want to do whenever faced with sin? AND we would do it if he didn't bring his light to us?) And how does that light come to us? It says it in verse 21 -- "carried out by God." Not us! We're still considering the darkness. God carries it out.
Is that not predestined? Is that not God choosing despite our choice? We did make a choice. (Free agency.) Our choice was to hide in the darkness and hate God. What changed? And how did it change?
And he says the same thing in other words in John 6:35-40:
[FONT="]35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”[/FONT]
Same thing. He came, we didn't believe, and yet he would lose none his Father gave him. His Father gave him. Not none of whom chose. We're still back in "yet do not believe," until God turned the light on. Then, and only then, do we announce, "Eureka! I choose God!" lol
But, of course we do, AFTER he chose us. Rather like going to an animal shelter and the animals saying, "I choose that family." They'll love a family that loves them, but they don't choose that family. We love God when he already chose to love us. Who doesn't love someone that loves you?
Does that make more sense to you? Again, you don't have to agree. BUT you are the first person on this thread honest enough to tell what you think fully, instead of getting busy whipping people for daring to be unlike you.
And if we never agree on this issue, I don't think it affects our status in salvation or sanctification simply because we also weren't ever chosen for our ability to understand God perfectly, or for the brains to understand scripture perfectly. God doesn't choose from an IQ test or a comprehension test either. (If he did, none would be chosen. lol)
BUT, how can he be good, just, loving, merciful, wrathful, and all his other attributes (that we both do agree on through his word, even if we may not get it as fully as he does, and may never)?
I cannot explain it better than Jesus did in two spots.
The first one you know from the first verse, but keep reading it, because something amazing happens in Jesus' explanation as a whole. (aka pretend this is the first time you've ever read it and pay attention to the words. lol)
John 3:[FONT="]16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”[/FONT]
Did you see something odd there? First he said his Father loved the world so much he sent Jesus to die for it. But then he tells the reaction of the world. We continue to hide in the darkness to keep our sin because we hate the God! (Isn't that our default setting, in that's what we want to do whenever faced with sin? AND we would do it if he didn't bring his light to us?) And how does that light come to us? It says it in verse 21 -- "carried out by God." Not us! We're still considering the darkness. God carries it out.
Is that not predestined? Is that not God choosing despite our choice? We did make a choice. (Free agency.) Our choice was to hide in the darkness and hate God. What changed? And how did it change?
And he says the same thing in other words in John 6:35-40:
[FONT="]35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”[/FONT]
Same thing. He came, we didn't believe, and yet he would lose none his Father gave him. His Father gave him. Not none of whom chose. We're still back in "yet do not believe," until God turned the light on. Then, and only then, do we announce, "Eureka! I choose God!" lol
But, of course we do, AFTER he chose us. Rather like going to an animal shelter and the animals saying, "I choose that family." They'll love a family that loves them, but they don't choose that family. We love God when he already chose to love us. Who doesn't love someone that loves you?
Does that make more sense to you? Again, you don't have to agree. BUT you are the first person on this thread honest enough to tell what you think fully, instead of getting busy whipping people for daring to be unlike you.