Calvinism - Total Depravity

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nowyouseem033

nowyouseem033

Senior Member
#1
Jul 17, 2014
535
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#1
I know there is already discussion going on about this on other threads but i wanted to break it down at its key points and discuss biblically the accuracy or inaccuracy of Calvinism. I do this because it is such a vast topic to discuss with many different things which tie into each other and it can so often get really confusing to the point where we are misinterpreting someones statements or unfortunately even worse, reverting to name calling and outright mockery.

T.U.L.I.P

Total depravity
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement
Irresistible Grace
Preservation of the saints

The arguments against calvinism are as follows:

Partial Depravity
Conditional Election
Unlimited Atonement
Resistible Grace
Loss of Salvation

I understand these arent exactly all of it in specific but generally speaking will do.

So to the first point the letter T - Total Depravity?

We are totally unable to respond to God in any capacity until Gods grace awakens our sinful hearts to respond to the gospel.
We are so 'dead in sin' that there is no desire for us to want God at all unless God overcomes our wicked hearts and transforms us to now be able to love him and want him.

Are these biblical affirmations or not?
 
Spurgeoncy

Spurgeoncy

Banned
#2
Dec 13, 2016
744
6
0
#2
Depraved means someone who likes evil perversions. Like the Marquis De Sade.

Totally Depraved means the worst excesses of devil worshippers (like the Marquis de Sade)

Are all unsaved human beings like this?

No

Next
 
U

Ugly

Guest
#3
#3
Like i've said before, everyone think their take is so correct, and they are so important, that they have to have their own threads. Ego driven. Nothing said here couldn't have been said in the other divisive thread on the subject someone else started.
 
notmyown

notmyown

Senior Member
#4
May 26, 2016
4,656
1,106
113
#4
Spurgeoncy said:
Depraved means someone who likes evil perversions. Like the Marquis De Sade.

Totally Depraved means the worst excesses of devil worshippers (like the Marquis de Sade)

Are all unsaved human beings like this?

No

Next
Click to expand...

theologically speaking, there's a huge difference between total depravity and utter depravity.

if you like, you can study it before you reject it.
 
Zmouth

Zmouth

Senior Member
#5
Nov 21, 2012
3,391
134
63
#5
Spurgeoncy said:
Depraved means someone who likes evil perversions. Like the Marquis De Sade.

Totally Depraved means the worst excesses of devil worshippers (like the Marquis de Sade)

Are all unsaved human beings like this?

No

Next
Click to expand...
So I take it you have an actually read the writings of the Marquis correct?
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#6
Jun 30, 2015
24,681
13,367
113
#6
Spurgeoncy said:
Depraved means someone who likes evil perversions. Like the Marquis De Sade.

Totally Depraved means the worst excesses of devil worshippers (like the Marquis de Sade)

Are all unsaved human beings like this?

No

Next
Click to expand...
Sadly, this post merely displays ignorance of the topic. As another has said already there is a difference between depravity in the colloquial sense and in the theological sense.

In the theological sense, depravity means inability to do what is righteous and the absence of desire to act righteously. It includes all excesses of sin but also the mere inclination to sin.
 
Zmouth

Zmouth

Senior Member
#7
Nov 21, 2012
3,391
134
63
#7
nowyouseem033 said:
I know there is already discussion going on about this on other threads but i wanted to break it down at its key points and discuss biblically the accuracy or inaccuracy of Calvinism. I do this because it is such a vast topic to discuss with many different things which tie into each other and it can so often get really confusing to the point where we are misinterpreting someones statements or unfortunately even worse, reverting to name calling and outright mockery.

T.U.L.I.P

Total depravity
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement
Irresistible Grace
Preservation of the saints

The arguments against calvinism are as follows:

Partial Depravity
Conditional Election
Unlimited Atonement
Resistible Grace
Loss of Salvation

I understand these arent exactly all of it in specific but generally speaking will do.

So to the first point the letter T - Total Depravity?

We are totally unable to respond to God in any capacity until Gods grace awakens our sinful hearts to respond to the gospel.
We are so 'dead in sin' that there is no desire for us to want God at all unless God overcomes our wicked hearts and transforms us to now be able to love him and want him.

Are these biblical affirmations or not?
Click to expand...
So why did you come to your faith in the LORD?

Was it Job 2:4 or 1 John 4:19?
 
Spurgeoncy

Spurgeoncy

Banned
#8
Dec 13, 2016
744
6
0
#8
Dino246 said:
Sadly, this post merely displays ignorance of the topic. As another has said already there is a difference between depravity in the colloquial sense and in the theological sense.

In the theological sense, depravity means inability to do what is righteous and the absence of desire to act righteously. It includes all excesses of sin but also the mere inclination to sin.
Click to expand...
Oh stop.

Let's all just pluck words out of the dictionary and attach spurious meanings to them.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#9
#9
while I agree in total depravity, I think some people take it to far.

There are non righteous, and non that seeks good, that's a fact. and I agree, that is total depravity..

But a person can see his situation, in fact knows it (Romans 1) thus no man has an excuse for rejecting Christ) and out of that, can seek truth, or a way out and this opens the door for God to show them, and gives them an opportunity to receive Christ, or reject him.

and they are saved or not saved based on that choice.

They either remain in unbelief (condemned already because they have not believed) or they are saved by grace through faith (those who believe have life eternal)

God gets all the glory, Because he did all the work. Man gets no glory, because he could not even look up to God. or do a thing to save himself, He had to put his faith COMPLETELY in christ.
 
notmyown

notmyown

Senior Member
#10
May 26, 2016
4,656
1,106
113
#10
Spurgeoncy said:
Oh stop.

Let's all just pluck words out of the dictionary and attach spurious meanings to them.
Click to expand...
would it be too much to ask that you support your position from the Bible in the Bible Discussion Forum? :rolleyes: ;)
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#11
Apr 22, 2013
12,923
8,654
113
#11
Genesis 6 5 [FONT=&quot]Then the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Lord[/FONT][FONT=&quot][b][/FONT][FONT=&quot] saw that the wickedness of man [/FONT]was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

This verse, in my mind, is what total depravity means. You can take this verse to mean ALL people, in ALL times are totally depraved, or that TOTAL depravity, by everyone, save Noah, only existed pre-flood, and possibly as Jesus said "as in the days of Noah" referring to the end times.

Again, the same arguments can be made for or against free will. From our perspective, right now, we can choose Jesus. I don't think we can fully grasp God's Sovereignty vs. our free will. Choose Jesus. Give your free will to Him.
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#12
#12
Are three threads on this subject really necessary?
 
notmyown

notmyown

Senior Member
#13
May 26, 2016
4,656
1,106
113
#13
kaylagrl said:
Are three threads on this subject really necessary?
Click to expand...
idk? ;)

you know how it is, if there's a really disputatious thread, pretty soon it breeds more. :rolleyes:

but i believe the OP is trying to respond rationally to another thread that's emotionalism?

i think so, anyway. :)
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#14
#14
notmyown said:
idk? ;)

you know how it is, if there's a really disputatious thread, pretty soon it breeds more. :rolleyes:

but i believe the OP is trying to respond rationally to another thread that's emotionalism?

i think so, anyway. :)
Click to expand...

I think people still mostly stick to one thread though. We need to start a "Not about Calvinism" thread. :)
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#16
Jan 13, 2016
16,616
3,529
113
#16
PennEd said:
Genesis 6 5 Then the Lord[b] saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

This verse, in my mind, is what total depravity means. You can take this verse to mean ALL people, in ALL times are totally depraved, or that TOTAL depravity, by everyone, save Noah, only existed pre-flood, and possibly as Jesus said "as in the days of Noah" referring to the end times.

Again, the same arguments can be made for or against free will. From our perspective, right now, we can choose Jesus. I don't think we can fully grasp God's Sovereignty vs. our free will. Choose Jesus. Give your free will to Him.
Click to expand...
There's more to this passage. If this is the natural condition of every man at all times, then why did God want to destroy man and start over with Noah? All flesh had corrupted itself with the sons of God except for Noah's blood line. Noah was perfect in his generations. There was an all out attack on the seed line by Satan and his fallen angels.
 
G

garee

Banned
#17
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
#17
nowyouseem033 said:
I know there is already discussion going on about this on other threads but i wanted to break it down at its key points and discuss biblically the accuracy or inaccuracy of Calvinism. I do this because it is such a vast topic to discuss with many different things which tie into each other and it can so often get really confusing to the point where we are misinterpreting someones statements or unfortunately even worse, reverting to name calling and outright mockery.

T.U.L.I.P

Total depravity
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement
Irresistible Grace
Preservation of the saints

The arguments against calvinism are as follows:

Partial Depravity
Conditional Election
Unlimited Atonement
Resistible Grace
Loss of Salvation

I understand these arent exactly all of it in specific but generally speaking will do.

So to the first point the letter T - Total Depravity?

We are totally unable to respond to God in any capacity until Gods grace awakens our sinful hearts to respond to the gospel.
We are so 'dead in sin' that there is no desire for us to want God at all unless God overcomes our wicked hearts and transforms us to now be able to love him and want him.

Are these biblical affirmations or not?
Click to expand...
yes...A couple to support.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

In other words it is impossible .No man can

Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Unless He gives us His understanding... how could us simple ones seek Him who has no form? He does the converting . Do we use the imaginations of our own heart as the source of Christian faith?

Psalms 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

The tulip is not something that came from him to begin with. it was something that someone added.
 
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G

garee

Banned
#18
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
#18
It is perhaps worth noting that the Dutch word is not “tulip” but “tulp.” “Tulip” isn’t Dutch.It makes a person I wonder whether Arminius was just trying to correct someone’s spelling when he was accused of omitting that “i” for irresistible grace. More seriously, there is no historical association between the acrostic TULIP and the Canons of Dort.
 
Bladerunner

Bladerunner

Senior Member
#19
Aug 22, 2016
3,076
59
48
#19
kaylagrl said:
I think people still mostly stick to one thread though. We need to start a "Not about Calvinism" thread. :)
Click to expand...


already did that.... here goes again.

The Sovereignty of God vs. The Sovereignty of Man

or

Calvinism vs. Arminianism

The Question: How are both wrong in what they deny?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#20
#20
Bladerunner said:
already did that.... here goes again.

The Sovereignty of God vs. The Sovereignty of Man

or

Calvinism vs. Arminianism

The Question: How are both wrong in what they deny?
Click to expand...
They both have issues. Although one more than another.
 
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