To all the post trib and no trib believers.

[pottersclay]

To Be Found in Christ

Jonathan Parnell | Mon, Jan 21, 2013 | Set 3 Week 4


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Philippians 3:9,

and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—
​

Paul has declared in Philippians 3:7–8 his all-surpassing desire to know Jesus. The glories of Christ out-weigh all the things that Paul formerly valued. Jesus is better, period. In verse 9, he continues with a word that grounds his affections. He has said he loves Jesus and now he shows one reality that makes Jesus so lovable.
Let’s the look at this verse in two parts: first, what it means to be found in Christ; and second, what is its relationship to righteousness.
Found in Him

Not only does Paul consider Jesus better than everything else, but he wants to be found in him. To be found in Christ introduces the central metaphor in Paul’s theology: union with Christ. It is the grammar of the gospel by which Paul speaks, as Sinclair Ferguson has said. Being found in Jesus is actually cosmic in its scope. The world, as Romans 5:12–21 tells us, is divided into two humanities, Adam or Jesus. There is the old age (in Adam) and the new creation (in Christ).
Paul is not speaking sentimentally here. He is reconstituting his entire personhood. To be found in Christ is to come to the end of self, the end of Adam and the old age. Paul is saying that he wants to be defined altogether differently, not dead in sin, but alive to God in Christ (Romans 6:11). He is a new man within a new humanity that’s part of a new world (Ephesians 2:14–18).
Having His Righteousness

Now the theme of union with Christ converges with another vital metaphor in Paul’s theology: the righteousness of God. For to be found in Christ — to be a new creature (2 Corinthians 5:17) — is to be absolutely acquitted in the divine court. Paul desiring to be found in Christ abandons all attempts to forge a righteousness of his own. His law-keeping is rubbish. Whatever he has, it isn’t good enough. And faith in Jesus, the desire to found in Jesus, says that and more.
The righteousness that Paul needs, and the righteousness that Paul has in Christ, is the righteousness that comes through faith in Christ. We see here that being found in Christ and faith in Christ are two ways of speaking about the same reality. To be in Christ is to cling to him by faith. We are united to Christ by faith and faith in Christ is the spirit of our union. And his righteousness becomes ours. “Righteous” is the sovereign decree that transforms the standing of a guilty sinner into a justified saint, and it is the free gift to those who believe (Romans 4:5).
This passage is the tip of the spear. Union with Christ and his righteousness. Yes. Yes, Father. We want that. We want to be found in Christ, not having a righteousness of our own, but the righteousness that comes only through faith in Christ, your righteousness that depends on faith. Amen.


To Be Found in Christ

Jonathan Parnell | Mon, Jan 21, 2013 | Set 3 Week 4


Share| 4 Comments
Philippians 3:9,

and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—
​

Paul has declared in Philippians 3:7–8 his all-surpassing desire to know Jesus. The glories of Christ out-weigh all the things that Paul formerly valued. Jesus is better, period. In verse 9, he continues with a word that grounds his affections. He has said he loves Jesus and now he shows one reality that makes Jesus so lovable.
Let’s the look at this verse in two parts: first, what it means to be found in Christ; and second, what is its relationship to righteousness.
Found in Him

Not only does Paul consider Jesus better than everything else, but he wants to be found in him. To be found in Christ introduces the central metaphor in Paul’s theology: union with Christ. It is the grammar of the gospel by which Paul speaks, as Sinclair Ferguson has said. Being found in Jesus is actually cosmic in its scope. The world, as Romans 5:12–21 tells us, is divided into two humanities, Adam or Jesus. There is the old age (in Adam) and the new creation (in Christ).
Paul is not speaking sentimentally here. He is reconstituting his entire personhood. To be found in Christ is to come to the end of self, the end of Adam and the old age. Paul is saying that he wants to be defined altogether differently, not dead in sin, but alive to God in Christ (Romans 6:11). He is a new man within a new humanity that’s part of a new world (Ephesians 2:14–18).
Having His Righteousness

Now the theme of union with Christ converges with another vital metaphor in Paul’s theology: the righteousness of God. For to be found in Christ — to be a new creature (2 Corinthians 5:17) — is to be absolutely acquitted in the divine court. Paul desiring to be found in Christ abandons all attempts to forge a righteousness of his own. His law-keeping is rubbish. Whatever he has, it isn’t good enough. And faith in Jesus, the desire to found in Jesus, says that and more.
The righteousness that Paul needs, and the righteousness that Paul has in Christ, is the righteousness that comes through faith in Christ. We see here that being found in Christ and faith in Christ are two ways of speaking about the same reality. To be in Christ is to cling to him by faith. We are united to Christ by faith and faith in Christ is the spirit of our union. And his righteousness becomes ours. “Righteous” is the sovereign decree that transforms the standing of a guilty sinner into a justified saint, and it is the free gift to those who believe (Romans 4:5).
This passage is the tip of the spear. Union with Christ and his righteousness. Yes. Yes, Father. We want that. We want to be found in Christ, not having a righteousness of our own, but the righteousness that comes only through faith in Christ, your righteousness that depends on faith. Amen.



Adam said eve was bone of his bone flesh of his flesh so I have a question for ya. If you believe that the church (bride) of Christ goes through the tribulation brought on by God's wrath isn't that like beating and crucifing Jesus again?

Also it would be much appreciated if you could point me to the text that shows that it's scriptural or customary for the father of the groom to beat on and kill if necessary the choosen bride of his son.

How is the church to function if the holy spirit is taken out so that the man of sin is revealed.

Revelation 5:9 that new song....who else was redeemed by the blood?

Thank you in advance.......Potter the confused.

 

[pottersclay]

As in the days of Noah........As in the days of lot..

 

[Blain]

Hi potter As one who was once a hard core pretrib believer I can completely understand where your coming from however we also have other aspects to consider. Now the interesting thing of not having a firm stance on the pre mid or post rapture is that I was able to see what I could not before I was so firm in my belief of the pre trib that i was completely blind to the scriptures that seem to indicate otherwise in fact I remember being in debates and completely ignoring any scripture that opposed my pretrib belief and when I saw all this it made me dive deeper into studying the scriptures about this subject.

Bible prophecy even apart from the prophetic dreams and visions I have received was always a subject I loved to study now from what I have seen there are scriptures to support all three views of the rapture but there is also one more that is less spoken about called pre wrath. In all honesty this makes sense to me while the catching away is in fact a rescue of sorts it's more than that it's a calling a blessing a gift it's not simply to escape what is to come it's a reunion with the groom it's the longing to be with him answered at last.

But as I have seen many see the catching away as simply an escape not just from what is to come but from pain sorrow and lifes hardship in general and while there is nothing wrong with this many without even meaning to put it above simply wanting to be with him and know him to the fullest extent.But Jesus never said we wouldn't see what is to come did he? He also never said we wouldn't go through it either. Think of noah for example yes he was saved from drowning but he still saw all that happened he still felt the harsh waves crash against the boat he still heard the harsh winds.

Also think of this all through out the bible there are so many times when his people would not necessarily be taken away from the hardships but rather would be protected and strengthened in them, when Daniels friends were to be put in the fire they were not taken away from it rather Jesus met them in the fire and protected them when Peter was in the harsh storm he was not taken away from the storm rather was called out to meet Jesus in the midst of the storm and when peter fell Jesus brought him right back up in the time of acts the believers were hardly ever saved from tribulation rather they were empowered to be strong and to shine God's light in it.

Prophecy often times is foreshadowed all through out the bible and like history often times repeats itself, simply because of the pattern I saw I thought it might be possible that we may be called to do the same however nothing is set in stone none of us truly know how this is going to go down no matter how sure we think we are.

Me personally I did not seek to be strong in love and and faith for myself I did not desire to be rich and overflowing if love faith and the light of God for my sake. If I could have it my way I would love to go home for a time to spend time with him to receive the treasures of his heart I have so exhaustively sought after and after a time of being with him I want to come back on earth during this time of blood and darkness so that I share all my treasures in vast abundance in a time when more so than ever in history and ever again his love light and hope will be needed the most.

This has been my desire since the beginning of my faith and I had a dream a while that may in fact be confirmation of my hearts desire. In this dream I recall being with my family when suddenly a king appeared and told me I am royalty and offered me the chance to come and live with him in his kingdom and while I loved my family I chose to live with this king we went into the sky far above even space itself into a realm or dimension that no one could ever hope to reach. in his kingdom I was royalty I wore the finest clothes I was never without and I was rich I finally knew what it felt like to be royalty but I looked down on the earth and saw it was so poor ever since I left earth it had become so insanely poor and me being eich wanted to share my riches with the earth.

I think this dream may possibly be the confirmation of my desire if the king was Jesus and going to live with him was the rapture and say that the riches I had was not money and gold but rather what I consider to be riches and that being the deep and hidden secrets of his heart and the deepest love with him for him and for all others and say the world being so vastly poor was in fact the world in this time of darkness and being so dry of his love life and hope then it would make sense that i wanted to share my riches with the world and it would make sense if my desire was confirmed.

Now as I said we don't truly know how this is going to turn out but I believe that perhaps if the rapture happens first many can simply stay there with him however I know there are some like me who would ask to go back and serve

 

[Blain]

I apologize for the insanely long post lol

 

[CoooCaw]

well the important thing is that the entire debate is all cleared up now

 

[pottersclay]

Blain...As always it is nice to read what I consider your hearts true answer and I have considered all sides of this issue. As the saints debate over this issue with time line discrepancies and word and symbolism, I prefer to keep to a story line based on the promises of God.
For example we are not appointed to wrath..to say we should endure God's wrath here is calling God a liar.
We rest in the finished work of Jesus Christ...once again if we say we must endure God's wrath is to say Jesus's sacrifice was and is not sufficient to save us.
You say you would want to come back to serve...serve what? The holy spirit is also removed from this earth. If you do works in your own flesh you are back in bondage.
Adam was given a covering. Israel was delivered from Egypt. Noah was preserved in a ark, lot was removed before destruction, 500 years of silence pass and Jesus the promised one arrives telling us to repent saying that the world is condemned. That means God has judged. This same Jesus is our covering, is our deliver, is our ark, is our way of escape before destruction. God judged man, God judge a people, God judged a nation, now God judges the world.
He said to look up for your redemption draws near. No place to run..no problem...Jesus has it covered

 

[pottersclay]

well the important thing is that the entire debate is all cleared up now

Wish it were so...

 

[HisHolly]

This has great points all should consider.. I have said something similar before but never with your attention to so many instances.. great post!

Hi potter As one who was once a hard core pretrib believer I can completely understand where your coming from however we also have other aspects to consider. Now the interesting thing of not having a firm stance on the pre mid or post rapture is that I was able to see what I could not before I was so firm in my belief of the pre trib that i was completely blind to the scriptures that seem to indicate otherwise in fact I remember being in debates and completely ignoring any scripture that opposed my pretrib belief and when I saw all this it made me dive deeper into studying the scriptures about this subject.

Bible prophecy even apart from the prophetic dreams and visions I have received was always a subject I loved to study now from what I have seen there are scriptures to support all three views of the rapture but there is also one more that is less spoken about called pre wrath. In all honesty this makes sense to me while the catching away is in fact a rescue of sorts it's more than that it's a calling a blessing a gift it's not simply to escape what is to come it's a reunion with the groom it's the longing to be with him answered at last.

But as I have seen many see the catching away as simply an escape not just from what is to come but from pain sorrow and lifes hardship in general and while there is nothing wrong with this many without even meaning to put it above simply wanting to be with him and know him to the fullest extent.But Jesus never said we wouldn't see what is to come did he? He also never said we wouldn't go through it either. Think of noah for example yes he was saved from drowning but he still saw all that happened he still felt the harsh waves crash against the boat he still heard the harsh winds.

Also think of this all through out the bible there are so many times when his people would not necessarily be taken away from the hardships but rather would be protected and strengthened in them, when Daniels friends were to be put in the fire they were not taken away from it rather Jesus met them in the fire and protected them when Peter was in the harsh storm he was not taken away from the storm rather was called out to meet Jesus in the midst of the storm and when peter fell Jesus brought him right back up in the time of acts the believers were hardly ever saved from tribulation rather they were empowered to be strong and to shine God's light in it.

Prophecy often times is foreshadowed all through out the bible and like history often times repeats itself, simply because of the pattern I saw I thought it might be possible that we may be called to do the same however nothing is set in stone none of us truly know how this is going to go down no matter how sure we think we are.

Me personally I did not seek to be strong in love and and faith for myself I did not desire to be rich and overflowing if love faith and the light of God for my sake. If I could have it my way I would love to go home for a time to spend time with him to receive the treasures of his heart I have so exhaustively sought after and after a time of being with him I want to come back on earth during this time of blood and darkness so that I share all my treasures in vast abundance in a time when more so than ever in history and ever again his love light and hope will be needed the most.

This has been my desire since the beginning of my faith and I had a dream a while that may in fact be confirmation of my hearts desire. In this dream I recall being with my family when suddenly a king appeared and told me I am royalty and offered me the chance to come and live with him in his kingdom and while I loved my family I chose to live with this king we went into the sky far above even space itself into a realm or dimension that no one could ever hope to reach. in his kingdom I was royalty I wore the finest clothes I was never without and I was rich I finally knew what it felt like to be royalty but I looked down on the earth and saw it was so poor ever since I left earth it had become so insanely poor and me being eich wanted to share my riches with the earth.

I think this dream may possibly be the confirmation of my desire if the king was Jesus and going to live with him was the rapture and say that the riches I had was not money and gold but rather what I consider to be riches and that being the deep and hidden secrets of his heart and the deepest love with him for him and for all others and say the world being so vastly poor was in fact the world in this time of darkness and being so dry of his love life and hope then it would make sense that i wanted to share my riches with the world and it would make sense if my desire was confirmed.

Now as I said we don't truly know how this is going to turn out but I believe that perhaps if the rapture happens first many can simply stay there with him however I know there are some like me who would ask to go back and serve

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello Blain,

But Jesus never said we wouldn't see what is to come did he? He also never said we wouldn't go through it either.

As a matter of scriptural fact, Jesus did say that believers wouldn't go through it.

"Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!" - Rom.5:9

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath." - 1 thes.1:10

"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." - 1 Thes.5:9

"Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you out of the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth." - Rev.3:10

So yeah, Jesus did say that we would not go through His coming wrath. And the reason that believers cannot go through the coming wrath of God, is because Jesus already experienced the wrath that we deserve, satisfying it. If believers were to go through it, it would be like a double payment being made and it would be a dishonor to Christ who already experienced God's wrath for us.

Think of Noah for example yes he was saved from drowning but he still saw all that happened he still felt the harsh waves crash against the boat he still heard the harsh winds.

Regarding the above, God saved Noah through the flood because after the flood, he and his family were to repopulate the earth. That is not the case with those who will be resurrected and caught up. It will be to receive what has been promised, i.e. our resurrected, immortal and glorified bodies. When this unprecedented wrath of God comes upon the earth, there will be no water to float on to escape and no place to hide, seeing that these plagues of wrath are going affect the entire earth. As Jesus said, "it will be a time of great tribulation such as the world has not seen from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again.

As I continue to make known, it is imperative to understand that there is a great difference between the common trials and tribulation which comes at the hands of the world with the powers of darkness orchestrating in the background vs. God's coming wrath. Many attempt to draw a comparison with God's coming wrath to what the 1st century church suffered and what those who have suffered since and are currently suffering. The problem is that they do not recognizes that there is a distinction between those common trials and tribulations opposed to God's coming wrath, which is their error.

Regarding this coming wrath, it will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments the details of which take up a good majority of the book of Revelation. It will be the fulfillment of what was prophesied of by the OT prophets, as well as the apostles as the day of the Lord. Everyone who remains on planet earth will be exposed to it, which is why scripture is continually warning believers to watch and be ready so that day does not close on us like a trap and that because the Lord's appearing to gather his bride is always imminent.

 

[pottersclay]

Hello Blain,



As a matter of scriptural fact, Jesus did say that believers wouldn't go through it.

"Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!" - Rom.5:9

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath." - 1 thes.1:10

"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." - 1 Thes.5:9

"Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you out of the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth." - Rev.3:10

So yeah, Jesus did say that we would not go through His coming wrath. And the reason that believers cannot go through the coming wrath of God, is because Jesus already experienced the wrath that we deserve, satisfying it. If believers were to go through it, it would be like a double payment being made and it would be a dishonor to Christ who already experienced God's wrath for us.



Regarding the above, God saved Noah through the flood because after the flood, he and his family were to repopulate the earth. That is not the case with those who will be resurrected and caught up. It will be to receive what has been promised, i.e. our resurrected, immortal and glorified bodies. When this unprecedented wrath of God comes upon the earth, there will be no water to float on to escape and no place to hide, seeing that these plagues of wrath are going affect the entire earth. As Jesus said, "it will be a time of great tribulation such as the world has not seen from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again.

As I continue to make known, it is imperative to understand that there is a great difference between the common trials and tribulation which comes at the hands of the world with the powers of darkness orchestrating in the background vs. God's coming wrath. Many attempt to draw a comparison with God's coming wrath to what the 1st century church suffered and what those who have suffered since and are currently suffering. The problem is that they do not recognizes that there is a distinction between those common trials and tribulations opposed to God's coming wrath, which is their error.

Regarding this coming wrath, it will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments the details of which take up a good majority of the book of Revelation. It will be the fulfillment of what was prophesied of by the OT prophets, as well as the apostles as the day of the Lord. Everyone who remains on planet earth will be exposed to it, which is why scripture is continually warning believers to watch and be ready so that day does not close on us like a trap and that because the Lord's appearing to gather his bride is always imminent.

As usual my brother well said

 

[dcontroversal]

Hello Blain,



As a matter of scriptural fact, Jesus did say that believers wouldn't go through it.

"Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!" - Rom.5:9

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath." - 1 thes.1:10

"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." - 1 Thes.5:9

"Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you out of the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth." - Rev.3:10

So yeah, Jesus did say that we would not go through His coming wrath. And the reason that believers cannot go through the coming wrath of God, is because Jesus already experienced the wrath that we deserve, satisfying it. If believers were to go through it, it would be like a double payment being made and it would be a dishonor to Christ who already experienced God's wrath for us.



Regarding the above, God saved Noah through the flood because after the flood, he and his family were to repopulate the earth. That is not the case with those who will be resurrected and caught up. It will be to receive what has been promised, i.e. our resurrected, immortal and glorified bodies. When this unprecedented wrath of God comes upon the earth, there will be no water to float on to escape and no place to hide, seeing that these plagues of wrath are going affect the entire earth. As Jesus said, "it will be a time of great tribulation such as the world has not seen from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again.

As I continue to make known, it is imperative to understand that there is a great difference between the common trials and tribulation which comes at the hands of the world with the powers of darkness orchestrating in the background vs. God's coming wrath. Many attempt to draw a comparison with God's coming wrath to what the 1st century church suffered and what those who have suffered since and are currently suffering. The problem is that they do not recognizes that there is a distinction between those common trials and tribulations opposed to God's coming wrath, which is their error.

Regarding this coming wrath, it will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments the details of which take up a good majority of the book of Revelation. It will be the fulfillment of what was prophesied of by the OT prophets, as well as the apostles as the day of the Lord. Everyone who remains on planet earth will be exposed to it, which is why scripture is continually warning believers to watch and be ready so that day does not close on us like a trap and that because the Lord's appearing to gather his bride is always imminent.

Brother can you read a dictionary?

What part of the following do you not understand?

WRATH----SPELLING ORGE--->FIERY INDIGNATION OF GOD NOT ANNOUNCED till the 7th TRUMP
Tribulation---SPELLING THILIPSIS--->PERSECUTION, PRESSURE...THROUGH MUCH TRIBULATION WE MUST ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD

HOW is it that YOU are blind to the fact that they ARE two different words, with two different APPLICATIONS in SCRIPTURE when it comes to the end of the age.....?

 

[samuel23]

No doubt you are the people, and wisdom shall die with you, but I have understanding as well as you, I am not inferior to you, who knows not such things as these?(Job 12:1-2). There are no scriptures to support the idea of a pre-trib rapture, just scriptures that folks have manipulated. People call Rev 4:1 the rapture of the church when it was a voice calling John into Heaven for a revelation of the future. We have folks calling the great tribulation Jesus described as the wrath of God, yet Jesus said it would be a time of great persecution against Christians(would God be persecuting Christians?). In Matt 24 and Mark 13 it is literally written that Jesus said that He would return in the sky with angels and a trumpet to gather the believers from all over the world AFTER the tribulation. Paul said we could not be gathered until AFTER the revealing of the Antichrist. How much more clear can it be? If I tell you the truth why do you not believe?(John 8:46).

 

[pottersclay]

No doubt you are the people, and wisdom shall die with you, but I have understanding as well as you, I am not inferior to you, who knows not such things as these?(Job 12:1-2). There are no scriptures to support the idea of a pre-trib rapture, just scriptures that folks have manipulated. People call Rev 4:1 the rapture of the church when it was a voice calling John into Heaven for a revelation of the future. We have folks calling the great tribulation Jesus described as the wrath of God, yet Jesus said it would be a time of great persecution against Christians(would God be persecuting Christians?). In Matt 24 and Mark 13 it is literally written that Jesus said that He would return in the sky with angels and a trumpet to gather the believers from all over the world AFTER the tribulation. Paul said we could not be gathered until AFTER the revealing of the Antichrist. How much more clear can it be? If I tell you the truth why do you not believe?(John 8:46).

And as usual none of the post trib no trib answered my o.p. questions. Typically avoiding . Sticking to there twist on scripture.
Making the o.p questions as I have by deduction puts there twisted scripture method to the test in which they will fail

 

[dcontroversal]

Adam said eve was bone of his bone flesh of his flesh so I have a question for ya. If you believe that the church (bride) of Christ goes through the tribulation brought on by God's wrath isn't that like beating and crucifing Jesus again?

Also it would be much appreciated if you could point me to the text that shows that it's scriptural or customary for the father of the groom to beat on and kill if necessary the choosen bride of his son.

How is the church to function if the holy spirit is taken out so that the man of sin is revealed.

Revelation 5:9 that new song....who else was redeemed by the blood?

Thank you in advance.......Potter the confused.

a) For 2000 years the saved, saints of God have been being murdered, ostracized, mocked, beaten, ran out of town etc....NO to your first question
b) Question two is retarded IF THEY WILL KILL THE MASTER what will they do to the SERVANTS
c) It does not say that it is the HOLY SPIRIT...another misnomer and erroneous interpretation....
d) It is the 24 elders before the throne singing....what bearing does this have on the snatching away of the saints...ZERO, NOTHING, NADDA

Post 13 was uncalled for, mouthy and ASSumes much......

 

[samuel23]

I will try to answer your initial questions. First, God never pours out His wrath on the church, however, indirectly we all in this life experience some of the judgement of God against sin in the sense that we all suffer in the flesh and die. This is called trouble or tribulation of which,so says the bible, we are all called to experience. Stephen suffered tribulation, king Herod suffered the wrath of God. Jesus said the church would suffer tribulation(trouble) but the ungodly will suffer the wrath of God. Your second question is like the first, also,you are trying to use a metaphor(marriage) to void out a literal statement(Jesus said the church would go through the tribulation). Your third question, the bible does not say that HS is taken out of the world,people have added that to the scripture. Rev 5:9 remember John is being shown the hereafter, the elders AND the four beasts are singing a song of redemption that pertains to the entire human race(redeemed out of every kindred,tongue,people,and race. The elders and the beasts are presenting to God the prayers of the saints that were redeemed from all over the earth(the beasts are not redeemed them selves).

 

[pottersclay]

Adam said eve was bone of his bone flesh of his flesh so I have a question for ya. If you believe that the church (bride) of Christ goes through the tribulation brought on by God's wrath isn't that like beating and crucifing Jesus again?

Also it would be much appreciated if you could point me to the text that shows that it's scriptural or customary for the father of the groom to beat on and kill if necessary the choosen bride of his son.

How is the church to function if the holy spirit is taken out so that the man of sin is revealed.

Revelation 5:9 that new song....who else was redeemed by the blood?

Thank you in advance.......Potter the confused.

a) For 2000 years the saved, saints of God have been being murdered, ostracized, mocked, beaten, ran out of town etc....NO to your first question
b) Question two is retarded IF THEY WILL KILL THE MASTER what will they do to the SERVANTS
c) It does not say that it is the HOLY SPIRIT...another misnomer and erroneous interpretation....
d) It is the 24 elders before the throne singing....what bearing does this have on the snatching away of the saints...ZERO, NOTHING, NADDA

Post 13 was uncalled for, mouthy and ASSumes much......

This my friend tells me how much you do not know. You have made a stance in this issue for the sole purpose to argue.
I do not believe in the ignore button but I do believe that your ignorance is bliss.
Let your post reply be a witness to your understanding....

 

[pottersclay]

I will try to answer your initial questions. First, God never pours out His wrath on the church, however, indirectly we all in this life experience some of the judgement of God against sin in the sense that we all suffer in the flesh and die. This is called trouble or tribulation of which,so says the bible, we are all called to experience. Stephen suffered tribulation, king Herod suffered the wrath of God. Jesus said the church would suffer tribulation(trouble) but the ungodly will suffer the wrath of God. Your second question is like the first, also,you are trying to use a metaphor(marriage) to void out a literal statement(Jesus said the church would go through the tribulation). Your third question, the bible does not say that HS is taken out of the world,people have added that to the scripture. Rev 5:9 remember John is being shown the hereafter, the elders AND the four beasts are singing a song of redemption that pertains to the entire human race(redeemed out of every kindred,tongue,people,and race. The elders and the beasts are presenting to God the prayers of the saints that were redeemed from all over the earth(the beasts are not redeemed them selves).

Thank you for responding. Even though I disagree in a lot here I respect your response as it tells me how to explain my position more and causes me to search for a better expression.
Stevens suffering, our sufferings are indeed tribulation. But that is brought on by the world not by God.
Jesus said in this world you will suffer many tribulations but be of good cheer I have over come the world.
In revelation the tribulation is brought on by God. Removing the holy spirit reveals the man of sin.
God gives deception and power is also given for God's will to be done.
This is not about the suffering for the gospels sake but the start of judgment on a already condemned world.

As for the holy spirit being removed.

[FONT=&quot]5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He[d] who now restrains will do so until He[e]is taken out of the way. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

[/FONT]As for the new song sung..The words are "you have redeemed us" .....not them......us ...these are the saints in heaven after the rapture.
Notice John heard a voice like a trumpet in revelation 4:1 which said come up here? And immediately was in the spirit?
(Vision of rapture).

 

[Blain]

The problem for me potter is that while I wish I could help you more as I know you are wanting to not just discuss these things but to understand them better I may not be able to as I don't have an actual stance on the rapture.

But I will say this I have had countless dreams and visions of the rapture happening many times I saw myself going in it but I was never given a sense of when it was or if there was the tribulation happening or not, on the other hand I have also seen the tribulation as well and in a few of them I was in it I have also seen a glimpse of the wedding and myself in it so perhaps these dreams and visions are clues as to what is going to happen and how but I do not have the understanding to understand it it's as if I was given pieces to a puzzle that I don't how to put together.

But even so even I can still feel a bit of the pre trib belief in me or rather I hope it's true but I have been to damaged by all the false prophets to allow myself to believe it I simply cannot take another blow like that

 

[GaryA]

If you believe that the church (bride) of Christ goes through the tribulation brought on by God's wrath isn't that like beating and crucifing Jesus again?

I do not believe that --- because, 'tribulation' and 'wrath' are two different things.

The [ Great ] Tribulation is not brought on by God's wrath.

( In terms of 'event' and 'timeline', they do not even overlap - much less coincide. )

And, until you pre-trib folks understand this, you will probably not be able to have a meaningful conversation on the subject with someone who is post-trib...

 

[tanakh]

Have I missed something here. We are all one in Christ Jesus if we are saved we are part of the body of Christ. Why is this thread directed at ''No Trib and Post Trib believers?'' What has a person eschatological position to do with whether a person is a Christian ie part of the body or not? Actually I dont believe there is anyone that would dispute the teaching of the Tribulation, Rapture or Resurrection of the Dead it is the timing that is in dispute.