JW, Mormons, and the Catholic Church

[Depleted]

So, again, what I'm gathering from your illustration is that non-trinitarians are going to hell. Does this only include those who outright deny the trinity? E.g., those who study it and conclude it is a false doctrine. Or does it also include those who don't ever take a position on it for whatever reason? E.g., Those who purposefully choose not to take a position, or do not ever have time to study it out to come to a position, are never introduced to the concept, etc.

When? When seems an important question for your other questions.

When I first became a believer, I was also established in the Catholic Church. Did the whole baptism, confession, communion, confirmation, and even became a godmother thing. I was raised in it, thus that's how I thought God was. And then, poof! One night I was in the audience watching Jesus Christ Superstar and asked God to let me know he was as real as the actor playing him on the stage. I woke up the next morning born again. (And to tie this all in, married to Jesus. Although, being raised Catholic that puts me at odds with what I was taught that meant growing up. lol)

I really was born again. That doesn't mean I knew Jesus like I do today. Never dawned on me to question baptizing babies, confession, communion, or confirmation for quite some time. (Godmother promises hit immediately, since I am my younger brother's godmother and our Mom was dying when I first got zapped by God.)

Was I not saved because I didn't change my mind on those things in a year? Two years? 5? 10? When is an important question. It's 44 years later, and I still don't know what I should think about baby baptism for sure.

BUT, that stuff really isn't important to salvation. Trinity is. It is an important doctrine to hold. Not to believe in the Trinity is not to believe in the Triune God. The God of the Bible. BUT (sorry, I like lots of "buts" lol), WHEN must one learn this about God?

Is that what you're asking? Definitely before death. (I don't see a way out of it, if you have enough time to study the Bible before you die. If you never learn about it, that's a different thing.) Outside of that, it really gets to the point of when are you going to study God to figure that one out? There was a guy on here a while ago from Africa who said he had never heard of the Trinity for the first two years he was a believer. Well, gee whiz! I hadn't heard of anything wrong with baby baptism until about 15 years ago, so I went with what I knew. God doesn't cross us off because we never knew some stuff. If that were true, we're back to no one is saved.

BUT he did hear. And then he had to learn it. And then he had to decide if he believed it. It all depends on our root structure. I have plants that don't need deep roots, but survive for years. (Decades, if you count my Prickly Pear Cacti.) So that whole thing about planting on rocky soil works for me. Easier to be planted in deep soil, but rocky is survivable sometimes. He didn't know, so God didn't count that against him. If he did know, didn't like that God, so went off to find one he does like, yeah! Seriously! A problem!

So, if you're asking me for a timetable on when to learn God is triune, got none. If you're asking if those who claim they are born again, but have studied the trinity and disagree? Yeah. They were never born again. God judges us on our talents. If we don't ever get that talent, he doesn't hold it against us. But he does not save people into believing in a false god.

 

[EvanWood]

"He describes this "complex unity" as YHWH being able to "sit enthroned in heaven, filling the universe with His presence, infinite and uncontainable in His majesty, and yet at one and the same time able manifest His glory among us in the Temple (when it was around), in theophany form to various people in history (Abraham, Moses, etc.), and in the tent of a human body (Yeshua-Jesus)"

I love this example!

 

[MacBestus]

Personally i would rather let the entite debate go away as i honestly feel it to be a waste of time.

But I will try and nutshell it.
Trinity
Father Son Ruach all the same. Think of it as the same being in three uniforms.

Individual Deity. Seperate beings distinct and apart. A literal Father and son and spirit. Each with their own seperate minds and substance.

There are many complex explanations to make one or the other of them make sense or even combine them.

This in my opinion is a waste of time as it only divides us.

In practice nothing changes in your faith or exercise of faith based on your adherence to either of these dogmas. And these both are dogmas.

Think of it like this. I dont care if you wear brown pants or black pants as long as you are wearing pants.

Far to much of my life has been tied up in this silly argument. Far to many brothers in Messiah have literally killed each over over it.

Ask yourself what changes either way. Other than saying we are monotheistic. Which is all it was ever about.

Ask yourself why no one cared (except for Tertullians ponderings) for 400 years. And why all of a sudden it mattered so much when Universalism first showed up as the Catholic faith.


There is not enough information in scripture on this to even make it a thing.

It is just a tool of divisiveness if treated as anything other than an intellectual discourse. And should not ever be used to judge each other.

 

[Dan_473]

Hi MacBestus

if there are two beings who are separate, distinct, and apart, and they are both divine, is that still monotheism?

 

[EvanWood]

Call me crazy but I don't think good really expects us to understand Him fully in this life. I agree with Mac in that we should not devide over a subject such as this. I would like to ask if the subject is really that clear in scripture or do you have to make a deep study to truly understand? If it was such an important issue don't you think it would be clearer in scripture? Pray to God and listen for His answer.

 

[bluto]

Personally i would rather let the entite debate go away as i honestly feel it to be a waste of time.

But I will try and nutshell it.
Trinity
Father Son Ruach all the same. Think of it as the same being in three uniforms.

Individual Deity. Seperate beings distinct and apart. A literal Father and son and spirit. Each with their own seperate minds and substance.

There are many complex explanations to make one or the other of them make sense or even combine them.

This in my opinion is a waste of time as it only divides us.

In practice nothing changes in your faith or exercise of faith based on your adherence to either of these dogmas. And these both are dogmas.

Think of it like this. I dont care if you wear brown pants or black pants as long as you are wearing pants.

Far to much of my life has been tied up in this silly argument. Far to many brothers in Messiah have literally killed each over over it.

Ask yourself what changes either way. Other than saying we are monotheistic. Which is all it was ever about.

Ask yourself why no one cared (except for Tertullians ponderings) for 400 years. And why all of a sudden it mattered so much when Universalism first showed up as the Catholic faith.


There is not enough information in scripture on this to even make it a thing.

It is just a tool of divisiveness if treated as anything other than an intellectual discourse. And should not ever be used to judge each other.

So mac, you can wish this debate will go away until the cows come home but it is not going away. If the Trinity doctrine bothers you so much don't post about it.

Now, what you said here (at least a part of it) is in error and unbiblical. "Individual Deity. Seperate beings distinct and apart. A literal Father and son and spirit. Each with their own seperate minds and substance." First the positive in that there is a literal Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The negative is the fact that the persons of the Trinity DO NOT have a separate substance, they are of the same substance.

Remember we talked about the Son being the literal Son of God the Father. This means that the Son has the same nature as the Father. You can prove me wrong by giving one example of a son that does not share the same nature as its father. You have the same nature as your father which would be "human." You are a distinct person from your father and mother for that matter and yet you still have their nature.

This is why in one of my post I said there was a reason why Jesus referred to Himself as the "Son of Man" and as the "Son of God." Jesus has two natures one from His Fathers side which is deity and one from His mother's side which is human. Plus the fact that there is a difference in the defintion of the words, "separate" and "distinct." They do not mean the same thing. This is why dan in his post to you said,
"if there are two beings who are separate, distinct, and apart, and they are both divine, is that still monotheism?" When you use the word "separate" along with the word "beings" it implies polytheism, and yes this is a big deal that has to be dealt with.

In short, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are one essence or nature, one deity in three hypostases or persons. I have to go now but I will deal with the reason why this issue was brought up some three or four hundred years later.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Depleted]

Call me crazy but I don't think good really expects us to understand Him fully in this life. I agree with Mac in that we should not devide over a subject such as this. I would like to ask if the subject is really that clear in scripture or do you have to make a deep study to truly understand? If it was such an important issue don't you think it would be clearer in scripture? Pray to God and listen for His answer.

It is clear in scripture. Jesus was baptized. The Holy Spirit descended. The Father stated the big one, "This is my son, whom I am well pleased." Add that to Jesus saying, "Before Abraham, I AM." I AM that I AM = Jehovah. He out and out said he was THE Jehovah.

So, is the Holy Spirit not God? Is the Father not God? Is Jesus not God? If you answer Yes to any of those three questions, then you got the wrong god.

"I AM." Singularly first person pronoun. God is one. He's not three.

Beyond that, nope. I don't get the fullness of the trinity. But I get God is triune.

 

[EvanWood]

It is clear in scripture. Jesus was baptized. The Holy Spirit descended. The Father stated the big one, "This is my son, whom I am well pleased." Add that to Jesus saying, "Before Abraham, I AM." I AM that I AM = Jehovah. He out and out said he was THE Jehovah.

So, is the Holy Spirit not God? Is the Father not God? Is Jesus not God? If you answer Yes to any of those three questions, then you got the wrong god.

"I AM." Singularly first person pronoun. God is one. He's not three.

Beyond that, nope. I don't get the fullness of the trinity. But I get God is triune.

Might seem clear to you because that's what was taught to you. But the baptism shows all three separate. So scripture could have read "I saw God descending on God in the form of a dove, and God said this is myself in whom I am well pleased." And what if Jesus' reference in "Before Abraham was I am" is actually speaking of the fact that He is the lamb slain before the foundation of the world? While Jesus was hanging on the cross why would He ask the Father to forgive them or ask God why He has forsaking Him? When speaking of the Spirit why did he say that the Father will send the Spirit in the Son's name?

Further more if you look into other statements it seems to muddy it up a bit more. Like John 10:30-36 where Jesus said that those to whom the word of God came were called gods. And when you take into account that God says He will not give His glory to another in Isaiah 48:11 yet in John 17:22 Jesus prays to the Father we who believe in Him may be one as Jesus and the Father are one and he says He shares His glory with us. Not to mention that in revelation when there is none worthy to loose the seals John saw Jesus (Lion/Lamb) in the midst of the throne, beast, elders. He came and took the book out of the hand of Him that sat upon the throne.

I'm not denying the Trinity, but I don't think it's as clear as you try to make it seem.

 

[oldethennew]

Hi MacBestus

if there are two beings who are separate, distinct, and apart, and they are both divine, is that still monotheism?

===============================================

NO,
scripture says, ' I and My Father are ONE'...the most important Commandment is,
'Hear, O, Isreal, The Lord our God, The Lord is ONE, and thou shall love....'

 

[Dan_473]

===============================================

NO,
scripture says, ' I and My Father are ONE'...the most important Commandment is,
'Hear, O, Isreal, The Lord our God, The Lord is ONE, and thou shall love....'

yes, I agree

monotheism means just one being that's truly a god

(as opposed to a car, which becomes a god when someone worships it)

 

[bluto]

Ok sparty, we have a big problem? The problem is what you stated, "On individual deity: I have not read anything by theologians or scholars on the subject, but here is what comes to my mind when I think about it: There is only one YHWH. Messiah is a separate divine entity, similar to how angels are divine and separate from YHWH, but Messiah has the special role unique to only Him of being the Messiah of the world, and YHWH has handed over to Him authority for judgment and the like (everything the Scriptures say He has authority over). He is YHWH's Son but He is not YHWH Himself."

Yes, Jesus Christ is YHWH Himself. It is true that God the Father gave His Son authority but it is because God became a man in the person of Jesus Christ. This is according to Philippians 2:5-8. "Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, vs6, who, ALTHOUGH He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, vs7, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. vs8, And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself, by becoming obedient to the point of death on the cross."

So what does all this mean? Remember I told to pay attention to words and here's a good example of what I mean. Vs6 says, who ALTHOUGH He existed in the form of God." That word "although" means, "In spite of the fact that Jesus Christ always existed as God He emptied Himself (which means as God He forego His innate divinity and powers associated with that divinity) and became a man. Jesus Christ "DID NOT" become not God, He became a man just like the rest of the verses state.

You also have John 1:1-14 explaing that Jesus Christ was not only "with" God but He is God. Now, in my last post to mac I stated that a son has the same nature as his father, therefore since Jesus Christ is the one and only Son of God He has His
Father's nature which is Deity. If you want I can supply an abundance of more proof that Jesus Christ is "THE" God in Scripture.

You also brought up Michael Brown who I really like and is a very sound teacher. Did you read what he actually wrote when you posted what he said here: "On the trinity: I like the way Dr. Michael L. Brown describes it: YHWH is "complex in His unity." He uses this to defend against the Jewish objection to the Messiah being YHWH the Son as an idolatrous belief. He describes this "complex unity" as YHWH being able to "sit enthroned in heaven, filling the universe with His presence, infinite and uncontainable in His majesty, and yet at one and the same time able manifest His glory among us in the Temple (when it was around), in theophany form to various people in history (Abraham, Moses, etc.), and in the tent of a human body (Yeshua-Jesus)." I personally don't believe any of that to be beyond the scope of YHWH's ability."

Please take note of the last couple of sentences when he talks about a "theophany" which is an appearance of God. Who do you think appeared to Abraham, Hagar, Jacob, Moses and others in the Old Testament? It was the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ who is first described as the angel of the Lord at Gensesis 16:7. Please read the rest of the chapter. Who do you think appeared to Moses in the burning bush at Exodus 3? Please read that one as well.

You should know I am not trying to confuse you and I'll bet you feel confused but believe me, everything will fall into place, it just takes time and study. Now, regarding your very last paragraph?

"I think there are verses that can be construed either way and difficult verses that challenge each position. As I already said, I am personally trinitarian and am more comfortable with the idea that YHWH Himself takes on human form to save us Himself. But I also don't hold this as a salvation litmus test and will let YHWH (or more accurately Yeshua-Jesus in the authority handed over to Him?) judge the hearts of men and women."

I'm sure you have heard the phrase, "Well that's your interpretation" with the assumption that your interpretation is equally as valid as mine, even though they may contradict each other. The fact of the matter is the Scriptures do not contradict each other. When we disagree, your view may be correct; mine may not be, in fact we both could be wrong. But we both cannot be right at the same time in the same place. What's my point? Even though there may be thousands of applications of any given text, BUT THERE IS ONLY ONE CORRECT MEANING.

When the Bible says, "Jesus wept" it means exactly that. Or when Thomas declared to Jesus Christ Himself that He/Jesus was his Lord and God that is what it means. It does not mean as unitarians and other say the Thomas was referring to God the Father when he made that declaration. In closing I have one question for you? You talked about being in the Hebrew Roots movement, what do they have to offer thats better than Jesus Christ? Did not the Apostle Paul say at Colossians 2:10, "and in Him you have been made COMPLETE, and He is the head of all rule and authority." I can tell your searching for something and you don't realize that Jesus Christ is the end of the search. By all means any questions I will be happy to address them.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[posthuman]

" . . To those who are the called,
​

beloved in God the Father,
and kept for Jesus Christ . . . "


​

 

[williamjordan]

So is it faith in Jesus + correct doctrine that saves us?

Let me ask you this question. Why would the apostles, and other figures during the first few centuries of the early church period spend their time traveling, writing, and correcting heresy if all one had to do was to have faith in Jesus?

Might I would suggest that if all one needs to do is believe that Jesus is, in some round-a-bout sense, the "Son of God" with disregard of the remainder of things the NT has to say about Him then the authors of the NT wasted their time combating many myths/untruths about Jesus. What would have been the point for Paul, or any other to write entire letters which entail so much detail about the person and being of Jesus Christ, if all that one needs to believe is that He is the "Son of God"?

One must believe that Jesus is the Son of God to the very extent that the Apostles also believed and whom they discuss in so much detail throughout the NT, or else your view of Jesus as the "Son of God" is distorted.

Do you have the right Jesus?

 

[williamjordan]

Might seem clear to you because that's what was taught to you. But the baptism shows all three separate. So scripture could have read "I saw God descending on God in the form of a dove, and God said this is myself in whom I am well pleased." And what if Jesus' reference in "Before Abraham was I am" is actually speaking of the fact that He is the lamb slain before the foundation of the world? While Jesus was hanging on the cross why would He ask the Father to forgive them or ask God why He has forsaking Him? When speaking of the Spirit why did he say that the Father will send the Spirit in the Son's name?

Further more if you look into other statements it seems to muddy it up a bit more. Like John 10:30-36 where Jesus said that those to whom the word of God came were called gods. And when you take into account that God says He will not give His glory to another in Isaiah 48:11 yet in John 17:22 Jesus prays to the Father we who believe in Him may be one as Jesus and the Father are one and he says He shares His glory with us. Not to mention that in revelation when there is none worthy to loose the seals John saw Jesus (Lion/Lamb) in the midst of the throne, beast, elders. He came and took the book out of the hand of Him that sat upon the throne.

I'm not denying the Trinity, but I don't think it's as clear as you try to make it seem.

For starters, judging from this post, I'm almost certain that your view of Trinitarianism is skewed.

The hidden presupposition of your post makes the mistake of conflating Trinitarianism with Modalism (or Sabellianism), which is contradictory in and of itself, because Modalism is a form of Unitarianism. Trinitarianism and Unitarianism are polar opposites.

It's of vital significance to understand that there are multiple forms of Unitarianism. One of the heresies of the Early Church was a form of Unitarianism known as Sabellianism, which didn't deny that Jesus was God, but rather, argued that it was the Father who took on flesh, and was incarnated in the person we know as Jesus. There are multiple Unitarian groups, all with significantly different views of Christ, but the primary belief that they each share is that God is one sole individual. In this particular scenario, it's important to understand what distinguishes Trinitarianism from Sabellianism/Modalism.

The primary feature that distinguishes Trinitarianism from Modalism is simply this: the pre-existence of Jesus, the Son of God. Modalism adheres that prior to the incarnation Jesus pre-existed as the Father, while Trinitarianism teaches that Jesus pre-existed eternally alongside the Father.

 

[EvanWood]

For starters, judging from this post, I'm almost certain that your view of Trinitarianism is skewed.

The hidden presupposition of your post makes the mistake of conflating Trinitarianism with Modalism (or Sabellianism), which is contradictory in and of itself, because Modalism is a form of Unitarianism. Trinitarianism and Unitarianism are polar opposites.

It's of vital significance to understand that there are multiple forms of Unitarianism. One of the heresies of the Early Church was a form of Unitarianism known as Sabellianism, which didn't deny that Jesus was God, but rather, argued that it was the Father who took on flesh, and was incarnated in the person we know as Jesus. There are multiple Unitarian groups, all with significantly different views of Christ, but the primary belief that they each share is that God is one sole individual. In this particular scenario, it's important to understand what distinguishes Trinitarianism from Sabellianism/Modalism.

The primary feature that distinguishes Trinitarianism from Modalism is simply this: the pre-existence of Jesus, the Son of God. Modalism adheres that prior to the incarnation Jesus pre-existed as the Father, while Trinitarianism teaches that Jesus pre-existed eternally alongside the Father.

I believe Jesus pre-existed eternally with the father. I believe they are separate yet one. It's hard to fully understand just as Jesus being God yet human. I have just been giving the opposition in these discussions to show how people can believe in Jesus and the Bible as the true word of God and still not be completely sold on the Trinity.

You show me some scripture in the writings of the new testament on the subject of the Trinity. They confronted many false teachings but I don't remember any of them explaining the Trinity. It takes a deeper study to find the answer. I would like for some one to provide irrefutable proof of the Trinity.

I have done long drawn out studies and have prayed long and hard. I didn't want to be wrong if it was such an important issue. Finally one day as I was praying and asking "Lord which is right? Are You all one, are You separate? Is it Trinity or three separate persons?" The the Lord said to me "I don't care which a person believes, and if I don't care, neither should you. It has become an issue for My children to devide over." Some may think I'm crazy to believe the Lord speaks to me, but I believe He does at times. I still have dug deep though studying to show myself approved. I like to be objective on a study like this though. I try to forget everything I have been taught and go strictly off what the Bible says. I have been saying I will post why I do believe in the Trinity but I haven't yet. I guess that will be my next post.

 

[DiscipleDave]

I can somewhat understand where your coming from Evan. It does make one wonder if doctrine is the deciding factor if one is saved or not even if their hearts are for God.

What Saves a person is believing in the Son of God AND Loving One another, whoever (regardless of race, creed, religion, denomination, or any other kind of classification) is accepted by Him.
Catholics believe false doctrines
Mormons believe false doctrines
JW believe false doctrines
Protestants believe false doctrines.

Those who believe in Jesus Christ AND Love One Another, as He commanded. is accepted by Him.

I mean I have talked with both Catholics and Mormons some of them of course were the normal stereo type you hear Christians talk about all the time but some seemed to be of a different sort.

i too have been shown that JW, Catholics, and Mormons, in some cases have a strong love for Jesus Christ.

Some may see me as defending these types of believers but I am not I am simply giving a different perspective to think about.

Nothing wrong with defending brothers and sisters that believe in the Lord Jesus Christ

True enough a lot of the traditions of theirs vastly oppose ours and God's but I wonder if we are all talk when we so often say that God looks to the heart? what if while following traditions that were molded into them some of these so called heretics actually have a deep and personal love with God? would this be enough to say they are saved or does the doctrine they teach and follow discount them?

As you say. God sees the heart of a person. A person either has a heart full of Love or have a selfish heart. There are many here who claim to be Saved, yet believe false doctrines. Its what is in a persons heart that reveals who is in their heart. You will know what is in a persons heart by their fruits, what they DO. If they are Loving One Another, they have the fruits of Jesus living in them, if they NOT Loving One Another, but think selfishly continually, they have darkness inside of them, and how great is that darkness? Even a little bit of darkness will fester and grow even darker, unless that person seeks Christ's Strength and power to overcome that darkness. All flesh loves darkness. But woe to that flesh who claims to be in the light, yet they live in darkness, they think they see, but are blind even now. They think they are Heaven bound, yet a pit awaits them. .. .. If you know there is darkness in you, that is what you need to be getting rid of in your life. Do it now, before it is to late to do it at all.

I have met a few Catholics even who have shown me more fruits of the spirit than a lot of Christians I have met and these fruits are not the kind that can be faked for fake fruits cannot move and stir a persons heart towards God. But again I could be wrong and be speaking out of ignorance, I don't know how to judge a person as saved from the doctrine they follow I only know by their hearts.

You will know them by their fruits, for what is in their hearts will be revealed through their actions, their deeds.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[EvanWood]

My most convincing scripture for the Trinity for are as follows: First in Isaiah 44:6 there is the title for God "the first and the last" you can see this clearly applied to Jesus in Revelation 1:10-17. Then Isaiah 45:21-24 God says every knee shall bow and every tongue confess. This is refenced in Phillipines 2:10,11 that all will bow to Jesus. I would also like to point out that in both Isaiah 44:6 and 45:21-24 that "beside Me the is no God" Then there is Isaiah 9:6 that we'll known scripture about the birth of Christ in which Jesus is referred to as "the mighty God and everlasting Father" then John 20:28 When Thomas called Him God, He should have corrected Thomas if it were not true. So if Jesus is God and the is absolutely only one God (Deuteronomy 6:4) and no other gods, than Jesus and the Father and the Holy Spirit must all be one.

Genesis 1:1 and John 1:2,3 show all 3 at work in creation, Father Spirit Son. Jesus is the image of the invisible God, the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world, in whom dwells the fullness of the Godhead bodily. (Colossians 1:15-19, Colossians 2:9, Revelation 13:8)

This is the short version lol, but I'm tired. If I need to expand on this I will another day

 

[bluto]

I believe Jesus pre-existed eternally with the father. I believe they are separate yet one. It's hard to fully understand just as Jesus being God yet human. I have just been giving the opposition in these discussions to show how people can believe in Jesus and the Bible as the true word of God and still not be completely sold on the Trinity.

You show me some scripture in the writings of the new testament on the subject of the Trinity. They confronted many false teachings but I don't remember any of them explaining the Trinity. It takes a deeper study to find the answer. I would like for some one to provide irrefutable proof of the Trinity.

I have done long drawn out studies and have prayed long and hard. I didn't want to be wrong if it was such an important issue. Finally one day as I was praying and asking "Lord which is right? Are You all one, are You separate? Is it Trinity or three separate persons?" The the Lord said to me "I don't care which a person believes, and if I don't care, neither should you. It has become an issue for My children to devide over." Some may think I'm crazy to believe the Lord speaks to me, but I believe He does at times. I still have dug deep though studying to show myself approved. I like to be objective on a study like this though. I try to forget everything I have been taught and go strictly off what the Bible says. I have been saying I will post why I do believe in the Trinity but I haven't yet. I guess that will be my next post.

Just so you know evan, I would love to address your post but I'm going to defer to william since you are addressing him. I do one to make a couple of comments. Number 1 is what you said here: "Finally one day as I was praying and asking "Lord which is right? Are You all one, are You separate? Is it Trinity or three separate persons?" The the Lord said to me "I don't care which a person believes, and if I don't care, neither should you."

This reminds me of what joseph smith said (The founder of Mormonism) in 1828. I think he was in his teen years. He said he was praying and God the Father appeard to him and so did Jesus Christ at the foot of his bed. He ask them what church should he join? The answer he was give was not to join any of them because they are all corrupt.

Now, the first problem with this is the fact that God the Father cannot be seen even according to Jesus Christ Himself at Johm 5:37 and at John 6:46. The second problem and more importantly is the fact that smith ask the wrong question? Joining a church does not save you. You have to be joined to Jesus Christ as your Savior, not the church.

Lastly, and this is my second question you said, "I would like for some one to provide irrefutable proof of the Trinity." Well, what kind of proof would you accept? I can give you the Biblical proof but like I said I will defer to william who I know he knows what he's talking about. PS: evan, you just gave excellent proof to your own question? So what gives?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Magenta]

I believe Jesus pre-existed eternally with the father. I believe they are separate yet one. It's hard to fully understand just as Jesus being God yet human. I have just been giving the opposition in these discussions to show how people can believe in Jesus and the Bible as the true word of God and still not be completely sold on the Trinity.

You show me some scripture in the writings of the new testament on the subject of the Trinity. They confronted many false teachings but I don't remember any of them explaining the Trinity. It takes a deeper study to find the answer. I would like for some one to provide irrefutable proof of the Trinity.

I have done long drawn out studies and have prayed long and hard. I didn't want to be wrong if it was such an important issue. Finally one day as I was praying and asking "Lord which is right? Are You all one, are You separate? Is it Trinity or three separate persons?" The the Lord said to me "I don't care which a person believes, and if I don't care, neither should you. It has become an issue for My children to devide over." Some may think I'm crazy to believe the Lord speaks to me, but I believe He does at times. I still have dug deep though studying to show myself approved. I like to be objective on a study like this though. I try to forget everything I have been taught and go strictly off what the Bible says. I have been saying I will post why I do believe in the Trinity but I haven't yet. I guess that will be my next post.

In John chapter eight Jesus expounds upon Who He is, claiming He is the I AM, which the religious leaders wanted to stone Him for blasphemy over (since He was equating Himself with God), that He came from heaven, and He says He has said Who He is all along to those who question Him, and that if they do not believe "that I am He," they will die in their sins. This makes believing that Jesus is God a salvation issue. Also, if the Jesus you have talking to you contradicts what He has said in Scripture, do you think you should believe that over what is written?

 

[williamjordan]

I believe Jesus pre-existed eternally with the father. I believe they are separate yet one. It's hard to fully understand just as Jesus being God yet human. I have just been giving the opposition in these discussions to show how people can believe in Jesus and the Bible as the true word of God and still not be completely sold on the Trinity.

You show me some scripture in the writings of the new testament on the subject of the Trinity. They confronted many false teachings but I don't remember any of them explaining the Trinity. It takes a deeper study to find the answer. I would like for some one to provide irrefutable proof of the Trinity.

I have done long drawn out studies and have prayed long and hard. I didn't want to be wrong if it was such an important issue. Finally one day as I was praying and asking "Lord which is right? Are You all one, are You separate? Is it Trinity or three separate persons?" The the Lord said to me "I don't care which a person believes, and if I don't care, neither should you. It has become an issue for My children to devide over." Some may think I'm crazy to believe the Lord speaks to me, but I believe He does at times. I still have dug deep though studying to show myself approved. I like to be objective on a study like this though. I try to forget everything I have been taught and go strictly off what the Bible says. I have been saying I will post why I do believe in the Trinity but I haven't yet. I guess that will be my next post.

I too have delved into the subject quite a lot. For approximately 10 years this has been the primary focus of my studies, so you can imagine that in that span of time I have come across probably every argument there is out there against the pro-Trinitarian position, or at the very least, the pro-Divinity of Jesus proposition. In fact, if I were a betting man, I’d say that in 90-95% of instances, I understand the arguments from the opposing side better than the ones actually making the argument. Up until several years ago, I spoke with Jehovah’s Witnesses on a regular basis through multiple facets.

In order for me to discuss with you texts that are the most compelling, I think a proper understanding of our positions should be in place. You stated that you asked in prayer, “Are You all one, are You separate? Is it Trinity or three separate persons?” But it seems that this question is really quite vague. Perhaps you could elaborate on what you were asking exactly. Your question is phrased in such a way that anyone reading it would think that you are mistaking Trinitarianism for Unitarianism, or vice versa. You make it seem that Trinitarians believe that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one person. In fact, in an earlier post, it seemed that you were making that same error as you posted texts that spoke of Jesus as being distinct from the Father.

In order to discuss an issue, we both must understand each others positions. However, I question if you accurately understand even the position you claim to hold.