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Thread: Not By Works

  1. #2061
    Senior Member dcontroversal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by JIMBO43 View Post
    So your saying salvation is something you put on your self ? isnt something That God puts on ????????
    It seems obvious that you do not understand Ephesians 6 and the whole armor of God........and the double emphasis upon taking it and putting it on...!

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    The none logic of faith is if you follow to know Christ is just accepting Him like a name,
    or a prize in a raffle, lottery, is absurd. You do not get married like this, and this is more
    profound.

    The idea I am evil for believing anything is also totally wrong. God does not care what
    you believe, he cares why you believe and how you behave as a result.

    Without being in communion with Him we are doomed. Abide in the vine or die.
    Behaviour shows where we are, which should drive us to repentance, sorrow and
    Christ. But these realities are hard to find, so always the question is were are we.

    Most people have zero care for God until there lives fall apart. So it is hard to bring
    reality to bare when things are sweet. Worse still when people of faith deny the evil of sin.
    I share "Jesus Christ and him crucified" 1 cor 2:2
    "He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 cor 15:57

    The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
    Nice try, but no ceeeegar.......

    try again....how about this one......

    NOT by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy has he SAVED US...

    A. Salvation is not based upon works
    B. It is based upon MERCY
    C. It is in past tense-->HAS SAVED US
    Titus 3:5 He saved us not by works of righteousness which we had done, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration, and by the renewing of the Holy Ghost,

    Apostle Paul refers to the works of the law when he speaks of WORKS of righteousness done by men against righteousness through Faith(Ref romans 12:1-10, galatians ch.3). It is God who works in us(rom 8:28, phil 2:13) the GOOD WORKS, for there is no one good (mat 19:17,rom 3:23) but God. Throw away the GOOD WORKS & you throw away God.

    A man cannot do anything good without the Holy Spirit in him. He couldn’t have faith without hearing the Word of Truth that brings salvation(eph 1:13, rom 10:17).

    Works without faith is sin (rom 14:23)

    Faith without works is dead (james 2:12-26)

    Faith without love is nothing (1cor 13:2)

    Faith without hope is not faith & has no hope at all (heb 11:1, rom 8:24)

    Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith which worketh by love.

    Therefore, men are saved according to God’s grace & mercy(eph 2:8-10, titus 3:5) through faith that worketh in love.(gal 5:6)

    1 Timothy 4:16 Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will SAVE both YOURSELF and your HEARERS.
    PeterJens likes this.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Seohce View Post
    Titus 3:5 He saved us not by works of righteousness which we had done, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration, and by the renewing of the Holy Ghost,

    Apostle Paul refers to the works of the law when he speaks of WORKS of righteousness done by men against righteousness through Faith(Ref romans 12:1-10, galatians ch.3). It is God who works in us(rom 8:28, phil 2:13) the GOOD WORKS, for there is no one good (mat 19:17,rom 3:23) but God. Throw away the GOOD WORKS & you throw away God.

    A man cannot do anything good without the Holy Spirit in him. He couldn’t have faith without hearing the Word of Truth that brings salvation(eph 1:13, rom 10:17).

    Works without faith is sin (rom 14:23)

    Faith without works is dead (james 2:12-26)

    Faith without love is nothing (1cor 13:2)

    Faith without hope is not faith & has no hope at all (heb 11:1, rom 8:24)

    Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith which worketh by love.

    Therefore, men are saved according to God’s grace & mercy(eph 2:8-10, titus 3:5) through faith that worketh in love.(gal 5:6)

    1 Timothy 4:16 Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will SAVE both YOURSELF and your HEARERS.
    Works are works are works........salvation is by faith through grace....

    faith plus works = false gospel, no power, double cursed<-----Galatians 1,3

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Jesus has always been about the way.

    Before followers were called christians they were people of the way.

    It has always been about communion and the walk. Without the walk
    nothing has value. We learn and grow walking together yoked pulling in unison,
    a child of God with the Son of God.
    I share "Jesus Christ and him crucified" 1 cor 2:2
    "He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 cor 15:57

    The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    I found the thread really controversial with more than 100 pages. The general observation that was brought out has something to do with SALVATION and the works of righteousness if has something to do with SALVATION. It has been brought out that Titus 3:5 as the basis of this proposition. Here is my observation:

    1. On the many the posts, many agreed that one cannot earn SALVATION for Salvation is by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9).
    2. Contention now held are obvious:
    A. Some argued faith + works = SALVATION.
    B. Some argued historical belief in the message = SALVATION.

    I asked does our righteous works have ZERO to do with our SALVATION?

    Let’s pause, let’s think if the proposition is correct.

    I would definitely agree that “It is by grace through faith and that not of yourselves” so I am saved by grace through faith. Nothing else and nothing more that is needed to add from it. But is it really righteous works have ZERO to do with the Salvation we have? That’s different, righteous works has still have something to do with our SALVATION. They are actually the very proof that we are saved. In fact, Titus 3:1 stated that saved are “…to be ready to every good work.” The Bible is plain in Titus 3:5, he saved us not by our works of righteousness, however WORKS is a proof of our faith in Him for “We are his workmanships created in Christ Jesus unto good works” Eph. 2:10 Paul says to the Thessalonians “ Remember without ceasing your work of faith” 1 Thes. 1:3 So good works still plays important with the SALVATION we possessed by Fatih. Thus the proposition that righteous works have ZERO to do with SALVATION is indeed controversial and my analysis is that there is a basis of strong arguments against even those who favors OSAS.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Seohce View Post
    Titus 3:5 He saved us not by works of righteousness which we had done, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration, and by the renewing of the Holy Ghost,

    Apostle Paul refers to the works of the law when he speaks of WORKS of righteousness done by men against righteousness through Faith(Ref romans 12:1-10, galatians ch.3). It is God who works in us(rom 8:28, phil 2:13) the GOOD WORKS, for there is no one good (mat 19:17,rom 3:23) but God. Throw away the GOOD WORKS & you throw away God.

    A man cannot do anything good without the Holy Spirit in him. He couldn’t have faith without hearing the Word of Truth that brings salvation(eph 1:13, rom 10:17).

    Works without faith is sin (rom 14:23)

    Faith without works is dead (james 2:12-26)

    Faith without love is nothing (1cor 13:2)

    Faith without hope is not faith & has no hope at all (heb 11:1, rom 8:24)

    Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith which worketh by love.

    Therefore, men are saved according to God’s grace & mercy(eph 2:8-10, titus 3:5) through faith that worketh in love.(gal 5:6)

    1 Timothy 4:16 Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will SAVE both YOURSELF and your HEARERS.
    Hi Kabayan,

    Is the saving of yourselves and the hearers refers to the Spiritual SALVATION(Salvation of the souls) or simply it concerns the physical salvation?

    Thanks

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
    Works are works are works........salvation is by faith through grace....

    faith plus works = false gospel, no power, double cursed<-----Galatians 1,3
    I feel sorry for the mentally retarded/disabled people, the children who died young due to sickness, mishaps or accidents the good people who are not under law but do the things of the law, who have no knowledge or understanding that they need to have faith to be saved and even worst is that the God of mercy, grace & justice can’t do anything to save them because it will compromise your very pure & unquestionable doctrine. May God forgive you for your deception & for blaspheming the Holy Spirit of God.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Seohce View Post
    I feel sorry for the mentally retarded/disabled people, the children who died young due to sickness, mishaps or accidents the good people who are not under law but do the things of the law, who have no knowledge or understanding that they need to have faith to be saved and even worst is that the God of mercy, grace & justice can’t do anything to save them because it will compromise your very pure & unquestionable doctrine. May God forgive you for your deception & for blaspheming the Holy Spirit of God.
    Hi,

    Have you considered that the mentally retarded done good?
    Those children who died young due to sickness etc. have done good?
    Or those babies who have no knowledge or understanding done any good deeds?
    Are you saying they will not be saved?

    Is this not sound SAFE and not SAVED?

    Thanks
    dcontroversal likes this.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by fredoheaven View Post
    Hi Kabayan,

    Is the saving of yourselves and the hearers refers to the Spiritual SALVATION(Salvation of the souls) or simply it concerns the physical salvation?

    Thanks
    If we believe that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Word(john 1:1-3 & 14), the life- giving Spirit(1 cor 15:45, john 6:63), the Lord & Savior of His body, the Church( eph 5:23, col 1:18,phil 3:20, 2 tim 1:10), then it is a spiritual salvation since the Gospel is the Word of truth that brings salvation(eph 1:13) & faith comes from hearing the message, the word of faith(rom 10:8-17)

    Just like the apostle Paul, timothy preached the Gospel.

    2 Timothy 4:5 But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.

    Ephesians 4:11-16 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.

    We are the body of Christ, the Church, His fellow workers(1 cor 3:9) who do His works(john 14:12) including His works of salvation.

    God bless kabayan.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by fredoheaven View Post
    Hi,

    Have you considered that the mentally retarded done good?
    Those children who died young due to sickness etc. have done good?
    Or those babies who have no knowledge or understanding done any good deeds?
    Are you saying they will not be saved?

    Is this not sound SAFE and not SAVED?

    Thanks
    Sin is the transgression of the law & believing not in the Son of God. How can God not have mercy on these people just because they don't have faith, thus, FAITH ALONE SAVES IS A LIE.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Seohce View Post
    If we believe that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Word(john 1:1-3 & 14), the life- giving Spirit(1 cor 15:45, john 6:63), the Lord & Savior of His body, the Church( eph 5:23, col 1:18,phil 3:20, 2 tim 1:10), then it is a spiritual salvation since the Gospel is the Word of truth that brings salvation(eph 1:13) & faith comes from hearing the message, the word of faith(rom 10:8-17)

    Just like the apostle Paul, timothy preached the Gospel.

    2 Timothy 4:5 But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.

    Ephesians 4:11-16 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.

    We are the body of Christ, the Church, His fellow workers(1 cor 3:9) who do His works(john 14:12) including His works of salvation.

    God bless kabayan.
    Hi,

    Does the context in 1 Timothy says that? Or is that you are just referring some other verses? We know that, faith comes from hearing the word but how do we described or define the faith for our salvation? Is it historical belief? Such one just could believe in Christ’s personhood, that he is the Word, God, Son of God etc.? or simply having “faith I take Him” as Saviour, the kind of receiving as in John 1:12? Or faith which simply means”trust” as in Ephesians 1:13?

    Umm? Are you going out to earn your salvation? Are you going to do that which was done by our Lord, which He said “It is finished?” Does Jesus really says the works includes earning one’s salvation? Or we are just told to proclaim salvation just like Timothy?

    Thanks Kabayan,

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Clearly in the following scripture the bible is saying that in fact works are vitally important.

    James 1:22-25
    .22 However, become doers of the word+ and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves with false reasoning.
    23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer,+ this one is like a man looking at his own face* in a mirror. 24 For he looks at himself, and he goes away and immediately forgets what sort of person he is. 25 But the one who peers into the perfect law+ that belongs to freedom and continues in it has become, not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work; and he will be happy in what he does.+

    What about this -
    (
    Romans 10:10)
    10 For with the heart one exercises faith for righteousness, but with the mouth one makes public declaration+ for salvation.

    With all respects , you are misinterpreting the scriptures. Titus 3:5 is merely showing how kind and loving God was to show us mercy and allow us to be saved.
    It is showing us that we not getting forgiven because we deserve it (we all all sinners) we getting forgiven because of how much God loves us.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Seohce View Post
    Sin is the transgression of the law & believing not in the Son of God. How can God not have mercy on these people just because they don't have faith, thus, FAITH ALONE SAVES IS A LIE.
    Hi,

    I don’t get your message here, is not having faith requires hearing the word, understand the word? Does the retarded have faith? Or the babes have understanding of the saving knowledge of Christ? So what are you trying to imply? Since because they have no faith or understand the message of salvation is that they are no longer going to heaven? Is this what you mean kabayan?

    Have you heard something SAFE and SAVED?
    You said “FAITH ALONE SAVES IS A LIE.”

    Is not what the Bible says speaks of” Faith in Him” or “Fath in Christ” that saves and not the general statement of FAITH ALONE?

    Are you aware of this statement is different: Faith alone vs. Faitn in Christ? What do you think?

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by RuggeroA View Post
    Clearly in the following scripture the bible is saying that in fact works are vitally important.

    James 1:22-25
    .22 However, become doers of the word+ and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves with false reasoning.
    23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer,+ this one is like a man looking at his own face* in a mirror. 24 For he looks at himself, and he goes away and immediately forgets what sort of person he is. 25 But the one who peers into the perfect law+ that belongs to freedom and continues in it has become, not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work; and he will be happy in what he does.+

    What about this -
    (
    Romans 10:10)
    10 For with the heart one exercises faith for righteousness, but with the mouth one makes public declaration+ for salvation.

    With all respects , you are misinterpreting the scriptures. Titus 3:5 is merely showing how kind and loving God was to show us mercy and allow us to be saved.
    It is showing us that we not getting forgiven because we deserve it (we all all sinners) we getting forgiven because of how much God loves us.
    Hi,

    Thanks you just pointed out the importance of works in our Christian life. Amen! It is important to those who are saved! Also you mentioned the love of God for us. Is not the love of God manifested when Christ died? Romans 5:8

    Thanks

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Seohce View Post
    I feel sorry for the mentally retarded/disabled people, the children who died young due to sickness, mishaps or accidents the good people who are not under law but do the things of the law, who have no knowledge or understanding that they need to have faith to be saved and even worst is that the God of mercy, grace & justice can’t do anything to save them because it will compromise your very pure & unquestionable doctrine. May God forgive you for your deception & for blaspheming the Holy Spirit of God.
    Hi,

    I missed this one Kabayan, why you feel sorry with them? Is this imply to do in trying to help or save them? Is not God gracious and merciful?

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterJens View Post
    The none logic of faith is if you follow to know Christ is just accepting Him like a name,
    or a prize in a raffle, lottery, is absurd. You do not get married like this, and this is more
    profound.

    The idea I am evil for believing anything is also totally wrong. God does not care what
    you believe, he cares why you believe and how you behave as a result.

    Without being in communion with Him we are doomed. Abide in the vine or die.
    Behaviour shows where we are, which should drive us to repentance, sorrow and
    Christ. But these realities are hard to find, so always the question is were are we.

    Most people have zero care for God until there lives fall apart. So it is hard to bring
    reality to bare when things are sweet. Worse still when people of faith deny the evil of sin.
    Yep good point peteypans.. lol..


    Now the marriage vow is do you promise to love and obey until death do you part..?

    Now the similarity Do you promise to keep the faith to the end.. meaning those who keep the faith until the end will recieve the missing jewel.. the reward...comfirmation... for service...
    PeterJens likes this.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by JIMBO43 View Post
    Yep good point peteypans.. lol..


    Now the marriage vow is do you promise to love and obey until death do you part..?

    Now the similarity Do you promise to keep the faith to the end.. meaning those who keep the faith until the end will recieve the missing jewel.. the reward...comfirmation... for service...
    Good one! Let's Keep the faith for rewards for service, to the Glory of God! Amen! Since we already entered this relationship via marriage, we need to keep the vow to propel love and devotion. This is good for having a relationship with Christ we have since we placed our faith in Him.
    JIMBO43 likes this.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    You basically just speaking from your head , not backing up anything with Scripture. Where are you getting that from ?

    Clearly in the following scripture the bible is saying that in fact works are vitally important.

    James 1:22-25
    .22 However, become doers of the word+ and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves with false reasoning.
    23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer,+ this one is like a man looking at his own face* in a mirror. 24 For he looks at himself, and he goes away and immediately forgets what sort of person he is. 25 But the one who peers into the perfect law+ that belongs to freedom and continues in it has become, not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work; and he will be happy in what he does.+

    What about this -
    (
    Romans 10:10)
    10 For with the heart one exercises faith for righteousness, but with the mouth one makes public declaration+ for salvation.

    With all respects , you are misinterpreting the scriptures. Titus 3:5 is merely showing how kind and loving God was to show us mercy and allow us to be saved.
    It is showing us that we not getting forgiven because we deserve it (we all all sinners) we getting forgiven because of how much God loves us.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by RuggeroA View Post
    Clearly in the following scripture the bible is saying that in fact works are vitally important.

    James 1:22-25
    .22 However, become doers of the word+ and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves with false reasoning.
    23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer,+ this one is like a man looking at his own face* in a mirror. 24 For he looks at himself, and he goes away and immediately forgets what sort of person he is. 25 But the one who peers into the perfect law+ that belongs to freedom and continues in it has become, not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work; and he will be happy in what he does.+

    What about this -
    (
    Romans 10:10)
    10 For with the heart one exercises faith for righteousness, but with the mouth one makes public declaration+ for salvation.

    With all respects , you are misinterpreting the scriptures. Titus 3:5 is merely showing how kind and loving God was to show us mercy and allow us to be saved.
    It is showing us that we not getting forgiven because we deserve it (we all all sinners) we getting forgiven because of how much God loves us.
    Those are works of sanctification, Not works which one does to be saved..

    If one teaches works are required to get saved, Stay saved, or maintain salvation. they are not adhering to those passages because thpse passages are not talking about how to be saved, But how saved people live.

    Titus says we are not saved by any work of righteousness.. But solely by Gods mercy.. HE SAVED US..
    dcontroversal likes this.
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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