Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
822
113
Peter nailed it when he said of Paul's writings..."They are hard to understand and those who are unlearned in the scriptures do twist them to the point of being judged".....
Ah...of course we've had enough conversation for you to be able to guess where my mind went here...that, to me, abiding is necessary and is the only thing necessary after my saving. And that to me, it is a twisting of all Paul said to say that abiding is not necessary and it can lead one back to the point of being judged.

NOT that I think men do it of evil purposes. And God doesn't judge based on doctrine but on the hearts intents.
 

JohnTalmid

Senior Member
Mar 17, 2017
516
44
28
Baptism is tword the remissions of sin and has power because of Messiah. I noticed you said ceremonial law had no effect.. Though scripture makes it clear the sacrifice in the wilderness did cleanse the sin's of the congregation of Israel. Where it failed was at changing the hearts of men Yeshua Messiah accomplished this on the Cross.
 
Last edited:
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,430
0
Ok you say you believe in christs words then why dont you believe that those who keep the faith to the end will be saved ?... its a clear instruction from God him self..

throughout the old testement people had to be washed clean,,, in festivals and rituals,, it was a continusly ongoing process.. this was all the work Of God,,, to remind those to renew them selves,,

He carrys this process on in the new testement with renew your mind daily,, and die to self daily,, allso to practice what yopu preach, why ???????????? because you know one can fall away,,, its not rocket science and its not complicated,...
We live in a New Covenant build upon better promises of which the blood of Jesus speaks of better things.

The blood of Jesus cleanses us because we are in Him. 1 John 1:7

If we live by the flesh - we will have trouble in this life. Take up shooting heroin in your arms today and the reality of living by the flesh will be obvious.

Sin in the flesh does not un-do the righteousness of God which we have in Christ in our inner man that has been created in righteousness and holiness.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
Why should God judge His people different than the world?

That is not impartial judgement but being partial.

The Lord says he will forget our sins, if we walk in His ways and believe in His son.

Why is it too difficult to see, finding Gods ways opens the door, learning His intentions
and fellowship is the key. Somehow people want a standard not because they understand
the standard but so they can feel secure. But Christ is asking about insight, love, truth,
ones direction of ones heart. This is not something you can work at like an exam, it is
about change, about finding a path and growing through the process.
This post reeks Peter (the bolded above) and fails to understand or even take into account the grace and mercy applied through the blood to believers....

God said, Esau I hated and Jacob I loved.......those who apply faith biblically stand in a position of grace, which does temper our judgment with mercy and instead of wrath it is chastening.....God is not partial in his judgment...it is called a covenant relationship and being sons and daughters as opposed to the children of the devil.......

AND on top of that....GOD said-->For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
It always comes back to Christ. This is a stumbling block to the works-based mindset.

Just what are these commandments? John tells us in his book. #1 = to believe in Christ which means to rely on all that he has already done. #2 = to walk in His love that is in us by the Holy Spirit. Rom. 5:5

1 John 3:23 (NASB)
[SUP]23[/SUP] This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

"Doing what is right" is believing in Christ's work which is right believing and this believing will release the life of Christ which is in us now to live godly and righteously in this present world. Titus 2:11-13

How did Jesus walk while in this earth? By complete dependence on the Father within Him for life and living while on this earth. Jesus said that He could do nothing of Himself but the Father in Him - He does His works. We too walk in dependence on the life of Christ within us just as Jesus did of the Father.

Knowing the way of righteousness is to rely on Christ's righteousness and not trying to establish our own righteousness by what we do or don't do - which the Law is a symbol of.

Christ's righteousness is always a stumbling block to the D.I.Y self-righteousness/holiness humanistic mindset. The Jews had the same mindset.

Romans 10:2-3 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.

[SUP]3 [/SUP] For not knowing about God's righteousness and "seeking to establish their own," they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.





I will take the righteousness of Christ applied by faith any and every day over my own works or merit....

The plenteous in number will boast of their works before the throne, thinking their works punched their ticket into the kingdom....gonna be a bad day for them.....the door of works will never merit enough to equal the righteousness of Christ and faith...the simplistic faith applied by a believer.....
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
I never said I am forced to keep the commandments I said I do because I am redeemed. It is not by works any man should boast. Is it because I say in my inward man I keep the Torah and agree fully with G-d that you are saying I am trying to be saved by works? Heaven forbid the flesh inherit the Kingdom my body daily wars against me and it is controlled by sin so I am a slave in my inward man to his word that I may be found blameless at his coming at the end of this age and not continue to be a slave to sin.
I really do not recall addressing you and the post you quoted was not even aimed at you....so............do you keep all 600 plus laws 24/7/365 days a year without one failure....?

ANSWER-->NO........Jesus is the answer to the schoolmaster that teaches you that you cannot live up to God's standard.....so, no offence, but since you addressed me when I was not even talking to you I will say.....

You keep trusting the schoolmaster...me....I will trust the MASTER himself....He said..."He that believe on the Son is having everlasting life"

The schoolmaster (the law)points you to Jesus......and the entire canon of law can be summed up in....

Love God
Love your neighbors

And for the record.....every person I know who believes Grace thru faith eternal salvation also believes we are to produce fruit/works which are the result of the salvation one already possesses in Christ....A plant, animal, tree, man etc. cannot produce fruit unless they have already been born and had a period of growth and maturity...

FAITH saves eternally void of human work or merit
Genuine faith that saves will be seen in the fruit (after growth and maturity)

EVEN if only one piece of fruit come to be...such as a cup of cold water I the name of Jesus......
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Thats why we need too be careful. And why is thin ki can be confused. Especially if we believe an English type to is perfect (i.e. Kevin only)

Wow. This is aweful. Thats what you get when you type on an IPAD..It is supposed to say : things can be so confusing, especially if we believe the English Bible is perfect (I.E. KJV Only)
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113

Wow. This is aweful. Thats what you get when you type on an IPAD..It is supposed to say : things can be so confusing, especially if we believe the English Bible is perfect (I.E. KJV Only)
AHAHHAHA well.....you should seem me type on my phone HAHAH........
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Bema is just the place of judgement, a platform or seat, not the type of judgement.

Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be finally condemned with the world.
1 Cor 11:32

Judged here is "krinomenoi" which means passing judgement.
And the target of the judgement is on the people of God.

So to say there are different judgments based on these two greek words appears
to be reading too much into a reference to where the judgement is passed rather than
it is different between believers and non-believers.

You just proved my point.. Discipline comes from that judgment. It is when we are judged here on this earth fort sins we commit. The word chastening comes to mind.

Your also right. There are not two different judgments, Every man woman and child deserves the final "Kristin" judgment. The only things that separates the ones who will go to hell and the ones who will not is the cross.

Of course, I would not expect you to realize this..

Again, BEMAS is a place of judgment, The "JUDGE" Gives out the prize for the people who earned them. Like our judge will give us the reward for what we did in the body. Whether good or bad.

Salvation is NOT a reward. When you and those like you realize this, You may finally understand that.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
This post reeks Peter (the bolded above) and fails to understand or even take into account the grace and mercy applied through the blood to believers....

God said, Esau I hated and Jacob I loved.......those who apply faith biblically stand in a position of grace, which does temper our judgment with mercy and instead of wrath it is chastening.....God is not partial in his judgment...it is called a covenant relationship and being sons and daughters as opposed to the children of the devil.......

AND on top of that....GOD said-->For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
when you "THINK" you are ok, Your righteous, and your holy, You can not understand. You think you have earned your ray, And if God judges you fairly and impartially you will get to heaven.

Grace is a foreign term to you you will never understand,
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
when you "THINK" you are ok, Your righteous, and your holy, You can not understand. You think you have earned your ray, And if God judges you fairly and impartially you will get to heaven.

Grace is a foreign term to you you will never understand,
I heard that..it all boils down to the simplicity that is found in Christ....

It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save those who believe....<---as simple as it can be-->He that believes on the Son is having everlasting life....

For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
 
Feb 24, 2015
13,204
168
0
You just proved my point..
Bema is just the place of judgement, a platform or seat, not the type of judgement.

Nevertheless, when we are
judged in this way by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be finally condemned with the world.
1 Cor 11:32

Judged here is "krinomenoi" which means passing judgement.
And the target of the judgement is on the people of God.

So to say there are different judgments based on these two greek words appears
to be reading too much into a reference to where the judgement is passed rather than
it is different between believers and non-believers.


The above is the point. You have taken two greek words describing different things and made
them into the same subject, judgement, while this is simply mixing up meanings.

The objective is simply to justify the guilty without repentance or getting right with God.
The whole concept you are following is justification without cleansing or reconciliation, because
in your view there is no reconciliation. But then there is no salvation, because everything is
about communion and oneness. Abiding in the vine, is being part of it, and living through it.

God does not have unholy vessels. Yet this is the dilemma you face and all who take a similar
road to you. Your own self condemnation can never accept God can make you pure.

Even though the gnostic teaching says you have purity in the spirit, it is limited and constrained.
But ask deeper, is there something you have failed to hand over to the Lord, an area of your
life you cannot accept, something that no matter how feeble it is yours and you want to hang on to it.

Dying to this world is much harder than any realise, the giving up of everything. No ties, no conditions,
no dependencies. That is loving God with everything you are.

The games people play have no resolution until they stop playing, defending, when before God it is just
us and Him. Facing our ultimate mortality and love alone is the eternal reality, is a hard place for people
of this world to come to accept. But the cross is the only way, death to the lusts and passions of the
flesh and walking in the commands of Christ.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Bema is just the place of judgement, a platform or seat, not the type of judgement.

Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be finally condemned with the world.
1 Cor 11:32

Judged here is "krinomenoi" which means passing judgement.
And the target of the judgement is on the people of God.

So to say there are different judgments based on these two greek words appears
to be reading too much into a reference to where the judgement is passed rather than
it is different between believers and non-believers.


The above is the point. You have taken two greek words describing different things and made
them into the same subject, judgement, while this is simply mixing up meanings.

The objective is simply to justify the guilty without repentance or getting right with God.
The whole concept you are following is justification without cleansing or reconciliation, because
in your view there is no reconciliation. But then there is no salvation, because everything is
about communion and oneness. Abiding in the vine, is being part of it, and living through it.

God does not have unholy vessels. Yet this is the dilemma you face and all who take a similar
road to you. Your own self condemnation can never accept God can make you pure.

Even though the gnostic teaching says you have purity in the spirit, it is limited and constrained.
But ask deeper, is there something you have failed to hand over to the Lord, an area of your
life you cannot accept, something that no matter how feeble it is yours and you want to hang on to it.

Dying to this world is much harder than any realise, the giving up of everything. No ties, no conditions,
no dependencies. That is loving God with everything you are.

The games people play have no resolution until they stop playing, defending, when before God it is just
us and Him. Facing our ultimate mortality and love alone is the eternal reality, is a hard place for people
of this world to come to accept. But the cross is the only way, death to the lusts and passions of the
flesh and walking in the commands of Christ.

Please try to read Peter The same English word "Judgemnt" is used to interpret both Greek words. Again the verse you used PROVES my point.. We are judged here on earth so we will not be judged (condemned) with the rest of the world.

Why do you IGNORE the passages I posted? You are being dishonest, and ignoring those.

Again, 2 for 5: 10. For we all must appear befor ethe JUDGMENT seat, that each one may recieve the things done in thbe4 body whether GOOD OR BAD!

Rom 14: 10, for we all must stand before the judgment seat of God.

This is what a believer in God will stand. The bema seat judgment, NOT THE judgment you are trying to impose. Both passages your posted PROVE my point. We are JUDGED here on earth (punished) not in heaven.

A non child of god is not disciplined on earth.. they will reci9eve their judgment in heaven!
 
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
822
113
I heard that..it all boils down to the simplicity that is found in Christ....

It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save those who believe....<---as simple as it can be-->He that believes on the Son is having everlasting life....

For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
Yes, but can a man say he is truly believing in Him when he worries about provision? In that case, the word reveals his hypocrisy and self deceit. He has believed Him for something that sounds pleasant while simultaneously ignoring him about an earthly matter He spoke on. It is to say: I'll believe and have the obedience of faith on this matter, but on the smaller matter, I will not have the obedience of faith and will go the way the world tells me and worry and save more than enough for the day.
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
garree hi.... its all good scripture but all means all,,, it doesnt mean those who are in christ will not be judged,,, where just going round in circles im afraid.
Hi Jimbo43. That would be double jeopardy .Christ was crucified once.

Not sure where you are getting the all from? All believers or all those who believe not(no faith) ?

Did you mean he forgives all as in every one of our sins, or will there be some we will be judged for? Which ones?

If there is no, none, nada condemnation in Christ someone has made the judgement and satisfied its requirements. In that sense Christ has sat at the judgment seat, as the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world.

That work not seen has been finished and demonstrated as a parable in John 19. Nothing can separate a true believer from His savior. If he has begun the good work of salvation in us he will finish to the end.

The outward demonstration of the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world.(six days) as it reads below..

John 19:13 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha.

Every one receives the same reward, eternal life, a new spirit that will never die.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

When and if we do judge our brother we are in effect placing Christ on the judgement seat, crucifying him over and over as if the one work of His faith falls short of the glory of God.

The verse is simply speaking to believers not to judge each other if Christ has already accomplished His mission.

2Co 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

Not he accepted of us.

2Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

In that sense he does not judge us by what we have done bad or good. The judgement cannot be in respect to what we have done bad or good .that would simply would make the grace of God without effect. We know the outcome if it was according to what we have done (eternal damnation.)

Again the we are the believer’s that have eternal life .The judgment seat, the finished work of God. This is that every believer might receive the grace of God done in the body of Christ, according to his finished work, according to what he has done not of our own selves lest any man boast in false pride. .

The idea of good or bad on our behalf does not take away that we might be accepted in Him according to that which he has done, or grace is no longer grace.

For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.For whether we be beside ourselves (bad), it is to God: or whether we be sober(good) , it is for your cause. 2Co 5:12

Scripture ,,,,,,,,,,,for we are to judge those inside of the church. and expel the evil one amongst us... you can judge rightouessly to,, now that said,, where all going to be judged and recieve are due..
If we were judged because of our sin and receive what is due ...no man could be saved.

(why is this nesacary,,, well youve come to christ today,,, and you may recieve his blessings and be kitted out for your walk ahead,,, ie eternal life in christ.. but come tomorrow you could just decide to terrorise somebodies faith of truth,,, which is we will all be judged on judgement day.. all means all.. we will all recieve are due whether Good or bad..
If we receive His blessing why would he kick us out knowing no man can come unless he does all the work of drawing us ?.

He says if we do come he will in no way cast us out. He has the ability to finish that which he starts. His patience is better than our pride.

No man could be found with a righteousness of their own self.

Our walk ahead is by faith as that not seen, not after some work seen we could could do before we will believe God .Its what the apostate Jews were know for turning things upside down.

We must all keep the faith to the end,,, Garree i really am only intrested in the direct words of Jesus.. no amount of scripture trying to work Gods final reward out out is going to pursuade me other wise.
.

I would think if Christ’s final work as his reward for the things done in his body does not persuade you . Whose will, will?

If Christ has begun His work of faith (not of our own selves) he promises he will finish it to the end. Christian have passed from death to life . Again we are forgiven by the things done to His body, not our bodies of death, whether bad or good. .
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
Ok you say you believe in christs words then why dont you believe that those who keep the faith to the end will be saved ?... its a clear instruction from God him self..

Very clear, of course we believe Christs words according to His faith that works in us . He is our confidence .We are to put no confidence if the flesh. Our flesh is not the source of the mutual faith that works in us (Christ's) . We have the that treasure of authority in us but could never be of us. No man can serve two masters. Christ and us. I choose Christ.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

throughout the old testement people had to be washed clean,,, in festivals and rituals,, it was a continusly ongoing process.. this was all the work Of God,,, to remind those to renew them selves,,

Ceremonial laws, as parables of the eternal things not seen are shadows used to preach the gospel in respect to the suffering of Christ beforehand and the glory that did follow.. Assuming that they could make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience would be avoiding the word not.

Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until “the time of reformation”. But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

Christ is not served by human hands as if he needed something from the clay he is forming.

It the same error that the apostate Jews, ceremonial laws performed as a sign to their own self they had salvation. (self-righteous.) It why Christ said to those who glory in their own flesh.

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. Joh 5:39

There is no life in shadows.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
Yes, but can a man say he is truly believing in Him when he worries about provision? In that case, the word reveals his hypocrisy and self deceit. He has believed Him for something that sounds pleasant while simultaneously ignoring him about an earthly matter He spoke on. It is to say: I'll believe and have the obedience of faith on this matter, but on the smaller matter, I will not have the obedience of faith and will go the way the world tells me and worry and save more than enough for the day.

There is no but....we are speaking to saving faith that saves, justifies, seals and sanctifies (positionally) in Christ for ever....

even the great men of the bible had their moments....Peter walked on water until he took his eyes off of JESUS and began to sink...NEVER lost his salvation though....

Not real for sure of the point you are making......
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
What it means If you are confused by usage of this word, you’re probably on the right track. Grammatically, the word torah should mean any instruction, but in actual usage:

Not any instruction.

We should be careful with the use of the word Torah..The way the apostate Jews used it it made the word of God without effect.

The title Torah often refers specifically to the Five Books of Moses. A parchment scroll version of the Torah, carefully written by an expert scribe, is kept in the ark of the synagogue and taken out to be read during services.

Torah can also refer to the entire Written Torah, meaning the entire canonized scripture.

Torah can also refer to the above plus the Oral Torah, which includes the commandments of men that make the word of God to no effect. We are not to follow the law of the fathers in that way . Christ called them a brood of vipers, as false prophets.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
We live in a New Covenant build upon better promises of which the blood of Jesus speaks of better things.

The blood of Jesus cleanses us because we are in Him. 1 John 1:7

If we live by the flesh - we will have trouble in this life. Take up shooting heroin in your arms today and the reality of living by the flesh will be obvious.

Sin in the flesh does not un-do the righteousness of God which we have in Christ in our inner man that has been created in righteousness and holiness.
Amen.....the word NOTHING means exactly that....

NOTHING can separate us from the Love of Christ..........
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
Please try to read Peter The same English word "Judgemnt" is used to interpret both Greek words. Again the verse you used PROVES my point.. We are judged here on earth so we will not be judged (condemned) with the rest of the world.

Why do you IGNORE the passages I posted? You are being dishonest, and ignoring those.

Again, 2 for 5: 10. For we all must appear befor ethe JUDGMENT seat, that each one may recieve the things done in thbe4 body whether GOOD OR BAD!

Rom 14: 10, for we all must stand before the judgment seat of God.

This is what a believer in God will stand. The bema seat judgment, NOT THE judgment you are trying to impose. Both passages your posted PROVE my point. We are JUDGED here on earth (punished) not in heaven.

A non child of god is not disciplined on earth.. they will reci9eve their judgment in heaven!
Amen to this as well.........