Yeah, I have listened to Prince and liked what I heard but I stopped listening to him because of his associations with Hagin and Hinn. Those two men give me the willies! I don't like WOF mixture. It makes me come out of my skin. But we are right to not listen if we consider a man to be a wolf. If we're wrong about them, God will show us I guess.
Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
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A
Didn't get to read all the thread.
Got stuck on Stephen story of the dog.
It feels like the story is incomplete.
I believe the dog would have been taken to the pound. Mad and vicious the dog tries and bites everyone around them. However it gets adopted by someone who watched the little girl torment the dog. That person trained the dog to be a service dog and he loved his life loved and helping someone love their life.
I believe that is what God does...he sees the abused people and takes us from our torment.,,while the world would condemn us to death, God gives us grace and teaches us how to trust and love others.
Got stuck on Stephen story of the dog.
It feels like the story is incomplete.
I believe the dog would have been taken to the pound. Mad and vicious the dog tries and bites everyone around them. However it gets adopted by someone who watched the little girl torment the dog. That person trained the dog to be a service dog and he loved his life loved and helping someone love their life.
I believe that is what God does...he sees the abused people and takes us from our torment.,,while the world would condemn us to death, God gives us grace and teaches us how to trust and love others.
This one? This is about the gift of righteousness.
[video=vimeo;11274133]https://vimeo.com/11274133[/video]
Or do you mean the first one - A biblical defense of the gospel of the grace of God in Christ?
Here is the link for that one.
https://vimeo.com/11804054
[video=vimeo;11274133]https://vimeo.com/11274133[/video]
Or do you mean the first one - A biblical defense of the gospel of the grace of God in Christ?
Here is the link for that one.
https://vimeo.com/11804054
A
If we want to follow the little girl's story we have to elaborate about how she was molested by her uncle and watched her mother beat and abuse her dad, while he got drunk to forget about his life.
(make believe stories, no reflection on reality)
Point being..people judge by outward appearance, but God sees the whole picture and can reach out and heal and teach anyone He chooses.
(make believe stories, no reflection on reality)
Point being..people judge by outward appearance, but God sees the whole picture and can reach out and heal and teach anyone He chooses.
Living by the flesh does not stop making us a new creation in Christ. It makes us deceived by sin and distorts our view of the Lord's love and grace towards God Himself, others and ourselves.
I have found the very same thing happening in my life. The more I see Christ and what He has done - and the more I agree with His work - the more He becomes manifested in my life and the things of the flesh just have fallen off like dead leaves on a branch.
Transformation is really the emerging new man that is in Christ being manifested in our bodies while we are here on this earth.
This transformation of what already is in us in Christ in our new creation ( It is not called a "new evolution" ) can be seen by man as our minds get renewed to the truth of Christ's work for us. Rom. 12:2
We are simply "being" who we already are when we "put on Christ".
The new man in Christ is like the invisible man - when he put clothes on, people could then see him. We put on Christ and people see the new man in Christ manifested and God gets glorified.
This all happens by grace through faith in what Christ has done and we participate in it with Him for it is God who is at work in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure. He will be faithful to us. Phil. 2:13
As we learn to walk by the spirit instead of the flesh - then we experience God's kind of life in our lives.
I have found the very same thing happening in my life. The more I see Christ and what He has done - and the more I agree with His work - the more He becomes manifested in my life and the things of the flesh just have fallen off like dead leaves on a branch.
Transformation is really the emerging new man that is in Christ being manifested in our bodies while we are here on this earth.
This transformation of what already is in us in Christ in our new creation ( It is not called a "new evolution" ) can be seen by man as our minds get renewed to the truth of Christ's work for us. Rom. 12:2
We are simply "being" who we already are when we "put on Christ".
The new man in Christ is like the invisible man - when he put clothes on, people could then see him. We put on Christ and people see the new man in Christ manifested and God gets glorified.
This all happens by grace through faith in what Christ has done and we participate in it with Him for it is God who is at work in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure. He will be faithful to us. Phil. 2:13
As we learn to walk by the spirit instead of the flesh - then we experience God's kind of life in our lives.
You don't understand. It's okay.
I live with a very passive aggressive woman who is constantly insisting I rephrase, say differently to her own liking, adjust my thoughts to her preferences, make my own sandwich that I am going to be the only one eating it to her exact specifiactions (no joke). So you can see why getting into a major discussion about how God only seems to be mysterious to me because of my lack of faith would be like going to the dentist for me.
I live with a very passive aggressive woman who is constantly insisting I rephrase, say differently to her own liking, adjust my thoughts to her preferences, make my own sandwich that I am going to be the only one eating it to her exact specifiactions (no joke). So you can see why getting into a major discussion about how God only seems to be mysterious to me because of my lack of faith would be like going to the dentist for me.
Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
The true way of transformation in Christ is by "beholding" the glory of the Lord as in a mirror. When we see the glory of the Lord we are transformed by the Holy Spirit.
"Transformed" is in the passive mood which mean the Holy Spirit changes us to reveal the life of Christ that is in us outwardly so that others can see Christ. We participate with the Spirit of God within us in this. Phil. 2:13
This "putting on of Christ" is paramount in order for others to see the real Christ that is in us. This being transformed is seen as renewing the mind to the truth of Christ and all that He has done. Romans 12:2
The real question is - just what is the "glory of the Lord"?
Glory which is "doxa" in Greek means "weight; the value indicated on a scale when a commodity would be weighed in the market place." When there was no scale which could measure the weight of a commodity. it was considered as "doxa".
"Doxa" is a reading that is beyond the scale. When you rest in God's opinion of you, when you are persuaded of His persuasion, when you accept His acceptance, and you believe in His belief of you, you are beholding and living in the "glory" of God.
It's a manifestation of His goodness as He showed Moses when he asked to see His glory. God showed him His goodness.
He has completely and unconditionally given Himself over to you and He has revealed His love in the Lord Jesus Christ. Does this want to make us go out and sin all we want? No, a thousand times No!
It makes our hearts melt in love for Him as we see Him for who He truly is and run to the One who loves us and gave His life for us. We have died and our true life is hidden with Christ in God. Col. 3:3
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
The true way of transformation in Christ is by "beholding" the glory of the Lord as in a mirror. When we see the glory of the Lord we are transformed by the Holy Spirit.
"Transformed" is in the passive mood which mean the Holy Spirit changes us to reveal the life of Christ that is in us outwardly so that others can see Christ. We participate with the Spirit of God within us in this. Phil. 2:13
This "putting on of Christ" is paramount in order for others to see the real Christ that is in us. This being transformed is seen as renewing the mind to the truth of Christ and all that He has done. Romans 12:2
The real question is - just what is the "glory of the Lord"?
Glory which is "doxa" in Greek means "weight; the value indicated on a scale when a commodity would be weighed in the market place." When there was no scale which could measure the weight of a commodity. it was considered as "doxa".
"Doxa" is a reading that is beyond the scale. When you rest in God's opinion of you, when you are persuaded of His persuasion, when you accept His acceptance, and you believe in His belief of you, you are beholding and living in the "glory" of God.
It's a manifestation of His goodness as He showed Moses when he asked to see His glory. God showed him His goodness.
He has completely and unconditionally given Himself over to you and He has revealed His love in the Lord Jesus Christ. Does this want to make us go out and sin all we want? No, a thousand times No!
It makes our hearts melt in love for Him as we see Him for who He truly is and run to the One who loves us and gave His life for us. We have died and our true life is hidden with Christ in God. Col. 3:3
A
Yeah still don't like your imagery of an invisible man putting on Jesus like a suit of clothes..,rubs me the wrong way and seems too mystical even though to some it may sound spiritual,
Yes you have some verses that make it sound biblical but I still believe it's not quite right.
We are babes, we grow and learn from God. We do not start as spiritmen being clothed by Christ...we start as children leanrning to use our spiritual armor God has clothed us with.
Yes you have some verses that make it sound biblical but I still believe it's not quite right.
We are babes, we grow and learn from God. We do not start as spiritmen being clothed by Christ...we start as children leanrning to use our spiritual armor God has clothed us with.
okie dokie...... I understand that.
You are free to have your own opinions just like the rest of the body of Christ. I like the armor one for how we stand in Christ. It's a good one. It all speaks of "Him".
I believe we have a perfect spirit but we need to have our minds renewed to the truth of Christ being in us and joined as one spirit with Him. We are spiritual babies in our thinking.
Personally I like the analogy of the invisible man and when we put on Christ - others can see the love and grace of God for them. The invisible man was there in reality but just couldn't be seen by the natural eyes of the people.
Perhaps you have never seen the movie called "The Invisible Man"?
That might make a difference too in understanding the analogy......
But we are free in Christ to have other analogies. I'm sure there are tons of them that we can use as the Spirit reveals the things of Christ to us.
Another analogy I like is the plant turns it's face to "behold" the sun and in the sun the nutrients are given for the plant to produce chlorophyll which then produces glucose for the plant to grow to be what is already in it's original design to be.
The same thing happens to us in Christ as we "behold" the glory/goodness of the Lord as in a mirror. He supplies the nutrients for us to walk out what already is within us in our new creation which is joined as one spirit with Him.
.. I understand that.You are free to have your own opinions just like the rest of the body of Christ. I like the armor one for how we stand in Christ. It's a good one. It all speaks of "Him".
I believe we have a perfect spirit but we need to have our minds renewed to the truth of Christ being in us and joined as one spirit with Him. We are spiritual babies in our thinking.
Personally I like the analogy of the invisible man and when we put on Christ - others can see the love and grace of God for them. The invisible man was there in reality but just couldn't be seen by the natural eyes of the people.
Perhaps you have never seen the movie called "The Invisible Man"?
That might make a difference too in understanding the analogy...
...But we are free in Christ to have other analogies. I'm sure there are tons of them that we can use as the Spirit reveals the things of Christ to us.
Another analogy I like is the plant turns it's face to "behold" the sun and in the sun the nutrients are given for the plant to produce chlorophyll which then produces glucose for the plant to grow to be what is already in it's original design to be.
The same thing happens to us in Christ as we "behold" the glory/goodness of the Lord as in a mirror. He supplies the nutrients for us to walk out what already is within us in our new creation which is joined as one spirit with Him.
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U
Grace 777.
I find it interesting that there are two places to be a babe in Christ or mature in Christ.
I have not read yet in scripture where there are other stages in between, but I have not studied this out, so I am just thinking and reflecting...but I trust your view, but it seems to imply there are two places we can be in terms of our spiritual selves.
New to understanding who were are in Christ (babe) and then mature when we are fully persuaded of who we are in Christ (mature)?
I find it interesting that there are two places to be a babe in Christ or mature in Christ.
I have not read yet in scripture where there are other stages in between, but I have not studied this out, so I am just thinking and reflecting...but I trust your view, but it seems to imply there are two places we can be in terms of our spiritual selves.
New to understanding who were are in Christ (babe) and then mature when we are fully persuaded of who we are in Christ (mature)?
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Because the roommate is my mother.
I don't exactly let her run my life...I just don't get in arguments that I don't care about. If I can make her feel better by letting her have her way in how I pronounce a word or how I make my sandwich, it's a small thing.
And I've seen that such a need for control is really great fear.
If you are that controlling, to the point where everything becomes an argument, it is a fear of admitting that you really have no control over anything( you could die from cancer, someone could betray you, etc.) and you are trying to allay that fear by proving that you can control your own little slice of the world and everyone in it.
People with great fear - I feel pity for them. I want them to be free of fear. I don't want to send them into a panic. So if I can, I let them have their way. But it does get tiring being hounded constantly for doing everything not perfect enough and never speaking perfectly enough or loading the dishwasher perfectly enough. It is tiring to be around someone who thinks they are perfect and will go to war over the smallest and most insignificant things (to my mind).
I don't exactly let her run my life...I just don't get in arguments that I don't care about. If I can make her feel better by letting her have her way in how I pronounce a word or how I make my sandwich, it's a small thing.
And I've seen that such a need for control is really great fear.
If you are that controlling, to the point where everything becomes an argument, it is a fear of admitting that you really have no control over anything( you could die from cancer, someone could betray you, etc.) and you are trying to allay that fear by proving that you can control your own little slice of the world and everyone in it.
People with great fear - I feel pity for them. I want them to be free of fear. I don't want to send them into a panic. So if I can, I let them have their way. But it does get tiring being hounded constantly for doing everything not perfect enough and never speaking perfectly enough or loading the dishwasher perfectly enough. It is tiring to be around someone who thinks they are perfect and will go to war over the smallest and most insignificant things (to my mind).
I believe the renewing of the mind is where we are transformed to manifest outwardly "what already is true within us in Christ."
I believe that all true Christians are born from above with the nature of God in them as new creations in Christ - sealed by the Holy Spirit.
Circumcised by Christ Himself where the body of flesh where the power of sin still resides ( Romans 7:17-22 ) is "cut away" from the inner man in Christ - that these true believers in Christ finished work all desire to live godly and to manifest all that Christ is in them now in the new creation.
Where we may differ is on the "process" that this is done and of course the consequences for not walking by the spirit.
To some it means not experiencing the things of God that is part of our inheritance because we are in the kingdom of God. ( Rom. 8:13 )
To others they believe that our loving Father throws His children into hell if the ydon't "perform" and keep themselves saved.
Here is my view on the "process" of walking out what is already in us in our new creation which is one spirit with the Lord Jesus Christ.
We are transformed by the Holy Spirit as we behold the glory of the Lord as in a mirror - 2 Cor. 3:17-18.
This transformation is a passive occurrence ( as the Greek shows the word for "transformed" is in the passive voice - which means that something is being done to the person - not the person themselves doing it ).
We do participate in this with the Holy Spirit as it is God that is at work in us - both to will and to do of His good pleasure. Phil. 2:13
This is similar to what happened to Moses when he was beholding God on the mountain - his face shined with the glory of the Lord and it transformed his face and the Israelites could see it ( Altho Moses' was fading - ours in Christ gets brighter - from glory to glory )
Also the same Greek word is used when Jesus was "transfigured" on the mountain of transfiguration and the glory of Him shone out for the disciples to see.
This too was passive - which means that Jesus did not do it Himself - it was done to Him.
Jesus was manifesting outwardly what He already really was inside of Him - in His spirit where the Holy Spirit and the Father are as One with Him.
Lastly the same Greek word was used in Romans 12:2 - be transformed by the renewing of our mind. This too is "passive".
This renewing of our mind involves the realities of Christ in us and all that He has done on the cross and resurrection - and the fact that we too died with Him on the cross and rose with Him to newness of life in the Spirit. - in our inner man in Christ - the new creation.
I maintain that the teaching about Christ brings about the grace and faith necessary to live the true Christian life and it all comes from being a manifestation of what already is in us because of our union with Christ as one spirit in the inner man in Christ.
I believe Peter walking on the water is a mini-version of what the true Christian life looks like - keeping our eyes on Jesus only and in obedience to Jesus' word "Come"
Peter was able to walk on water and he himself was able to do things that normally couldn't be done in the natural.
One last thing was when I looked at how Jesus responded to others - He was moved with compassion - this was a passive occurrence too that was manifesting the life that was in Him to help others.
It was not a conscious decision to say " Ok, now I will heal someone".....it was a passive response from the life of the Father which is love that was in Him.
I hope I was able to articulate what I am seeing.....
I believe that all true Christians are born from above with the nature of God in them as new creations in Christ - sealed by the Holy Spirit.
Circumcised by Christ Himself where the body of flesh where the power of sin still resides ( Romans 7:17-22 ) is "cut away" from the inner man in Christ - that these true believers in Christ finished work all desire to live godly and to manifest all that Christ is in them now in the new creation.
Where we may differ is on the "process" that this is done and of course the consequences for not walking by the spirit.
To some it means not experiencing the things of God that is part of our inheritance because we are in the kingdom of God. ( Rom. 8:13 )
To others they believe that our loving Father throws His children into hell if the ydon't "perform" and keep themselves saved.
Here is my view on the "process" of walking out what is already in us in our new creation which is one spirit with the Lord Jesus Christ.
We are transformed by the Holy Spirit as we behold the glory of the Lord as in a mirror - 2 Cor. 3:17-18.
This transformation is a passive occurrence ( as the Greek shows the word for "transformed" is in the passive voice - which means that something is being done to the person - not the person themselves doing it ).
We do participate in this with the Holy Spirit as it is God that is at work in us - both to will and to do of His good pleasure. Phil. 2:13
This is similar to what happened to Moses when he was beholding God on the mountain - his face shined with the glory of the Lord and it transformed his face and the Israelites could see it ( Altho Moses' was fading - ours in Christ gets brighter - from glory to glory )
Also the same Greek word is used when Jesus was "transfigured" on the mountain of transfiguration and the glory of Him shone out for the disciples to see.
This too was passive - which means that Jesus did not do it Himself - it was done to Him.
Jesus was manifesting outwardly what He already really was inside of Him - in His spirit where the Holy Spirit and the Father are as One with Him.
Lastly the same Greek word was used in Romans 12:2 - be transformed by the renewing of our mind. This too is "passive".
This renewing of our mind involves the realities of Christ in us and all that He has done on the cross and resurrection - and the fact that we too died with Him on the cross and rose with Him to newness of life in the Spirit. - in our inner man in Christ - the new creation.
I maintain that the teaching about Christ brings about the grace and faith necessary to live the true Christian life and it all comes from being a manifestation of what already is in us because of our union with Christ as one spirit in the inner man in Christ.
I believe Peter walking on the water is a mini-version of what the true Christian life looks like - keeping our eyes on Jesus only and in obedience to Jesus' word "Come"
Peter was able to walk on water and he himself was able to do things that normally couldn't be done in the natural.
One last thing was when I looked at how Jesus responded to others - He was moved with compassion - this was a passive occurrence too that was manifesting the life that was in Him to help others.
It was not a conscious decision to say " Ok, now I will heal someone".....it was a passive response from the life of the Father which is love that was in Him.
I hope I was able to articulate what I am seeing.....
U
I like analogies they reveal a connections and truth that sometimes escape us.
okie dokie...... I understand that.
You are free to have your own opinions just like the rest of the body of Christ. I like the armor one for how we stand in Christ. It's a good one. It all speaks of "Him".
I believe we have a perfect spirit but we need to have our minds renewed to the truth of Christ being in us and joined as one spirit with Him. We are spiritual babies in our thinking.
Personally I like the analogy of the invisible man and when we put on Christ - others can see the love and grace of God for them. The invisible man was there in reality but just couldn't be seen by the natural eyes of the people.
Perhaps you have never seen the movie called "The Invisible Man"?
That might make a difference too in understanding the analogy......
But we are free in Christ to have other analogies. I'm sure there are tons of them that we can use as the Spirit reveals the things of Christ to us.
Another analogy I like is the plant turns it's face to "behold" the sun and in the sun the nutrients are given for the plant to produce chlorophyll which then produces glucose for the plant to grow to be what is already in it's original design to be.
The same thing happens to us in Christ as we "behold" the glory/goodness of the Lord as in a mirror. He supplies the nutrients for us to walk out what already is within us in our new creation which is joined as one spirit with Him.
.. I understand that.You are free to have your own opinions just like the rest of the body of Christ. I like the armor one for how we stand in Christ. It's a good one. It all speaks of "Him".
I believe we have a perfect spirit but we need to have our minds renewed to the truth of Christ being in us and joined as one spirit with Him. We are spiritual babies in our thinking.
Personally I like the analogy of the invisible man and when we put on Christ - others can see the love and grace of God for them. The invisible man was there in reality but just couldn't be seen by the natural eyes of the people.
Perhaps you have never seen the movie called "The Invisible Man"?
That might make a difference too in understanding the analogy...
...But we are free in Christ to have other analogies. I'm sure there are tons of them that we can use as the Spirit reveals the things of Christ to us.
Another analogy I like is the plant turns it's face to "behold" the sun and in the sun the nutrients are given for the plant to produce chlorophyll which then produces glucose for the plant to grow to be what is already in it's original design to be.
The same thing happens to us in Christ as we "behold" the glory/goodness of the Lord as in a mirror. He supplies the nutrients for us to walk out what already is within us in our new creation which is joined as one spirit with Him.
Z
It's not a small thing tho.. you serve a spirit by doing what it wants.. you can't have 2 masters.. go against the grain and watch the ultimatum. You'll be forced to choose..
Because the roommate is my mother.
I don't exactly let her run my life...I just don't get in arguments that I don't care about. If I can make her feel better by letting her have her way in how I pronounce a word or how I make my sandwich, it's a small thing.
And I've seen that such a need for control is really great fear.
If you are that controlling, to the point where everything becomes an argument, it is a fear of admitting that you really have no control over anything( you could die from cancer, someone could betray you, etc.) and you are trying to allay that fear by proving that you can control your own little slice of the world and everyone in it.
People with great fear - I feel pity for them. I want them to be free of fear. I don't want to send them into a panic. So if I can, I let them have their way. But it does get tiring being hounded constantly for doing everything not perfect enough and never speaking perfectly enough or loading the dishwasher perfectly enough. It is tiring to be around someone who thinks they are perfect and will go to war over the smallest and most insignificant things (to my mind).
I don't exactly let her run my life...I just don't get in arguments that I don't care about. If I can make her feel better by letting her have her way in how I pronounce a word or how I make my sandwich, it's a small thing.
And I've seen that such a need for control is really great fear.
If you are that controlling, to the point where everything becomes an argument, it is a fear of admitting that you really have no control over anything( you could die from cancer, someone could betray you, etc.) and you are trying to allay that fear by proving that you can control your own little slice of the world and everyone in it.
People with great fear - I feel pity for them. I want them to be free of fear. I don't want to send them into a panic. So if I can, I let them have their way. But it does get tiring being hounded constantly for doing everything not perfect enough and never speaking perfectly enough or loading the dishwasher perfectly enough. It is tiring to be around someone who thinks they are perfect and will go to war over the smallest and most insignificant things (to my mind).