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Thread: Not By Works

  1. #27301
    Senior Member UnderGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Thank you, a passive occurrence, yes I agree it is done to us, and it does not work any other way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Grace777x70 View Post
    I believe the renewing of the mind is where we are transformed to manifest outwardly "what already is true within us in Christ."

    I believe that all true Christians are born from above with the nature of God in them as new creations in Christ - sealed by the Holy Spirit.

    Circumcised by Christ Himself where the body of flesh where the power of sin still resides ( Romans 7:17-22 ) is "cut away" from the inner man in Christ - that these true believers in Christ finished work all desire to live godly and to manifest all that Christ is in them now in the new creation.

    Where we may differ is on the "process" that this is done and of course the consequences for not walking by the spirit.

    To some it means not experiencing the things of God that is part of our inheritance because we are in the kingdom of God. ( Rom. 8:13 )

    To others they believe that our loving Father throws His children into hell if the ydon't "perform" and keep themselves saved.

    Here is my view on the "process" of walking out what is already in us in our new creation which is one spirit with the Lord Jesus Christ.

    We are transformed by the Holy Spirit as we behold the glory of the Lord as in a mirror - 2 Cor. 3:17-18.

    This transformation is a passive occurrence ( as the Greek shows the word for "transformed" is in the passive voice - which means that something is being done to the person - not the person themselves doing it ).

    We do participate in this with the Holy Spirit as it is God that is at work in us - both to will and to do of His good pleasure. Phil. 2:13

    This is similar to what happened to Moses when he was beholding God on the mountain - his face shined with the glory of the Lord and it transformed his face and the Israelites could see it ( Altho Moses' was fading - ours in Christ gets brighter - from glory to glory )

    Also the same Greek word is used when Jesus was "transfigured" on the mountain of transfiguration and the glory of Him shone out for the disciples to see.

    This too was passive - which means that Jesus did not do it Himself - it was done to Him.

    Jesus was manifesting outwardly what He already really was inside of Him - in His spirit where the Holy Spirit and the Father are as One with Him.

    Lastly the same Greek word was used in Romans 12:2 - be transformed by the renewing of our mind. This too is "passive".

    This renewing of our mind involves the realities of Christ in us and all that He has done on the cross and resurrection - and the fact that we too died with Him on the cross and rose with Him to newness of life in the Spirit. - in our inner man in Christ - the new creation.

    I maintain that the teaching about Christ brings about the grace and faith necessary to live the true Christian life and it all comes from being a manifestation of what already is in us because of our union with Christ as one spirit in the inner man in Christ.

    I believe Peter walking on the water is a mini-version of what the true Christian life looks like - keeping our eyes on Jesus only and in obedience to Jesus' word "Come"

    Peter was able to walk on water and he himself was able to do things that normally couldn't be done in the natural.

    One last thing was when I looked at how Jesus responded to others - He was moved with compassion - this was a passive occurrence too that was manifesting the life that was in Him to help others.

    It was not a conscious decision to say " Ok, now I will heal someone".....it was a passive response from the life of the Father which is love that was in Him.

    I hope I was able to articulate what I am seeing.....
    For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
    Romans 6:14

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    I'm not putting my foot down in here, Stephen. I just know that arguing over doctrine without walking in the Spirit in love, respecting one another, will get us nowhere. If we don't love one another and feel safe with one another, we have nothing but useless ramblings. If we go on in that same old way, there will never be unity.

    I need to disagree without walking in my flesh., still loving the one I disagree with. This means laying down my life of pride for my brother and for my other brothers and sisters. I don't demand they have some perfection of doctrine/knowledge of God that I don't have. I let them be where they are in their own relationship with God. If they aren't ready to bear or hear something, getting harsh with them will only make them hear me less, not more. Ans sometimes, what I have thought was error in them was really error in me.

    A man once said, no one was ever persuaded to love God through harshness.

    Another man said, if someone is one or two steps ahead of us spiritually, we will admire them. If they are many steps ahead of us, we will often think them quite evil.

    If I have all knowledge, but I speak it without love, I have nothing.
    Anything I do or say that is without love for another is worthless.

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    Senior Member TruthTalk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen63 View Post
    How? no one really answers that question.
    PROVERBS OF SOLOMON




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    When you walk your steps will not be hampered; when you run you will not stumble.


    Proverbs4:11-12

    "Turn your ear to wisdom, apply your heart to understanding, for the LORD gives wisdom. Then you will understand what is right and just and fair, for wisdom will enter your heart." Proverbs2:2


    10 Ways to Grow Spiritually

    1. Read through the Bible in a year.
    2. Choose a book of the Bible to study.
    3. Study a topic that will help you grow.
    4. Participate in a weekly small group Bible study
    5. Read three books to deepen your devotional life.
    6. Start a weekly prayer group
    7. Start a journal to record your growth.
    8. Record your blessings and answered prayers.
    9. Disciple a young believer.
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by UnderGrace View Post
    Thank you, a passive occurrence, yes I agree it is done to us, and it does not work any other way.
    I disagree.

    The Christian life is not passively watching the world pass by or waiting for a spiritual force to shape you into their mouthpieces.

    That sounds too much like opening people up for demonic possession and other witchcraft dressed up in Christian terms.

    The Christian life is where we grow up in Christ and start actively eat meat and discern good from evil. We rest and abide in Christ and that is not passive like a stagnant pool but is ever moving like a life giving stream.


    A plant isn't passive.

    Sanctification and maturity isn't. "Done to us" it happens as we learn to walk with the Holy spirit and stop demanding Dad to carry us every where.
    Last edited by Ariel82; 1 Week Ago at 11:54 AM.
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Zi View Post
    It's not a small thing tho.. you serve a spirit by doing what it wants.. you can't have 2 masters.. go against the grain and watch the ultimatum. You'll be forced to choose..
    I don't want to go against the grain. If it is at all in my power to bring no offense to someone, I will do that thing. I would rather bear their burden than make them bear me. I do not need to have my way. I'm more worried about a person caught in fear than I am about my right to assert myself. I lay down my rights in love for her.
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    I don't chafe at the term "our doing". We do participate in what God is doing in and through us.

    What I would chafe at is the notion that we put "the doing" from ourselves by self-effort and not from the life of Christ in us.
    It's all a matter of where this "work originates" from - our flesh or from our inner man in Christ.

    Outwardly they can look the same.
    I know that only God that looks on our heart can answer that question but it is subtle difference between works-based righteousness and faith-based righteousness.

    Another term I use a lot that may throw some off is that I say we are to "rest" in the finished work of Christ.
    The word "rest" can bring the connotations that we do nothing which is not the truth. It's the exact opposite.

    I won't speak for the others but as far as works or fruit go from a believer in Christ - here is what I believe when considering John Chapter 15 and the "works/fruit" of a believer.

    Jesus is the Vine - we are the branches. The branch bears fruit..it does not produce it.

    Without Him we can do nothing. We are to remain/abide/rest in the Lord - abide/remain/rest in the Lord and what He has done for us in His finished work. John 15

    The life of the Vine supplies the "sap"needed for the bearing of fruit but it is His fruit that is produced in us.

    Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is not a lazy passive existence. When we know that God has already provided everything we need and we access His wisdom, provision, strength by faith -
    we'll be governed by the Holy Spirit in a highly strategic and active life.

    Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is not an inactive lifestyle. It's a Spirit-led lifestyle where we flow in good works ( His fruit bearing in us ) that God had planned for us all along.

    Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our obedience in action.

    Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our warfare.

    Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our faith in action. -
    we are fighting the good fight of faith

    Hebrews 4:10-11 (NASB)
    10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.

    11 Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.

    There is a vast difference between "us" doing things and the Lord doing things through and in us.

    We can do things in our own flesh like Abraham tried to fulfill the will of God by creating an Ishmael or wait for the Lord to work through us to produce the child of promise - Isaac. Galatians 4:22-24, 30

    Psalm 127:1 (NASB)

    Unless the LORD builds the house, They labor in vain who build it
    ; Unless the LORD guards the city, The watchman keeps awake in vain.

    Notice that both groups of people are actively "building the house". One by the Lord and the other by their own efforts.
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    The new man in Christ - the new creation that is created in righteousness and

    holiness hears the heart voice of the Spirit and not an old head noise of the letter

    of the word. The Pharisees knew "bible knowledge" but they did not

    know God's heart and so they erred in really understanding what the

    scriptures were saying.


    The Lord wants us to look through His eyes and to live from His heart towards

    people, towards Him and towards ourselves as well.

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    Senior Member JIMBO43's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    A better version is this scripture ..

    2 Corinthians 5New Living Translation (NLT)

    New Bodies

    5 For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. 2 We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long to put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing. 3 For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies.[a] 4 While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it’s not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life. 5 God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit.


    Please can anyone see here we are reborn in heaven the completion from being born of the spirit... if we keep the faith until the end...
    Last edited by JIMBO43; 1 Week Ago at 12:01 PM.
    may the lord inspire you to post something that has come through communion..

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    Senior Member UnderGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    I do not really think that is what Grace7 meant.


    I think the vine receives from the branch, abiding is a passive place to be, it can only wait and be fed, if we are abiding we are receiving from Jesus, I think it is the exact opposite then He is our spiritual influence and we are protected form other spiritual influences.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ariel82 View Post
    I disagree.

    The Christian life is not passively watching the world pass by or waiting for a spiritual force to shape you into their mouthpieces.

    That sounds too much like opening people up for demonic possession and other witchcraft dressed up in Christian terms.

    The Christian life is where we grow up in Christ and start actively eat meat and discern good from evil. We rest and abide in Christ and that is not passive like a stagnant pool but is ever moving like a life giving stream.


    A plant isn't passive.
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    For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
    Romans 6:14

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    Default Re: Not By Works



    Grace and Mercy Personified
    or
    Not by Works

    An old Vietnam Vet and I sat down one afternoon to discuss God's Mercy and Grace; and the Veteran began to tell me his story about when he was finally able to purchase his 1984 Ferrari Testarossa. He said, one day I was on an empty straight away highway, on my way to visit a friend. Just by chance I decided I would test drive the new Pirelli P9s for handling and safety, and make sure the engine was fully broken in. As I approached top speed of 180 mph, there came a ridge in the road. On the other side of that ridge was a Highway Patrolman. I slowly applied my brakes to a complete stop, while at this time the Officer was slowly approaching my side window.


    Yes Officer I replied - 'Driver's license, registration and proof of insurance'; he said with a stern voice, to which I smartly complied. Man alive son do you know how fast you were going; yes Sir was my reply, about 165 mph; I clocked you at 175 was his reply. Well it just so happens that I too am a sports car fanatic and I sure would like to discuss engine performance and road handling issues with you - would you mind stopping at the local road house cafe' were we can talk further about your machine over coffee; I would be happy to Sir. The Highway Patrol Officer never issued me a citation.


    Well I said to my friend; that was God’s grace in your life that day; oh no said my friend, that was God's mercy upon my life that day; had the kind Officer paid for my coffee, that would have been God's Grace. Mercy is God not giving us what we do deserve, (punishment), and Grace is God giving us what we do not deserve, (forgiveness). Praise God for His Grace and Mercy in our daily lives. (Author Unknown).


    My Christan blog: Biblicalwisedomebyverse,blogspot.com

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    unblemished in His glorious presence, with great joy"

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    Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
    Except for the fact that the Kingdom of God is within all who are born from above!
    we are reborn in heaven with a new body the completion..
    2 Corinthians 5New Living Translation (NLT)

    New Bodies

    5 For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands.2 We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long to put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing. 3 For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies.[a] 4 While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it’s not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life. 5 God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit.


    Dc the deposit is his spirit to give you a chance to stay connected to the fine to recieve your salvation in heaven with a new body..

    The deposit is a guarentee from him that we can if we stay connected to his vine.....
    may the lord inspire you to post something that has come through communion..

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    persnoally i think where all Gods angels waiting to go to the light or the darkness.... this is our last chance saloon...
    may the lord inspire you to post something that has come through communion..

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Ariel82 View Post
    I disagree.

    The Christian life is not passively watching the world pass by or waiting for a spiritual force to shape you into their mouthpieces.

    That sounds too much like opening people up for demonic possession and other witchcraft dressed up in Christian terms.

    The Christian life is where we grow up in Christ and start actively eat meat and discern good from evil. We rest and abide in Christ and that is not passive like a stagnant pool but is ever moving like a life giving stream.


    A plant isn't passive.

    Sanctification and maturity isn't. "Done to us" it happens as we learn to walk with the Holy spirit and stop demanding Dad to carry us every where.
    It begins active and grows more passive as we begin to realize it is not us living and doing but is HIM living and doing in us. In our more active phase (which is normal, it is not abnormal), we are doing well, we are hungering to be good and righteous and serve others.

    When we go into a more passive state, it is when we realize that: the life I now live I live by the Son of God IN me. We become less and less busy about our growth and rely more and more on Him in us.

    Passive doesn't mean lazy. Passive means accepting, calm, waiting on God.

    Mary and Martha just make you love them. Don't you feel you will be able to immediately recognize them in heaven?
    Martha was busy and active to serve others. This was not abnormal. Jesus didn't chide or yell at her. But when she wanted Him to make Mary get up and work to help her, feeling she was being lazy, Jesus said Mary had chosen the better thing. She was passively sitting and listening to Him.

    Maybe you won't accept what I'm saying. Maybe you will later understand it. But if a man is in an active stage, he does well. If a man is in a passive stage, he does well too. Neither should chide the other. They are both in different stages or states.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Grace777x70 View Post
    This teaching here on God's greatest gift to us of His righteousness will feed our new creation in Christ and your heart will burn with the witness of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit bears witness of Christ's work.

    Let me know what you think of this.

    Why are hypergrace preachers being advertised in the BDF?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grace777x70 View Post
    I believe the renewing of the mind is where we are transformed to manifest outwardly "what already is true within us in Christ."

    I believe that all true Christians are born from above with the nature of God in them as new creations in Christ - sealed by the Holy Spirit.

    Circumcised by Christ Himself where the body of flesh where the power of sin still resides ( Romans 7:17-22 ) is "cut away" from the inner man in Christ - that these true believers in Christ finished work all desire to live godly and to manifest all that Christ is in them now in the new creation.

    Where we may differ is on the "process" that this is done and of course the consequences for not walking by the spirit.

    To some it means not experiencing the things of God that is part of our inheritance because we are in the kingdom of God. ( Rom. 8:13 )

    To others they believe that our loving Father throws His children into hell if the ydon't "perform" and keep themselves saved.

    Here is my view on the "process" of walking out what is already in us in our new creation which is one spirit with the Lord Jesus Christ.

    We are transformed by the Holy Spirit as we behold the glory of the Lord as in a mirror - 2 Cor. 3:17-18.

    This transformation is a passive occurrence ( as the Greek shows the word for "transformed" is in the passive voice - which means that something is being done to the person - not the person themselves doing it ).

    We do participate in this with the Holy Spirit as it is God that is at work in us - both to will and to do of His good pleasure. Phil. 2:13

    This is similar to what happened to Moses when he was beholding God on the mountain - his face shined with the glory of the Lord and it transformed his face and the Israelites could see it ( Altho Moses' was fading - ours in Christ gets brighter - from glory to glory )

    Also the same Greek word is used when Jesus was "transfigured" on the mountain of transfiguration and the glory of Him shone out for the disciples to see.

    This too was passive - which means that Jesus did not do it Himself - it was done to Him.

    Jesus was manifesting outwardly what He already really was inside of Him - in His spirit where the Holy Spirit and the Father are as One with Him.

    Lastly the same Greek word was used in Romans 12:2 - be transformed by the renewing of our mind. This too is "passive".

    This renewing of our mind involves the realities of Christ in us and all that He has done on the cross and resurrection - and the fact that we too died with Him on the cross and rose with Him to newness of life in the Spirit. - in our inner man in Christ - the new creation.

    I maintain that the teaching about Christ brings about the grace and faith necessary to live the true Christian life and it all comes from being a manifestation of what already is in us because of our union with Christ as one spirit in the inner man in Christ.

    I believe Peter walking on the water is a mini-version of what the true Christian life looks like - keeping our eyes on Jesus only and in obedience to Jesus' word "Come"

    Peter was able to walk on water and he himself was able to do things that normally couldn't be done in the natural.

    One last thing was when I looked at how Jesus responded to others - He was moved with compassion - this was a passive occurrence too that was manifesting the life that was in Him to help others.

    It was not a conscious decision to say " Ok, now I will heal someone".....it was a passive response from the life of the Father which is love that was in Him.

    I hope I was able to articulate what I am seeing.....
    sorry to burst your bubble but the sky is not blue,,, thats just a reflection... and all that you write here is just a reflection of a legalistic approach to deny God ,,,,,,,,,,,coz they dont want to embrace change they reject it.. and no longer grow... your growth however is grown for you,,,,,really ? since when did anybody grew your body... you grew your body for your self.... just like you have to accept suffient grace for your self too...

    accept it and grow ... jeject it and slow.....
    may the lord inspire you to post something that has come through communion..

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by JIMBO43 View Post
    we are reborn in heaven with a new body the completion..
    2 Corinthians 5New Living Translation (NLT)

    New Bodies

    5 For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands.2 We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long to put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing. 3 For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies.[a] 4 While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it’s not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life. 5 God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit.


    Dc the deposit is his spirit to give you a chance to stay connected to the fine to recieve your salvation in heaven with a new body..

    The deposit is a guarentee from him that we can if we stay connected to his vine.....
    So it is all up to you?
    Jesus did His part, which was not complete, therefore, you must finish what Jesus started by staying " connected to His vine".

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Persuaded View Post
    So it is all up to you?
    Jesus did His part, which was not complete, therefore, you must finish what Jesus started by staying " connected to His vine".
    like i just said you accept it or reject it.. thats you breaking his deposit for your self if you doo....

    Grace is an abundance and not a singlalrity.. Grace is a fountain of endless pooring love for you to accept his love and for you to love back...

    If you call a brother racca you are in favor of a firey furness...
    may the lord inspire you to post something that has come through communion..

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by UnderGrace View Post
    I do not really think that is what Grace7 meant.


    I think the vine receives from the branch, abiding is a passive place to be, it can only wait and be fed, if we are abiding we are receiving from Jesus, I think it is the exact opposite then He is our spiritual influence and we are protected form other spiritual influences.
    No, that might not be what G777 meant but my comment wasn't on what He said but what you said...

    Again I disagree with your use of passive acceptance. G777 has clarified that abiding is NOT passive.

    You may passively receive from God but you have to actively grow.

    Jesus is the vine and we are the branches so.., it would be that the branches receive from the vine?

    Even Jesus was tempted in the desert. Spiritual discernment between Good and evil and learning to eat. Spiritual meat is vital to becoming mature in Christ. The Bible tells us to move past the milk.

    The Christian life isn't just about being passive and waiting for things to happen to you.

    God doesn't want a passive personwaitung to be carried but active children walking with Him
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grace777x70 View Post

    I agree here in your synopsis of what certain types of behavior produce. The hall mark sign of the religious mind-set is being a bully in all it's different forms of which being subtle is one of them and they often use the "bible" and their thirst "for truth" to spiritually manipulate and control others.
    You mean bullying & subtile like this?
    Quote Originally Posted by Stunnedbygrace View Post
    And yet your vicious and ugly mutterings against your brothers DOESN'T embarrass you? You disdain them and attack them unlovingly because they do not have some perfect understanding of God that you think you have. You berate them for whatever you deem to be a wrong thought or understanding. You allow no man his own thought on a matter or on a verse. And so you become embarrassed that you used a word wrong whose definition has changed??

    One of the terms that can be used is "accountability" - this term itself is not bad but it can be used as a "tool" for the bully, dominating, controlling person on others in the body of Christ.
    Are you saying the christian is no longer accountable?

    I don't understand where you're going with this.....


    ( I a
    m not saying who you are responding to is doing that as I'm not paying attention to the back and forth going on but I am addressing only the "nature" of the bully that is revealed in the religious dominating, controlling mind-set. )


    Well, the person in the above post will bully with similar things, & then do a 180 degree turn & act like it didn't happen.

    We need to guard our hearts and yet still be open to allow the life of the Lord to minister to others.
    That I agree on.

    I believe we as christians need to watch carefully also to distinguish who's putting on these types of Jeckle & Hyde performances to bully & intimidate certain people.
    Meggido likes this.

  19. #27319
    Senior Member
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Aren't we allowed to share a teaching that helped us or that we think might help someone else? If a man says something and it in no way helps us to trust God more, we should just disregard what he says. If a man helps us to trust God more, great. Personally, it helped me hearing that man preach the gospel. If it didn't, I would have just said, he did not help me. I cannot wrap my mind around the way he teaches. Or, I disagreed with him on this point or that point.
    JIMBO43 likes this.

  20. #27320
    Senior Member Grace777x70's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Stunnedbygrace View Post
    I can't calm myself. It's too astounding. And now I'm remembering what Cee said yesterday that I couldn't understand either. But it makes sense now. Where he said: going toward vs. coming FROM righteousness. PFFT! Too amazing...
    I fully understand. When we "see" what the gospel of the grace of God in Christ has really done - there is no way we can go back to a religion. We can never go back to the self-reliance on what we do or don't do. It's all based on Him and in the hearing of Him - brings true life and peace and joy.

    The accurate preaching and teaching of Christ Himself combined with the "hearing" of the gospel brings faith and grace to walk in what He has already done for us.

    He supplies the nutrients for the growth that comes with the renewing of our minds to the truths of what Christ has already done.

    Last edited by Grace777x70; 1 Week Ago at 12:34 PM.
    The new man in Christ - the new creation that is created in righteousness and

    holiness hears the heart voice of the Spirit and not an old head noise of the letter

    of the word. The Pharisees knew "bible knowledge" but they did not

    know God's heart and so they erred in really understanding what the

    scriptures were saying.


    The Lord wants us to look through His eyes and to live from His heart towards

    people, towards Him and towards ourselves as well.

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