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Thread: Not By Works

  1. #35761
    Senior Member UnderGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Do you have a measuring stick for the amount of good works to prove being born again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nehemiah6 View Post
    I believe the point he is making -- which is quite valid -- is that if there are no good works in a person's life, then it is evidence that they are not truly saved. Making a profession without any change in one's life, or without any action, is merely an empty profession. This is the point that James has raised. Actions speak louder than words.

    If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? (James 2:15,16).
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    For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
    Romans 6:14

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    Senior Member DiscipleDave's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
    Dave....the day you equated yourself to a prophet
    Which God made me, not that i attained it myself, but God made me who i am. And where in Scriptures does it teach or imply that if a person claims to be what God made him is sinful? Don't say pride either, because i never, ever came in here proclaiming that i was a prophet, but answered the question presented to me honestly when i was asked if i was a prophet, again no sin there either.

    Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
    ]Dave....the day you equated yourself to a prophet and said Jesus would call you by your CC name and reference your words in judgment against the lost ended any and all credibility you have with me as being from God..
    So your method of determining if a prophet is who he/she says they are is based on what YOU believe personally and not what the Scriptures teach how you can tell a false prophet from a real one, that is what you are saying. You deem me false, not because i have said anything contrary to any Scriptures, but you deem me false because i said something that YOU don't believe. Who made YOU the judge to determine who is and who is not a prophet? Do you think God would approve of judging another based on mere personal opinions or would approve a person judging according to the Word of God?
    So i have spoke with God in conversations many times, seen and spoke with Angels of God, had many visions of the future, and dreams of the future, understand mysteries of the Bible, but because i said something that you don't agree with, you testify to everyone here, that i am false. How do you think God will respond to that, if i am Truly His chosen servant to reveal His Truths to a generation that He already told me, would refuse it? Do you think He would approve or disaprove?

    Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
    ...the bible does not teach faith plus works to gain, keep, facilitate salvation......it is clear it is by faith through grace void of human effort, merit, works and or obeyance to any law.....
    And you are still misunderstanding what i teach. FAITH ONLY can a get a person Saved. You seem to fail to grasp that Getting Saved, and what a person must do once they ARE Saved, are two different requirements. Getting Saved only requires Faith in Jesus. Believing that He is the Son of God. Being Saved is the reason the rest of the New Testament was written.

    Think about it, if the only thing required for one to Get Saved and be Saved, is Faith ONLY, then there would be no need for 95 percent of the New Testament. Would not have been enough to merely put down in Word the verses required for one to Get Saved, then there is no need for all the other verses which teach what a person must DO now that they ARE Saved. But we have 100% of the New Testament, because it teaches us what a person must do to Get Saved and also plainly teaches what we must DO once we are Saved. For some reason it seems you unable to distinguish between what is required for one to Get Saved and what is required for one once they have already been Saved.
    Getting Saved requires NO WORKS whatsoever, it is a free gift, and not one person deserves it.
    Being Saved requires that we Keep His Commandments, and those Commandments are 1) Believe in Jesus AND 2) Love One Another. That is what is required once a person accepts the free gift of Salvation.
    Scriptures teach those who Fail to Keep His Commandments, that is to say they fail to believe on Jesus or Love One Another, they do not know the Truth nor do they know Jesus Christ. Do you believe the Scriptures that teach these things or do you have an interpretation that will change these verses to mean something other that what they say?

    Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
    It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that BELIEVE<----NO WORKS mentioned.
    True, again, this is for a person to GET SAVED.

    Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
    ...and JAMES does not contradict that nor does it contradict PAUL..
    James is teaching to people who are already Saved, NOT teaching to get people Saved. What James teaches, it to those who have already accepted Jesus as their Savior and Lord. James is not teaching things to try to get unsaved to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord. Again you seem to misunderstand the differences between Getting Saved, and Being Saved. Those tho things are entirely different one from the other, and Both require different things.
    A person does not have to Keep His Commandments in order to GET Saved. A person can Get Saved by merely having Faith that Jesus is the Son of God. But after that free gift is given to a person, then a different set of requirements come into play, AFTER a person Gets Saved, it is then that they are instructed to "Keep His Commandments". And His Commandments are to 1) Believe on Jesus (Faith) AND 2) Love One Another (Works). Do you understand?

    Getting Saved = Faith Only / Believing is enough / No Works required whatsoever / free gift from God / underserving.
    Being Saved = Faith AND Works / Keeping His Commandments / Believe on Jesus AND Love One Another / Faith + Works.
    Do you see the differences?

    Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
    ..We conclude a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law (works)
    This is TRUE, concerning how a person GETS Saved.


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    Senior Member BillG's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
    OK....I asked this yesterday and not one worker for would answer....how about you....

    Works of gold silver and precious stones indicate a saved, faithful servant of God so...how do you describe the following...

    Works of gold, silver and precious stones---->saved, faithful servant of GOD

    Works of wood, hay and stubble --->_____________________________ yet SAVED so as by fire.

    This verse alone blows this farce out of the water that one MUST have to BE SAVED....Salvation is a one off event with eternal results and based upon faith into the work of Christ

    WHAT about those who BELIEVE, TEACH and NOT DO the works or word and yet are called the LEAST in the KINGDOM....YET STILL IN THE KINGDOM

    So we have a saved child of God who has works of wood, hay and stubble that get burnt to a crisp, yet remain saved

    and those who teach and do not do yet STILL IN THE KINGDOM

    Explain this......
    Hi DC

    I often grasped onto the verses of being saved through the fire. Well is say grasped it was more of a faint hope.

    I have to be honest I don't actually know what works of wood, hay and stubble are.
    I just hoped my faith in Jesus would save me and it was faint at my best times.
    The problem I had was that of insecurity with God.

    I never used wood, hay and stubble as an excuse to sin.

    I would be interested to know what you and others think what is wood, hay and stubble is.
    Lord

    Help me to be the person my dog thinks I am.

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    Senior Member dcontroversal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscipleDave View Post
    Which God made me, not that i attained it myself, but God made me who i am. And where in Scriptures does it teach or imply that if a person claims to be what God made him is sinful? Don't say pride either, because i never, ever came in here proclaiming that i was a prophet, but answered the question presented to me honestly when i was asked if i was a prophet, again no sin there either.



    So your method of determining if a prophet is who he/she says they are is based on what YOU believe personally and not what the Scriptures teach how you can tell a false prophet from a real one, that is what you are saying. You deem me false, not because i have said anything contrary to any Scriptures, but you deem me false because i said something that YOU don't believe. Who made YOU the judge to determine who is and who is not a prophet? Do you think God would approve of judging another based on mere personal opinions or would approve a person judging according to the Word of God?
    So i have spoke with God in conversations many times, seen and spoke with Angels of God, had many visions of the future, and dreams of the future, understand mysteries of the Bible, but because i said something that you don't agree with, you testify to everyone here, that i am false. How do you think God will respond to that, if i am Truly His chosen servant to reveal His Truths to a generation that He already told me, would refuse it? Do you think He would approve or disaprove?



    And you are still misunderstanding what i teach. FAITH ONLY can a get a person Saved. You seem to fail to grasp that Getting Saved, and what a person must do once they ARE Saved, are two different requirements. Getting Saved only requires Faith in Jesus. Believing that He is the Son of God. Being Saved is the reason the rest of the New Testament was written.

    Think about it, if the only thing required for one to Get Saved and be Saved, is Faith ONLY, then there would be no need for 95 percent of the New Testament. Would not have been enough to merely put down in Word the verses required for one to Get Saved, then there is no need for all the other verses which teach what a person must DO now that they ARE Saved. But we have 100% of the New Testament, because it teaches us what a person must do to Get Saved and also plainly teaches what we must DO once we are Saved. For some reason it seems you unable to distinguish between what is required for one to Get Saved and what is required for one once they have already been Saved.
    Getting Saved requires NO WORKS whatsoever, it is a free gift, and not one person deserves it.
    Being Saved requires that we Keep His Commandments, and those Commandments are 1) Believe in Jesus AND 2) Love One Another. That is what is required once a person accepts the free gift of Salvation.
    Scriptures teach those who Fail to Keep His Commandments, that is to say they fail to believe on Jesus or Love One Another, they do not know the Truth nor do they know Jesus Christ. Do you believe the Scriptures that teach these things or do you have an interpretation that will change these verses to mean something other that what they say?



    True, again, this is for a person to GET SAVED.



    James is teaching to people who are already Saved, NOT teaching to get people Saved. What James teaches, it to those who have already accepted Jesus as their Savior and Lord. James is not teaching things to try to get unsaved to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord. Again you seem to misunderstand the differences between Getting Saved, and Being Saved. Those tho things are entirely different one from the other, and Both require different things.
    A person does not have to Keep His Commandments in order to GET Saved. A person can Get Saved by merely having Faith that Jesus is the Son of God. But after that free gift is given to a person, then a different set of requirements come into play, AFTER a person Gets Saved, it is then that they are instructed to "Keep His Commandments". And His Commandments are to 1) Believe on Jesus (Faith) AND 2) Love One Another (Works). Do you understand?

    Getting Saved = Faith Only / Believing is enough / No Works required whatsoever / free gift from God / underserving.
    Being Saved = Faith AND Works / Keeping His Commandments / Believe on Jesus AND Love One Another / Faith + Works.
    Do you see the differences?



    This is TRUE, concerning how a person GETS Saved.


    ^i^

    ††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

    DiscipleDave
    Saved is saved....there is no such thing as getting saved and then finishing the deal by works...Galatians 1 and 3.....end of story....salvation is not progressive....it is a ONE time event based upon faith and is eternal...you do not get half saved and then finish the deal by what you do.....sorry...the bible does not teach that.....
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    Senior Member dcontroversal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by BillG View Post
    Hi DC

    I often grasped onto the verses of being saved through the fire. Well is say grasped it was more of a faint hope.

    I have to be honest I don't actually know what works of wood, hay and stubble are.
    I just hoped my faith in Jesus would save me and it was faint at my best times.
    The problem I had was that of insecurity with God.

    I never used wood, hay and stubble as an excuse to sin.

    I would be interested to know what you and others think what is wood, hay and stubble is.
    Works of wood, hay and stubble = a worldly believer who was not faithful.....and saved yet so as by fire would have a modern equivalent of by the skin of their teeth......saved and that is all they have..........like the Prodigal....a son throughout the whole process, and he wasted his inheritance upon riotous living, but was still received as a son.....
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    Senior Member Nehemiah6's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by UnderGrace View Post
    Do you have a measuring stick for the amount of good works to prove being born again?
    Sure. Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. (James 4:17)

    What James is saying (in modern parlance) is that "Talk is cheap" and "Put your money where your mouth is". At the time when James was writing (and to this day) there are people who say that they have been justified by God's grace and are saved. But there is no external evidence. It is not the quantity of good works that James is talking about, but it is whether or not those who say they are Christians ACT when they have the means and the opportunity to do good. That is what James 4:17 is teaching. That is also what the apostle John was teaching in his first epistle (1 John 3:16-18):

    16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

    17
    But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?


    18
    My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
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    Senior Member DiscipleDave's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by UnderGrace View Post
    Well if I am reading this correctly then you have accomplished a lot because you have done it.
    You have read it incorrectly, As i stated over and over and over again, i could not have done it without Jesus. Please reread what i wrote and try to see every time i stated that. Or are you just causing strife? God knows.

    Quote Originally Posted by UnderGrace View Post
    My response, I have the righteousness of Christ Jesus and because of His righteousness I grow in His grace and learn about His love more completely each day, so that sin has no dominion over me
    if you knowingly and willingly commit a sin, how is that not dominion over you? Those who slaves to sin, are those who continue to commit that sin over and over and over again.
    Any person who continues to commit the same sin over and over and over again and can't cease from that sin, or worse yet desires not to cease from that sin, how are they not in bondage to that sin?

    Jesus has freed me from my sins, it is by and through HIM that "i" overcame the temptations of satan. Did you notice who i gave the credit to, even though i used the word "i" above? This seems to be what you have missed in my previous post. All it seems you saw was the word "i" and thought i was giving the credit to self. please reread what i wrote.

    Quote Originally Posted by UnderGrace View Post
    For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.
    Romans 6:14
    We are not under the law (OT) couple verses down it teaches us who your Master is, that is to whom you obey?

    Rom_6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

    Did he say this to the Unsaved or to those who are Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by UnderGrace View Post
    And to answer your question, I do not battle my sin I focus on Jesus and He has promised me to win by His grace in me
    even Jesus battled against sin, and He used the Word to fight against satan. To bad you do not battle against your temptations, that must mean you do not seek the help of Jesus to fight them. How will you cease from them, if you do not try to battle them. Oh, wait, you believe the doctrine that teaches you don't have to, that Faith ONLY is enough, right?

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    Senior Member 7seasrekeyed's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by PHart View Post
    Me too.

    I honestly believe the day is coming when those of us who hold this doctrine will be martyred. I'm not a prophet. I don't know when, but I just sense that the present hostility towards what we believe will spill out into open violence towards us one day. Hopefully, not in my lifetime. I'm beginning to see how all this is the spirit of anti-christ at work preparing the world for the Man of Perdition to appear.

    some of the animosity is apparent right here in this thread

    being called delusional and other slurs because one warns and repeats the NT warnings, or presents a different interpretation, is a sample of how easy it seems to be for some to start being nasty to other believers...although truth be told, I am not quite convinced that some of these actually do view those with a different understanding as believers

    I seem to recall in another thread where the accusation of not being saved was lobbed

    it wasn't at me, but you do see this from time to time. that and the name calling
    Last edited by 7seasrekeyed; 1 Week Ago at 04:06 PM.
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    Senior Member DiscipleDave's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Originally Posted by DiscipleDave
    Believing AND Loving One Another, is what is required for one to be Saved, unless of coarse you are unable to Love one another, such as death bed confessions.




    Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
    No actually having faith in Jesus and acknowledging said faith is what is required for salvation..
    True, it is what is required for one to GET SAVED.


    Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
    ..which is a one event with eternal results.....
    True, GETTING SAVED is a one time event, it happens ONCE, not daily. That Gift is given ONCE to a person, on a particular day, the moment they get Saved. ONE TIME EVENT. At this event, their name is written in the Book of Life, they are Saved because of that ONE TIME EVENT of GETTING Saved. Now stat with me here, let us move past that ONE time event, and discuss what that person must DO after they GOT SAVED, After they got the free Gift from God, After they have been cleaned and washed white as snow. After they have the righteousness of Jesus Christ put upon them and they have been forgiven of all their past sins. Let us now discuss and talk about AFTER that day what a person MUST do, can we concentrate on that?

    Now talking about AFTER that day a person is written in the Book of Life, let us talk about the Scriptures that plainly teach a person can be blotted out of the Book of Life.
    YOu see there is a false teaching today that teaches if your name is written in the Book of Life, that it can't be removed EVER, yet there are Scriptures that teach that a person can be blotted out of the Book of Life. If then Scriptures teaches a person can be removed from the Book of Life, then the teaching that a person can't be removed from the Book of Life has to be False.
    Men teach you can't be blotted out of the Book of Life once your name is written there.
    Scriptures teach a person can be blotted out of the Book of Life AFTER their name is written there.
    Who do you think i should believe? Men or God?

    Your name is written in the Book of Life the very moment you GET Saved.
    Your name can be blotted out of the Book of Life depending on what you willingly choose to DO after you Got Saved.

    You desire so badly to banish me, don't you? Waiting for the day i slip up just once, so you can feel good about doing it.

    ^i^

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    Senior Member UnderGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Yes Nehemiah6 all good and true, but how much or how little to prove being born again?

    I am not speaking to the value, purpose and need for good works as part of the life of a believer, only on how many, how much, how long proves salvation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nehemiah6 View Post
    Sure. Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. (James 4:17)

    What James is saying (in modern parlance) is that "Talk is cheap" and "Put your money where your mouth is". At the time when James was writing (and to this day) there are people who say that they have been justified by God's grace and are saved. But there is no external evidence. It is not the quantity of good works that James is talking about, but it is whether or not those who say they are Christians ACT when they have the means and the opportunity to do good. That is what James 4:17 is teaching. That is also what the apostle John was teaching in his first epistle (1 John 3:16-18):

    16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

    17
    But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?


    18
    My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
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    For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
    Romans 6:14

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    Senior Member UnderGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Not causing strife, people who cause strife have selfish ambition, praise Jesus I have a very fulfilling life

    and do not use or need CC to feed some empty place in my soul or some emotional need

    Perhaps my frame of reference is different, I did not accomplish anything with regards to victory over sin, it was all Jesus because of His victory.

    Perhaps we are saying the same thing perhaps we are not

    With regards to eternal life and salvation what is needed is a faith/belief in/on/towards the personal work of Jesus for each of us, the work He accomplished by His death and resurrection on behalf of each of us individually.

    So with regards to the gift of eternal life, secure forever, NO works involved.




    Quote Originally Posted by DiscipleDave View Post
    You have read it incorrectly, As i stated over and over and over again, i could not have done it without Jesus. Please reread what i wrote and try to see every time i stated that. Or are you just causing strife? God knows.



    if you knowingly and willingly commit a sin, how is that not dominion over you? Those who slaves to sin, are those who continue to commit that sin over and over and over again.
    Any person who continues to commit the same sin over and over and over again and can't cease from that sin, or worse yet desires not to cease from that sin, how are they not in bondage to that sin?

    Jesus has freed me from my sins, it is by and through HIM that "i" overcame the temptations of satan. Did you notice who i gave the credit to, even though i used the word "i" above? This seems to be what you have missed in my previous post. All it seems you saw was the word "i" and thought i was giving the credit to self. please reread what i wrote.



    We are not under the law (OT) couple verses down it teaches us who your Master is, that is to whom you obey?

    Rom_6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

    Did he say this to the Unsaved or to those who are Christians?



    even Jesus battled against sin, and He used the Word to fight against satan. To bad you do not battle against your temptations, that must mean you do not seek the help of Jesus to fight them. How will you cease from them, if you do not try to battle them. Oh, wait, you believe the doctrine that teaches you don't have to, that Faith ONLY is enough, right?

    ^i^

    ††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

    DiscipleDave
    For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
    Romans 6:14

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    Senior Member DiscipleDave's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Originally Posted by DiscipleDave

    Believing AND Loving One Another, is what is required for one to be Saved, unless of coarse you are unable to Love one another, such as death bed confessions.


    Quote Originally Posted by BillG View Post
    Can I just ask when you are able to love one another do you mean fellow believers?
    Did Jesus love only those who loved Him back, or did Jesus Love Everyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillG View Post
    The reason I ask this is because of the following.

    I had an alcoholic mother, beat me, rejected me and threw me out when I was 14.
    Know you not that satan had her? If it were not for satan, she would have loved you, and cared for you and would never have thought of kicking you out. We all would do well to know who the enemy is. The enemy was not your mother, but satan who had your mother in his grips.

    Quote Originally Posted by BillG View Post
    Was fostered by a Christian couple.
    Then spent the 5 years with them, during which my foster dad sexually abused me.
    So satan had his paws on your foster dad too. What do you hate your foster dad for what he did? Know you not that satan has got a hold of him, feeding him lies, and making him think about things that he should not be thinking about? Was your foster dad that enemy or was the True enemy satan who had him bound?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillG View Post
    So for 19 years of my life nothing but abuse and hatred towards me.
    Does satan hate that which is good? Yes. If then you are good soul, he is going to hate you, yes? He is going to try to corrupt that goodness in you, by treating you terribly. Darkness will always attack the light. But in the end light will overcome all darkness. But not now, but only then.

    Quote Originally Posted by BillG View Post
    So as you can imagine I was unable to love them, even as a believer.
    You were unable to love them, because you failed to see who the TRUE enemy was. Your Mom, and your foster dad were not the enemy. satan who had them bound, was the enemy. If satan wasn't present with your Mom, she would have loved you dearly. If satan was not present with your foster dad, he would have loved you the right way and nourished you and not abused you. Therefore the enemy is not your Mom, or your foster Dad, but satan who controlled them. If people would have this knowledge they would not be so quick to hate the people instead of hating the one who has bound those people.

    Quote Originally Posted by BillG View Post
    In fact I would say I hated them.
    You hated your Mother for kicking you out at 14, how do you know if she didn't kick you out then she would have accidentally killed you the next year? Do you know?

    Your Mom had some real problems, She was addicted to alcohol, verbally abusive, never did anything wrong, blamed you for many things, sinking into a pit that she knows will kill her, all the while satan whispering to her continually "Your life would get better if you kick her out?" satan knows also that if she does, that he would whisper to you "Your mother hates you, that is why she kicked you out" and you believe his lies, and therefore hate her. People, wake up, the enemy is not people, it is satan.

    Quote Originally Posted by BillG View Post
    When we talk about works to me the big one is forgiveness and forgiving. Now that is so so hard.
    Forgive as I have forgiven you.
    How do i love those who hate me?

    These things i force myself to think upon.

    1) Jesus died for that person. Am i to hate someone who Jesus loves?
    2) i feel sorry for that person, not hate. satan has them bound, they are in bondage to him.
    3) Whatever i think about that person i think about Christ. Whatsoever you do to the least of these, you do to me.
    4) Love those that hate you
    5) Jesus COMMANDED me to Love One Another.

    When someone does me awefully wrong, i think on these above things. i hate no one. i hate satan and his demons, i love and hate no person, because the Spirit has taught me to remember those above things in that list.

    Without satan, your Mom would have been the best Mom in the world.
    Without satan, you foster Dad would have been the best Foster Dad in the world.
    Know the True enemy, it is not people that you are suppose to Love.

    Quote Originally Posted by BillG View Post
    To cut long story short. God led me through the process of forgiveness over many years.
    My mother and I have a loving relationship and I actually prayed over and with my sexual abuser on his death bed.
    Love that, a sad story turned Good.

    Quote Originally Posted by BillG View Post
    To me a work is not just loving but it's also about forgiving. That's true love.
    Forgiving takes a lot of work

    Quote Originally Posted by BillG View Post
    So I am not wishing to trap you or set you up.

    What do you think would have happened to me if I died not loving my mum and sexual abuser?
    Does it matter what i think or what i believe? NOT in the slightest. But what does Scriptures teach concerning those who do not forgive or do not Love One Another? That!! believe, and not what people teach.

    i have asked many times, to those who believe Once Saved Always Saved, questions that they DO NOT answer, because if they did, they would see the error of their thinking and would have to change what they believe to line up with Scriptures and because they are unwilling to change they merely do not answer the questions i present to them. Here is one below.


    Mat_6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: Mat_6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

    Tell me, if a person who is SAVED, and many years later that person is brutally raped, and that person even after many years after does not forgive that person for raping them, is that person still SAVED? How then can a person be Saved and NOT FORGIVEN? Can a person be Saved and at the same time NOT FORGIVEN? Can you answer these questions, those that believe OSAS?

    What men teach is corruptible. What God teaches is TRUTH.

    Anyone who does not forgive others, the Father in Heaven will NOT Forgive them, and it does not matter what they claim with their mouths, that they are Saved, washed by His Blood, under His Righteousness, that does not make void this inspired by God verse that plainly teaches if you do not forgive others, YOU will NOT be forgiven. PERIOD!!!

    Scriptures also teaches this same thing about those who Hate others.

    ^i^

    ††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

    DiscipleDave
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by UnderGrace View Post
    Yes Nehemiah6 all good and true, but how much or how little to prove being born again?

    I am not speaking to the value, purpose and need for good works as part of the life of a believer, only on how many, how much, how long proves salvation?
    You are mistaking quantity for quality. That widow who gave her whole living to God did just one good work which was recognized by Christ as proof of her salvation. So just one act of obedience (as pointed out by James) such as Abraham offering Isaac to God proves genuine salvation. Or Rahab offering assistance to those spies proved that she was justified.

    By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace. (Heb 11:31)
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by UnderGrace View Post

    So with regards to the gift of eternal life, secure forever, NO works involved.
    And what do the Faith Only believers teach?
    Do not the Faith ONLY with NO WORKS teach the very same thing you say above.

    Can you explain to me the following verse?

    1Jn_3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.


    Can a person who Got Saved many years ago, but now hates his brother for this or that reason, still have eternal life abiding in him? Contrary to this very verse? Answer me.

    Do you claim to be Saved right now, and if you were brutally raped and you HATE that guy, tell me does eternal life still abide in you? Do you not see the error in that thinking. Does not Scriptures teach you the error of that thinking, yet you continue to believe as you do, which is contrary to the very Scriptures which you claim you believe? Why is that?

    Scriptures teach anyone who hates another, eternal life does NOT abide in them.
    YOU teach anyone who hates another, as long as they are SAVED, eternal life DOES still abide in you, making void the Word of God to fit into your own doctrine. How is that not evil in the sight of God?

    Scriptures are TRUE, those who hate another, regardless if they claim to be Saved or not, does NOT have eternal life abiding in them. That is what Scriptures teach and should opened your eyes from being blind and see that you believe a false doctrine, but what? You choose to remain blind because you are unwilling to change what you believe, because you have believed your whole life what you believe now.

    Scriptures are TRUE, Anyone, and i say ANYONE who hates another person, does NOT have eternal life in them, and it doesn't matter what you believe, it is not going to change that TRUTH.

    ^i^

    ††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

    DiscipleDave

    When you do it to the least of these, you do it to Jesus


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    Senior Member Desertsrose's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by BillG View Post
    Hi DCI often grasped onto the verses of being saved through the fire. Well is say grasped it was more of a faint hope.I have to be honest I don't actually know what works of wood, hay and stubble are.I just hoped my faith in Jesus would save me and it was faint at my best times.The problem I had was that of insecurity with God.I never used wood, hay and stubble as an excuse to sin.I would be interested to know what you and others think what is wood, hay and stubble is.
    Just my thoughts, I haven't really studied this yet.


    My mind immediately goes to those who call Jesus Lord and yet Jesus says away with you, I know you not.


    What was wrong is that they said they knew the Lord, but what did they do? They did their own thing like healing and the like without doing God's will. They lacked obedience. They went off and decided to have their own ministry, even if what they were good things to do.


    Jesus said we could do many great things, but without love they are just a clanging symbol. People come up with ways to serve the Lord and He's not telling them to do those things.


    I think of the Pharisees doing outward signs of being godly, but Jesus accused them of neglecting the weightier matters of the law like mercy, justice and faith.


    So these people hear and begin to build on Jesus, but they aren't building as He has told them to.


    God bless you, Bill!
    Ezekiel 18:23 Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

  16. #35776


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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by BillG View Post
    Hi DC

    I often grasped onto the verses of being saved through the fire. Well is say grasped it was more of a faint hope.

    I have to be honest I don't actually know what works of wood, hay and stubble are.
    I just hoped my faith in Jesus would save me and it was faint at my best times.
    The problem I had was that of insecurity with God.

    I never used wood, hay and stubble as an excuse to sin.

    I would be interested to know what you and others think what is wood, hay and stubble is.

    Works of wood, hay, and stubble are related to testing our works to see if they are worthy of heavenly rewards, such as CROWNS. BTW, Salvation is NOT a Reward, it is a Free Gift by HIS GRACE. So the works of wood, hay, and stubble, are those we did for the Wrong Motive, because the ONLY PURE MOTIVE IS LOVE FOR HIM and others.

    If you did the works to look good to your friends, IT IS WORTHLESS TO GOD and gets no Reward.

    If you did the works only because you feel you have to, IT IS WORTHLESS TO GOD and gets no Reward.

    If you did the works to try to earn part of your Salvation, IT IS WORTHLESS TO GOD and gets no Reward.

    If you did the works for pride's sake, so you can pat yoursef on the back, IT IS WORTHLESS TO GOD and gets no Reward.

    If you did the works only to earn money, IT IS WORTHLESS TO GOD and gets no Reward.


    Matthew 7:22-23 (CSBBible)
    22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, drive out demons in your name, and do many miracles in your name?'
    23 Then I will announce to them, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you lawbreakers!'


    That is a reference to that Inner, Personnel, LOVE Relationship with Jesus Christ as LORD, meaning Master.

    Those HE was talking about did everything for the WRONG MOTIVE.

    t t t
    Titus 2:13
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscipleDave View Post

    John 14:15 If ye love Me, keep My commandments

    So those who Love Jesus, MUST keep His Commandments, yes or no?

    John 15:10 If ye keep My commandments, ye shall abide in My love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in His love.

    So then, those who keep His Commandments are they that abide in His Love. Do you believe this verse. Yes or no?
    So then, those who do NOT keep His Commandment are NOT abiding in His Love, correct, yes or no?


    I John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

    Again, yet another verse that plainly teaches those who Keep His Commandments abide in Him, those who do NOT keep His commandments, even though they say they know Him, are liars, and they do not know the TRUTH. Do you believe this verse, yes or no?

    Who are they that abide in Him according to Scriptures?

    1Jn_3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.


    Makes since, because we know that Scriptures teach whoever you choose to obey is your master, if you choose to obey sin, then guess who your master is.

    Revelations 22:14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    Who has right to the TREE OF LIFE? Those who keep His Commandments.

    Do you think a person can claim to be SAVED and NOT keep His Commandments, answer Yes or No?

    Scriptures plainly teach that those who Keep His Commandments have the right to the TREE OF LIFE. Therefore those who fail to keep His Commandments will NOT have the right to the TREE of LIFE, correct? Or do you think something contrary to that statement?

    So then the question is, What are His Commandments, that we are commanded to keep and commanded that we MUST do in order to be Saved (Right to the Tree of Life)?

    Do we believe what men teach that "His Commandments" are the 10 commandments? Or should we believe Scriptures which plainly tells us what "His Commandments" are? Believe Scriptures not what men teach.

    Now pay attention here, i am about to reveal to you the Scriptures which plainly says and teaches what His Commandments Are, something that we MUST do in order to be Saved. Pay attention because those who believe false doctrines will refuse to hear these Scriptures, they will either ignore them entirely, make them void, or interpret them away, all so they do not have to give up the false doctrines that they hold on to for dear life, again, pay attention, these are from the Word of God, from the Apostle John himself, who ate, walked with God, And heard from God himself, inspired by the Holy Ghost to write exactly as he has written for us to read today. Pay attention here it is.

    1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

    So whatever they ask in prayer they receive from God because why? Because they Keep His Commandments. Do you ask and receive for whatever you ask for? Maybe because you do NOT keep His Commandments, you do NOT get everything you ask for from God.

    1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. And this is His commandment, That we should 1) believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, AND 2) love one another, as he gave us commandment.

    There you have it, straight from the Holy Scriptures. Those who are TRUE Christians, and are TRULY Saved will Keep His Commandments, as does Scriptures plainly teaches. And what are His Commandments according to Scriptures, they are 1) Believe in Jesus and 2) Love One Another.
    So then believing in Jesus = Faith
    So then Loving One Another = Works
    So then Faith and Works go hand in hand, one without the Other. Those who Truly Keep His Commandments DO BOTH, because Scriptures plainly just told us that BOTH is His Commandments. Woe to those who teach Faith without works can save you, they are deceived and do not believe these Scriptures presented above. Those who are Saved, Keep His Commandments. His Commandments are to 1) believe in Jesus (Faith) AND 2) Love One Another (Works) Woe to those who Believe Faith only can save you. And woe to those who believe Works only can save you. These both are blind and ignorant to the TRUTH of Scriptures. Scriptures plainly teach Faith + Works = Saved. But those who believe otherwise are blind and will not grasp the Truth of these Scriptures, because if they did, that would mean they would have to give up sinning, and that is just not going to happen to a generation who loves to continue to live in sin, day after day after day.

    Who does Jesus dwell inside of? Scriptures plainly teach that Jesus dwells in those who Keep His Commandments, and what are His Commandments. believe in Jesus AND Love One Another.

    1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.



    Woe to this generation who claim that they are Saved, and yet do NOT Keep His Commandments. Scriptures are True, those who claim to be Saved and live in sin, do lie and do not know the TRUTH, even when it is presented to them, Cursed Children. The Sheppard calls, and they refuse to come to the light, because they like where they are at in their life, they love to sin, and are not willing to get rid of that sin that so easily besets them.
    Scriptures is the Sheppard, but who in this generation hearkens to and believes ALL of the Scriptures?

    ^i^

    ††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

    DiscipleDave
    You approach the scripture with the same piety and self-righteousness of the pharisees. In another post you stated this;

    Your words:
    "Believing AND Loving One Another",
    is what is required for one to be Saved, unless of coarse you are unable to Love one another, such as death bed confessions.

    Going on your knees and crying out to God; "save me for I am a sinner", is what will save you. Believing AND Loving One Another, is a social gospel focused on me and my wonderful good deeds, this is a false gospel; you cannot merit your own salvation by "believing and loving one another", a false gospel; and the idea that someone on their "death bed", needs to be near someone to love them to be saved is faulty reasoning. By the way are you Catholic, because this sounds like Catholic dogma.

    Never have I heard a gospel like this preached from the pulpit. We are saved by faith in Jesus Christ apart from works.

    "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not by works, so that no one can boast." Epheasians2:8,9

    True Gospel
    dcontroversal and UnderGrace like this.

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    Senior Member Rosemaryx's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscipleDave View Post
    Did Jesus love only those who loved Him back, or did Jesus Love Everyone?



    Know you not that satan had her? If it were not for satan, she would have loved you, and cared for you and would never have thought of kicking you out. We all would do well to know who the enemy is. The enemy was not your mother, but satan who had your mother in his grips.



    So satan had his paws on your foster dad too. What do you hate your foster dad for what he did? Know you not that satan has got a hold of him, feeding him lies, and making him think about things that he should not be thinking about? Was your foster dad that enemy or was the True enemy satan who had him bound?



    Does satan hate that which is good? Yes. If then you are good soul, he is going to hate you, yes? He is going to try to corrupt that goodness in you, by treating you terribly. Darkness will always attack the light. But in the end light will overcome all darkness. But not now, but only then.



    You were unable to love them, because you failed to see who the TRUE enemy was. Your Mom, and your foster dad were not the enemy. satan who had them bound, was the enemy. If satan wasn't present with your Mom, she would have loved you dearly. If satan was not present with your foster dad, he would have loved you the right way and nourished you and not abused you. Therefore the enemy is not your Mom, or your foster Dad, but satan who controlled them. If people would have this knowledge they would not be so quick to hate the people instead of hating the one who has bound those people.



    You hated your Mother for kicking you out at 14, how do you know if she didn't kick you out then she would have accidentally killed you the next year? Do you know?

    Your Mom had some real problems, She was addicted to alcohol, verbally abusive, never did anything wrong, blamed you for many things, sinking into a pit that she knows will kill her, all the while satan whispering to her continually "Your life would get better if you kick her out?" satan knows also that if she does, that he would whisper to you "Your mother hates you, that is why she kicked you out" and you believe his lies, and therefore hate her. People, wake up, the enemy is not people, it is satan.



    How do i love those who hate me?

    These things i force myself to think upon.

    1) Jesus died for that person. Am i to hate someone who Jesus loves?
    2) i feel sorry for that person, not hate. satan has them bound, they are in bondage to him.
    3) Whatever i think about that person i think about Christ. Whatsoever you do to the least of these, you do to me.
    4) Love those that hate you
    5) Jesus COMMANDED me to Love One Another.

    When someone does me awefully wrong, i think on these above things. i hate no one. i hate satan and his demons, i love and hate no person, because the Spirit has taught me to remember those above things in that list.

    Without satan, your Mom would have been the best Mom in the world.
    Without satan, you foster Dad would have been the best Foster Dad in the world.
    Know the True enemy, it is not people that you are suppose to Love.



    Love that, a sad story turned Good.



    Forgiving takes a lot of work



    Does it matter what i think or what i believe? NOT in the slightest. But what does Scriptures teach concerning those who do not forgive or do not Love One Another? That!! believe, and not what people teach.

    i have asked many times, to those who believe Once Saved Always Saved, questions that they DO NOT answer, because if they did, they would see the error of their thinking and would have to change what they believe to line up with Scriptures and because they are unwilling to change they merely do not answer the questions i present to them. Here is one below.


    Mat_6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: Mat_6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

    Tell me, if a person who is SAVED, and many years later that person is brutally raped, and that person even after many years after does not forgive that person for raping them, is that person still SAVED? How then can a person be Saved and NOT FORGIVEN? Can a person be Saved and at the same time NOT FORGIVEN? Can you answer these questions, those that believe OSAS?

    What men teach is corruptible. What God teaches is TRUTH.

    Anyone who does not forgive others, the Father in Heaven will NOT Forgive them, and it does not matter what they claim with their mouths, that they are Saved, washed by His Blood, under His Righteousness, that does not make void this inspired by God verse that plainly teaches if you do not forgive others, YOU will NOT be forgiven. PERIOD!!!

    Scriptures also teaches this same thing about those who Hate others.

    ^i^

    ††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

    DiscipleDave
    Hi DiscipleDave...I just want to tell you I have learned alot from this post of yours with answers you having giving Bill...My eyes are opened more to the evil one...I see a post on my FB tonight of my niece who is supporting the same sex marriage, my first response was anger, it really annoyed me and even put me off her for a while...I did not say anything to her because she was posting to a page and the truth be known we don`t talk as in we are not close, but then when it was eating me away, I asked Jesus to teach me how to love like He does, I asked Him to forgive me for the thoughts that were rising up inside of me, I prayed to God and cried for her, I did not know what even to pray...So from your answers to Bill, it has taught me that it is the evil one who is the enemy and I am to look at all those who are lost that it is the enemy and not the person...I am going to ponder this tonight as I close, there is a great lesson in your post, thank you ...xox...
    7seasrekeyed likes this.
    PSALM 107:20 He sends His word and heals me and rescues me from the pit and destruction.

  19. #35779
    Senior Member stonesoffire's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
    Nice twist, not what you teach...I have seen you say not less than a few times that YOU MUST MAINTAIN FAITH....puts it square on your shoulders and not JESUS.....try again
    Quote Originally Posted by DiscipleDave View Post
    If a person goes to prayer and asks for forgiveness, How is that not a WORK?
    If a person OBEYS the promptings of the Holy Spirit, How is that not a WORK?
    If a person LOVES others, how is that done without any WORKS?
    If a person is drawn to the Lord, how is FOLLOWING not a WORK?

    Believing in Jesus is NOT a Work, that is Faith.
    But ANYTHING you DO, is a WORK.

    Praying = Work
    Loving others = Work
    Confessing = Work
    Repenting = Work
    Reading the Word = Work
    Studying the Word = Work
    Going to Church = Work
    Helping those in need = Work
    Feeding the Hungry = Work
    Clothing the naked = Work
    Visiting the elderly and those in prison = Work
    Witnessing about Jesus = Work
    Testifying about Jesus = Work
    Praising God = Work

    All these things are things that YOU DO, and they are Works. Those who think and believe that believing in Jesus is enough, and that none of these Works are required believe a lie that satan teaches.
    Scriptures plainly teach those who TRULY believe in Jesus will DO what He says, and He says, and even COMMANDS us to Love One Another, which is nothing but Works. Woe to this generation who teaches Faith Only is enough, they believe that believing in Jesus is all that is required and therefore need not any works at all, how will they escape His wrath when Scriptures plainly teaches over and over and over again that Faith AND Works go hand in hand not one without the Other.
    Those who teach Believing only is enough, lie.
    Those who teach Works only is enough, lie.
    Those who teach Believing in Jesus and OBEYING the Scriptures, which is nothing but Works, will be accepted with Him.

    Faith - Works = Dead : This is Scriptural
    Works - Faith = Dead : This is Scriptural
    Faith + Works = Life Everlasting : This is Scriptural

    The Parable of Jesus separating the Goats from the Sheep is this.
    The Goats believed in Jesus calling Him "Lord" but they had no works at all, they did not Love One Another.
    The Sheep believed in Jesus calling Him "Lord" and their belief was backed up by their works, they did Love One Another.
    It is plainly written that no man can call Jesus "Lord" but by the Holy Ghost. Both Goats and Sheep in the parable called Jesus "Lord" all of you would do well to take heed to this parable. Those who believe that believing in Jesus is all that you need to do, are no different than the goats in the Parable. Those who believe and have works are no different than the the sheep in the Parable.
    Which one would you say you are? Goats which believed in Jesus but had no works at all, or the Sheep which believed in Jesus and also had works?

    ^i^

    ††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

    DiscipleDave
    The Sons do because of who they are of. And with joy.

    And the iPad has attached dcons post again. Lol
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    Mat 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

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    Senior Member joefizz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by joefizz View Post
    or the better question why wouldn't someone who is saved "not" one to do works for Jesus?
    oops I meant "want" not "one,I am tired today from a double shift,sorry about that.
    We are all family in God's eyes,so please at least try to get along,sincerely, a child of God.

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