Not By Works

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Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
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0
Mat 4:17, "From that time יהושע began to proclaim and to say, “Repent, for the reign of the heavens has drawn near.”


1 Peter 4:17, "Because it is time for judgment to begin from the House of Yah. And if firstly from us, what is the end of those who do not obey the Good News of Yah?"

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Mar 28, 2016
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5I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." (1 Corinthians 5:5 NASB)

Click this link:https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1co/5/1/t_conc_1067005
Note Strong's word #2443 in the passage.

Paul is clearly saying he has decided to deliver this sinner in the Corinthian church over to satan for the destruction of his flesh SO THAT/ IN ORDER THAT (see link above) his spirit can be/will be/may be (take your pick) saved in the Day of Christ's second appearing, IWO, saved at the Judgement, not condemned with the lost. But OSAS says that would not be necessary for Paul to do because he is already irretrievably and irreversibly saved no matter what he does, or says, or thinks.

And we know this is a 'believer' that is being judged because of the simple fact that Paul has turned him over for judgment. He points out that it is only those in the church, not those outside of the church, that are to be judged this way:
Its not maybe, perhaps but always will be. In Christ, of Christ, through Christ His promises are yes and yes. Not maybe could be. All die not receiving the promise (Lazarus, come forth)

Destruction of the body of death the first death, every one born faces that., Not destruction of the new eternal spirit that could never die the second death. Christ came to pay the second death the pouring out of His Holy Spirit..

He of his own flesh made it clear it did not profit as if it was Spirit. His word is Spirit and creates spirit life.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
12,821
8,596
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5I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." (1 Corinthians 5:5 NASB)

Click this link:https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1co/5/1/t_conc_1067005
Note Strong's word #2443 in the passage.

Paul is clearly saying he has decided to deliver this sinner in the Corinthian church over to satan for the destruction of his flesh SO THAT/ IN ORDER THAT (see link above) his spirit can be/will be/may be (take your pick) saved in the Day of Christ's second appearing, IWO, saved at the Judgement, not condemned with the lost. But OSAS says that would not be necessary for Paul to do because he is already irretrievably and irreversibly saved no matter what he does, or says, or thinks.

And we know this is a 'believer' that is being judged because of the simple fact that Paul has turned him over for judgment. He points out that it is only those in the church, not those outside of the church, that are to be judged this way:


3For I...have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present.
12For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13But those who are outside, God judges.

And if you're still thinking this sinning fellow at Corinth is not a brother, but rather an unbeliever, consider this scripture concerning how to handle the misbehavior of anyone in the church at Thessalonica:

"14If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that person and do not associate with him, so that he will be put to shame. 15Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother." (2 Thessalonians 3:14-15 NASB)
You can repeat the same mantra over and over. It doesn't change anything. This man was NOT saved because Satan destroyed his flesh. Why you would want to give credit to that is beyond me.
This man is saved because he accepted the Gospel.

He was given over as a CONSEQUENCE of his behavior, and to rid the brethren of bad leaven. NOT to save him.

Frankly, it's a little disturbing to see you thinking Satan destroying his flesh is what saved him.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,967
4,585
113
. . .
So, if OSAS is true, why is it necessary that his flesh die in order for his spirit to be saved? In your doctrine, isn't his spirit already eternally and irreversibly saved and nothing at all ever can change that? Yet, Paul says his flesh must die in order for him to be saved. You have yet to explain why this condition is laid down IF, as you say, OSAS is true.
Do not take this personally, but obviously you did not think your statement through, before you posted it. I find your statement to be unbelievably moronic.

GOD FULFILLS HIS WORD:

Joshua 23:14 (GWT)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] “Pay attention, because I will soon die like everyone else. You know with all your heart and soul that not one single promise which the LORD your God has given you has ever failed to come true. Every single word has come true.


Acts 2:46-47 (ASV)
[SUP]46 [/SUP] And day by day, continuing stedfastly with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread at home, they took their food with gladness and singleness of heart,
[SUP]47 [/SUP] praising God, and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to them day by day those that were saved.
{NOTE: WERE SAVED before they did any works.}

Ephesians 2:5 (NCV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Though we were spiritually dead because of the things we did against God, he gave us new life with Christ. You have been saved by God’s grace.


The human spirit is SAVED into Eternal Life the MOMENT we have Saving Faith. The human body is SAVED into Eternal Life at the Resurrection, not before.



Hebrews 9:27-28 (HCSB)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] And just as it is appointed for people to die once—and after this, judgment—
[SUP]28 [/SUP] so also the Messiah, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for Him. {THERE IS THE SALVATION INTO ETERNAL LIFE OF THE HUMAN BODY.}


1 Corinthians 15:51-54 (ASV)

[SUP]51 [/SUP] Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[SUP]52 [/SUP] in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[SUP]53 [/SUP] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
[SUP]54 [/SUP] But when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


Try interpreting Scripture by comparing Scripture to other Scriptures, instead of just relying on your intellective deductive reasoning abilities. You will find you make FAR FEWER ERRORS IN INTERPRETATION. It is called the Berean way of Interpretation:


Acts 17:10-11 (NCV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] That same night the believers sent Paul and Silas to Berea where they went to the Jewish synagogue.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] These Jews were more willing to listen than the Jews in Thessalonica. The Bereans were eager to hear what Paul and Silas said and studied the Scriptures every day to find out if these things were true.


Romans 1:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Professing to be wise, they became fools,
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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[TD]From David Harsha's: "A Guide to the Savior"

Psalm 139:1-6

"O Lord, you have examined my heart
and know everything about me.
You know when I sit down or stand up.
You know my every thought when far away.
You chart the path ahead of me
and tell me where to stop and rest.
Every moment you know where I am.
You know what I am going to say
even before I say it, Lord.
You both precede and follow me.
You place your hand of blessing on my head.
Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
too great for me to know!"

Jesus has a perfect knowledge of every event
that is transpiring in the remotest part of His
mighty empire. Heaven, earth, and hell, are all
unveiled before Him. His eyes, which are as a
flame of fire, are in every place, beholding the
evil and the good. He knows perfectly well what
is the present inclination of our minds; whether
our hearts are absorbed with the empty pleasures
of earth, or whether we love Him supremely.

This is an unfailing spring of joy and consolation
for the real Christian. How inspiring to feel that
we have a Savior who knows all our needs; whose
eye is ever upon us for good; whose ear is always
opened to our petitions. 'For the eyes of the Lord
watch over the righteous, and His ears are open
to their prayers.'

Come then, you afflicted, tempest tossed child
of earth, and lay all your sorrows before an
omniscient and compassionate Savior!

Make all your desires known to Him.

He has....
a willing ear to hear you,
a willing heart to love you,
a willing hand to save you!

"O Omniscient Savior, we beseech You to watch
over us amid all the scenes of earth. We are still
on the 'ocean of life', exposed to its storms and
its tempests; but while the waves dash on every
side of us, may we see Your glorious Form on the
troubled sea; may we hear Your animating voice,
'Be of good cheer; it is I; do not be afraid.' May
we rejoice in the belief that You know all things,
and are intimately acquainted with all our ways.
Guide us with Your counsel. Show us the path of
life. Be our guiding Star until we reach the harbor
of eternal rest. Be very near us in all the
wanderings of our earthly pilgrimage."

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VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,967
4,585
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I never said works can save ou superimposed that unsolicited.

Faith and works is what I have said. Here lets see what the King says:

John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

Luke 6:46, "And why call Me; Ruler! Ruler! and do not the things which I say?"

Luke 11:28, But He said, “Blessed rather are those hearing the Word of Yah and watching over it!”

Luke 8:21, “And He answering, said to them, “My mother and My brothers are those who are hearing the Word of Yah and doing it.”

Matt 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Revelation 21:1-2, "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no more sea. And I, Yahanan, saw the holy city, YHWH Shammah, coming down from YHWH out of heaven, prepared as brides adorned for their husbands. And I heard a great voice out of heaven, saying: Behold, the tabernacle of YHWH is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and YHWH Himself will be with them, and be their Father.”

Mat 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love YHWH your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might (Deuteronomy 6:5). This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself (Leviticus 19:18). On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Mat 7:12-14, "Therefore, all things you want men to do to you, do the same to them, for this is the (intent of the) Law and the Prophets. Enter in through the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who go that way. Because straight is the gate, and narrow is the way which leads to life, and few there are who find it."

John/Yahanan 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Revelation 12:17, “And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to fight with the remnant of her seed, those guarding the commands of Yah and possessing the witness of יהושעMessiah."

Revelation 14:12, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the commands of Yah and the belief of יהושע.

James 2:14-26, “14 My brothers, what use is it for anyone to say he has belief but does not have works? This belief is unable to save him. 15, "And if a brother or sister is naked and in need of daily food, 16, "but one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” but you do not give them the bodily needs, what use is it? 17, "So also belief, if it does not have works, is in itself dead. 18, "But someone might say, “You have belief, and I have works.” Show me your belief without your works, and I shall show you my belief by my works. 19, "You believe that Yah is one. You do well. The demons also believe – and shudder! 20, "But do you wish to know, O foolish man, that the belief without the works is dead?
WHY GOOD WORKS?

Granted to GET SAVED OR TO KEEP ONE"S SELF SAVED is the WRONG MOTIVE for Good Works and is a FALSE GOSPEL.

The ONLY PURE MOTIVE for GOOD WORKS is BECAUSE WE LOVE HIM.

John 14:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] If you love Me, you will keep My commands.


1 John 5:3 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For this is what love for God is: to keep His commands. Now His commands are not a burden,



1 John 4:19 (HCSB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]We love because He first loved us.

Ephesians 2:8-10 (HCSB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not from works, so that no one can boast.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them.


GOOD WORKS are the way we can LOVE GOD and the Lord Jesus Christ, thereby fulfilling HIS Purpose for CREATING US AND FOR HAVING SAVED US (Past Tense).

Good Works HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH SALVATION, AND NEVER DID. SALVATION IS A FREE GIFT BY HIS GRACE (RECEIVING WHAT WE DO NOT DESERVE.) How can we tell who are those who are SAVED BY HIM? We are those who SHOW OUR LOVE FOR HIM BY STRIVING TO WALK IN OBEDIENCE. Wrong motives for obedience are a pile of filthy rags.

John 14:21 (HCSB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] The one who has My commands and keeps them is the one who loves Me. And the one who loves Me will be loved by My Father. I also will love him and will reveal Myself to him.”



Why is such a simple TRUTH SO MISUNDERSTOOD and EMBELLISHED?
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
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WHY GOOD WORKS?

Granted to GET SAVED OR TO KEEP ONE"S SELF SAVED is the WRONG MOTIVE for Good Works and is a FALSE GOSPEL.

The ONLY PURE MOTIVE for GOOD WORKS is BECAUSE WE LOVE HIM.

John 14:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] If you love Me, you will keep My commands.


1 John 5:3 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For this is what love for God is: to keep His commands. Now His commands are not a burden,



1 John 4:19 (HCSB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]We love because He first loved us.

Ephesians 2:8-10 (HCSB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not from works, so that no one can boast.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them.


GOOD WORKS are the way we can LOVE GOD and the Lord Jesus Christ, thereby fulfilling HIS Purpose for CREATING US AND FOR HAVING SAVED US (Past Tense).

Good Works HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH SALVATION, AND NEVER DID. SALVATION IS A FREE GIFT BY HIS GRACE (RECEIVING WHAT WE DO NOT DESERVE.) How can we tell who are those who are SAVED BY HIM? We are those who SHOW OUR LOVE FOR HIM BY STRIVING TO WALK IN OBEDIENCE. Wrong motives for obedience are a pile of filthy rags.

John 14:21 (HCSB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] The one who has My commands and keeps them is the one who loves Me. And the one who loves Me will be loved by My Father. I also will love him and will reveal Myself to him.”



Why is such a simple TRUTH SO MISUNDERSTOOD and EMBELLISHED?
Ezekiel 11:19-21, “And I shall give them one heart, and put a new spirit within you. And I shall take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh, so that they walk in My laws, and guard My right-rulings, and shall do them. And they shall be My people and I shall be their Strength. But to those whose hearts walk after the heart of their disgusting matters and their abominations, I shall recompense their deeds on their own heads,” declares the Master יהוה.”



John/Yahanan 14:23, "Yahshua answered, and said to him: If a man loves Me, he will keep My teachings and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him."

1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of YHWH: When we love YHWH by keeping His Laws. For this is the love of YHWH: That we keep His Law, and His Law is not grievous."
 
Dec 12, 2013
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How can you love Jesus if you don’t love His Word? And how can you love the word unless you obey it?
The conflict takes place in even the most faithful....the spirit is indeed willing, but the flesh is weak.....!
 
Dec 12, 2013
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No this Scripture disproves what you say;

James 2:22, "Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?"


James 2:26, "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so the faith without works is dead also."



Faith + Works



Revelation 12:17, “And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to fight with the remnant of her seed, those guarding the commands of Yah and possessing the witness of יהושע Messiah."


Revelation 14:12, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the commands of Yah and the belief of יהושע.
Wrong again....Paul concluded a man was saved/justified by faith WITHOUT WORKS....the scriptures are clear to those who do not push a false works based salvation gospel...

Before God justified by faith without works <--Paul/Romans
Before men the above seen by our works <-James/James

There is no contradiction...your view contradicts the bible!
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
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You can repeat the same mantra over and over. It doesn't change anything. This man was NOT saved because Satan destroyed his flesh. Why you would want to give credit to that is beyond me.
This man is saved because he accepted the Gospel.

He was given over as a CONSEQUENCE of his behavior, and to rid the brethren of bad leaven. NOT to save him.

Frankly, it's a little disturbing to see you thinking Satan destroying his flesh is what saved him.
Not as disturbing when one takes into account his gospel is corrupt from the root and we all know what that really means according to the bible!
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
Wrong again....Paul concluded a man was saved/justified by faith WITHOUT WORKS....the scriptures are clear to those who do not push a false works based salvation gospel...

Before God justified by faith without works <--Paul/Romans
Before men the above seen by our works <-James/James

There is no contradiction...your view contradicts the bible!

Look Look Paul say;

1 Corinthians 7:19, The circumcision is naught, and the uncircumcision is naught, but the guarding of the commands of Yah does matter!”

Romans 3:28, "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law."

Romans 3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"

Romans 6:1-2, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means!How can we who died to sin still live in it?"

Romans 7:7, Shall we therefore say that the Law is sin? No! By no means! But to the contrary, I did not know sin; transgression of the Law, except through the Law, for I did not know lust, unless the Law had said: Do not covet."

Acts 24:14, "But I confess this to you, that after the way which they call heresy--so I worship the Father of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets."

Romans 7:25, "Thanks be to YHWH, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of YHWH, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin."

Acts 21:24, "Take them, and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads. Then everyone will know that those things they were informed about you (forsaking the Law), were lies, and that you, yourself, walk orderly, and keep the Law."

Romans 7:12, "Therefore the Law is holy, and the commandments are holy, and just, and righteous."

Ephesians 6:2-3, "Honor your father and mother; which is the first commandment with a promise: That it may be well with you, and you may live long on the earth."

Rom 2:26-29, “For circumcision indeed profits if you practice the Torah, but if you are a transgressor of the Torah, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. So, if an uncircumcised one watches over the righteousnesses of the Torah, shall not his uncircumcision be reckoned as circumcision? And the uncircumcised by nature, who perfects the Torah, shall judge you who notwithstanding letter and circumcision are a transgressor of the Torah! For he is not a Yehuḏi who is so outwardly, neither is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But a Yehuḏi is he who is so inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in Spirit, not literally, whose praise is not from men but from Yah.”

Romans 2:12, “For as many as have sinned without the Law, will also perish without the Law, and as many as have sinned in the Law, will be judged by the Law.”

Look look Jesus say;

John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

Luke 6:46, "And why call Me; Ruler! Ruler! and do not the things which I say?"

Luke 11:28, But He said, “Blessed rather are those hearing the Word of Yah and watching over it!”

Luke 8:21, “And He answering, said to them, “My mother and My brothers are those who are hearing the Word of Yah and doing it.”

Mat 5:18-19, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh – the smallest of the letters – will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected. Whosoever, therefore, will break one of the least of these Laws, and will teach men so, he will be called the least in the Kingdom of YHWH; but whosoever will do and teach them, the same will be called great in the Kingdom of YHWH."

Mat 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love YHWH your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might (Deuteronomy 6:5). This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself (Leviticus 19:18). On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Mat 7:12-14, "Therefore, all things you want men to do to you, do the same to them, for this is the (intent of the) Law and the Prophets. Enter in through the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who go that way. Because straight is the gate, and narrow is the way which leads to life, and few there are who find it."

John/Yahanan 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

John 12:48, “He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day.”

Mattithyah 16:27, “For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His malakim; and then He will reward every man according to his works.”

Yahanan (John) 5:28-30, “Do not be astonished at this-for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice, and will come forth. Those who have practiced righteousness will be resurrected in order to live; and those who have practiced wickedness will be resurrected in order to be damned."

 

graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
2,180
107
63

Look Look Paul say;

1 Corinthians 7:19, The circumcision is naught, and the uncircumcision is naught, but the guarding of the commands of Yah does matter!”

Romans 3:28, "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law."

Romans 3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"

Romans 6:1-2, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means!How can we who died to sin still live in it?"

Romans 7:7, Shall we therefore say that the Law is sin? No! By no means! But to the contrary, I did not know sin; transgression of the Law, except through the Law, for I did not know lust, unless the Law had said: Do not covet."

Acts 24:14, "But I confess this to you, that after the way which they call heresy--so I worship the Father of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets."

Romans 7:25, "Thanks be to YHWH, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of YHWH, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin."

Acts 21:24, "Take them, and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads. Then everyone will know that those things they were informed about you (forsaking the Law), were lies, and that you, yourself, walk orderly, and keep the Law."

Romans 7:12, "Therefore the Law is holy, and the commandments are holy, and just, and righteous."

Ephesians 6:2-3, "Honor your father and mother; which is the first commandment with a promise: That it may be well with you, and you may live long on the earth."

Rom 2:26-29, “For circumcision indeed profits if you practice the Torah, but if you are a transgressor of the Torah, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. So, if an uncircumcised one watches over the righteousnesses of the Torah, shall not his uncircumcision be reckoned as circumcision? And the uncircumcised by nature, who perfects the Torah, shall judge you who notwithstanding letter and circumcision are a transgressor of the Torah! For he is not a Yehuḏi who is so outwardly, neither is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But a Yehuḏi is he who is so inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in Spirit, not literally, whose praise is not from men but from Yah.”

Romans 2:12, “For as many as have sinned without the Law, will also perish without the Law, and as many as have sinned in the Law, will be judged by the Law.”

Look look Jesus say;

John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

Luke 6:46, "And why call Me; Ruler! Ruler! and do not the things which I say?"

Luke 11:28, But He said, “Blessed rather are those hearing the Word of Yah and watching over it!”

Luke 8:21, “And He answering, said to them, “My mother and My brothers are those who are hearing the Word of Yah and doing it.”

Mat 5:18-19, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh – the smallest of the letters – will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected. Whosoever, therefore, will break one of the least of these Laws, and will teach men so, he will be called the least in the Kingdom of YHWH; but whosoever will do and teach them, the same will be called great in the Kingdom of YHWH."

Mat 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love YHWH your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might (Deuteronomy 6:5). This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself (Leviticus 19:18). On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Mat 7:12-14, "Therefore, all things you want men to do to you, do the same to them, for this is the (intent of the) Law and the Prophets. Enter in through the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who go that way. Because straight is the gate, and narrow is the way which leads to life, and few there are who find it."

John/Yahanan 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

John 12:48, “He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day.”

Mattithyah 16:27, “For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His malakim; and then He will reward every man according to his works.”

Yahanan (John) 5:28-30, “Do not be astonished at this-for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice, and will come forth. Those who have practiced righteousness will be resurrected in order to live; and those who have practiced wickedness will be resurrected in order to be damned."

This is just cherry-picking - and not very intelligent cherry-picking either!
Several of those texts destroy your point of view.
The others only appear to make your case, however, in each case reading around them soon gets the context straight.

I think a good book on Bible hermeneutics would not go astray for you...
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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This is just cherry-picking - and not very intelligent cherry-picking either!
Several of those texts destroy your point of view.
The others only appear to make your case, however, in each case reading around them soon gets the context straight.

I think a good book on Bible hermeneutics would not go astray for you...
John 3:36, “He who believes in the Son possesses everlasting life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of Yah remains on him.”

John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

John/Yahanan 5:24, "Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn't come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."

Hebrews 5:9, “And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting salvation to all those obeying Him.”
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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John 3:36, “He who believes in the Son possesses everlasting life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of Yah remains on him.”
In John 3:36, "He that BELIEVES on the Son has everlasting life". *Notice that this BELIEF is not in yourself or in works. Notice also that this BELIEF is not in Jesus Christ "plus something else," otherwise the BELIEF (trust, reliance) would not be "ON THE SON".


In regards to "does not obey the Son" in the New American Standard translation of the Bible, obey the Son here does not mean salvation by works, but obey by choosing to believe on the Son. If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to believe on the Son. The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NKJV says "does not believe the Son" and the NIV says "rejects the Son."

The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is apeitheo and it means: not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving. Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." In John 3:36, to not obey the Son means to reject His message.

John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."
Descriptive of UNBELIEVERS.


John/Yahanan 5:24, "Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn't come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."
Descriptive of BELIEVERS.


Hebrews 5:9, “And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting salvation to all those obeying Him.”
So who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by keeping His commands and practicing righteousness (1 John 2:3; 3:9,10). In either sense, only believers obey Him.


Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation based on their works. So in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.
 
P

PHart

Guest
He was given over as a CONSEQUENCE of his behavior, and to rid the brethren of bad leaven. NOT to save him.
Think what you want, but I see Paul clearly saying he is being given over IN ORDER TO SAVE HIS SPIRIT ON THE DAY OF CHRIST:

5I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." (1 Corinthians 5:5 NASB)

See? This isn't just about him being leaven that infects the rest of the body. This is clearly about him dying to the flesh so he can be saved at the Judgment.



Frankly, it's a little disturbing to see you thinking Satan destroying his flesh is what saved him.
He's being turned over to satan's power through his own lusts in the hope that he'll suffer to the point of repentance and will want to come back to the Lord.

"Before I was afflicted I went astray, but now I obey your word.
It was good for me to be afflicted so that I might learn your decrees."
(Psalm 119:67,71 NIV)

The question you can't seem to answer is why his dying to the flesh is necessary to be saved on "the day of the Lord Jesus" if, as you insist, he is already irretrievably and irreversibly saved and nothing in heaven or earth can change or affect that.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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You probably won't make it.....too much happening world wide in my view!

I know, we already have the Wars and Rumors of War, the Earthquakes in diverse places, the Pestilances (Diseases the Kill), Ethnic Groups rising up against other Ethnic Groups, etc. Archeologists (including one Jewish Archeolgists) have found evidence that the original Temple location was about 900 meters to the South of the Dome of the Rock, on the original Mt. Zion in modern day City of DAVID. At the time of Christ that site was the Southeast Corner o Jerusalem. The Jews forgot that part of their History was that after the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. the Romans built a Temple to Jupiter on the site of Solomon's Temple. Thus when Simon the Prince of Judah and his forces overthrew the Romans in 132 A.D., Simon declared the original Temple Mount DEFILED, and turned the original Mt. Zion into a Rock Quarry, and lowered Mt. Zion to the height of the surrounding City of David, throwing the rock into the Valley to the South, creating a level road bed access from the South, to Jerusalem. Israel's Antiquities Authority is currently examing the archeological discoveries in the City of David to determine the validity of the Archeologists discoveries. When validated, that location has never been under the control of the Palestinians, and therefore the building of the Third Temple can begin immediately. {For more info see my thread}:
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/155526-third-temple-news.html

So the Rapture may happen long before I am 84, if not, males in my family usually die in their 60's or 70's of heart attacks.