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Roughsoul1991

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For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope.

Poking fun at OSAS again. How do we eagerly await for something if you already have obtained it?

1 Peter 1:9New International Version (NIV)

9 for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
 

mailmandan

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2 Peter 3:14-18Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

Conclusion

14 Therefore, dear friends, while you wait for these things, make every effort to be found at peace with Him without spot or blemish. 15 Also, regard the patience of our Lord as an opportunity for salvation, just as our dear brother Paul has written to you according to the wisdom given to him. 16 He speaks about these things in all his letters in which there are some matters that are hard to understand. The untaught and unstable twist them to their own destruction, as they also do with the rest of the Scriptures.

This same very thing is happening now in the church as to the same reason why Peter was having to write and warn believers. Warning us that people are here trying to twist Pauls teachings to promote a walkless faith and the OSAS doctrine.
"Unstable, untaught, twisting the Scriptures to their own destruction" is not descriptive of genuine believers. Nothing is mentioned here about walkless faith or the OSAS doctrine. That is your personal commentary.

17 Therefore, dear friends, since you know this in advance, be on your guard, so that you are not led away by the error of lawless people and fall from your own stability.
"Dear friends" and "lawless people" are two separate groups.


18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
Amen!

Keep in mind Peter is speaking to believers. Be on guard why if we are eternally secured? Led away from what if we are secured? Fall from your own stability? Why do we need to grow if we have nothing to grow into? Maybe the growth helps us be on guard from being led away.
Why didn't Peter specifically say "lose salvation" if that is the final result? Believers continue to grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. That is part of our ongoing sanctification.
Proverbs 24:16 - For a righteous man may fall seven times And rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity. hmm...

Hebrews 10Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

The Perfect Sacrifice

10 Since the law has only a shadow of the good things to come, and not the actual form of those realities, it can never perfect the worshipers by the same sacrifices they continually offer year after year. 2 Otherwise, wouldn’t they have stopped being offered, since the worshipers, once purified, would no longer have any consciousness of sins? 3 But in the sacrifices, there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
5 Therefore, as He was coming into the world, He said:
You did not want sacrifice and offering,
but You prepared a body for Me.
6 You did not delight
in whole burnt offerings and sin offerings.
7 Then I said, “See—
it is written about Me
in the volume of the scroll—
I have come to do Your will, God!”[a]


8 After He says above, You did not want or delight in sacrifices and offerings, whole burnt offerings and sin offerings (which are offered according to the law), 9 He then says, See, I have come to do Your will.[b]He takes away the first to establish the second. 10 By this will of God, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once and for all.
11 Every priest stands day after day ministering and offering the same sacrifices time after time, which can never take away sins. 12 But this man, after offering one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God. 13 He is now waiting until His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are sanctified. 15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. For after He says:
16 This is the covenant I will make with them
after those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws on their hearts
and write them on their minds,


17 He adds:
I will never again remember
their sins and their lawless acts.[c]


18 Now where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

This is very beautiful and the hope we have in Christ. This is the only sacrifice that matters and we must remain in the faith of the only sacrifice for sins. That is the only way our sins are forgotten by the mediation of Christ. Walk away from Christ, lose faith then what sacrifice is available?
Those who permanently walk away were never firmly rooted and established in the faith to begin with.InHebrews 4, notice in verses 2-3, For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For we who have BELIEVED do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Not all of these Jews were Christians. Notice that verses 2-3 makes a distinction between "us" who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and "them" who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.

John 6:66-68Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

66 From that moment many of His disciples turned back and no longer accompanied Him. 67 Therefore Jesus said to the Twelve, “You don’t want to go away too, do you?”
68 Simon Peter answered, “Lord, who will we go to? You have the words of eternal life.
Hebrews 10 continued
*You left out verse 64 - But there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. *Notice in John 8:31 - If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine. Those who walked with Him no more because they were offended by His words were not truly His disciples. *You also left out John 6:70 in which Jesus described Judas as a devil. Judas did not continue and also fits John 6:64.

Exhortations to Godliness

19 Therefore, brothers, (very clear the author is speaking to believers if you haven't figured that out) since we have boldness to enter the sanctuary through the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way He has opened for us through the curtain (that is, His flesh), 21 and since we have a great high priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed in pure water. 23 Let us hold on to the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. 24 And let us be concerned about one another in order to promote love and good works, 25 not staying away from our worship meetings, as some habitually do, but encouraging each other, and all the more as you see the day drawing near.

This is our Christian walk, our faith in action is to draw near with a true heart, remain in faith to our original confession without wavering, and to keep encouraging other brothers/sisters to stay connected, stay in love, and to keep building up the church. Because the day is drawing near for everyone to be held for what they did with the time allotted by God to us here on earth.
*So where are the words, "lose salvation?"

Warning against Deliberate Sin

26 For if we deliberately sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire about to consume the adversaries. 28 If anyone disregards Moses’ law, he dies without mercy, based on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think one will deserve who has trampled on the Son of God, regarded as profane[d] the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know the One who has said, Vengeance belongs to Me, I will repay,[e][f] and again, The Lord will judge His people.[g] 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God!
32 Remember the earlier days when, after you had been enlightened, you endured a hard struggle with sufferings. 33 Sometimes you were publicly exposed to taunts and afflictions, and at other times you were companions of those who were treated that way. 34 For you sympathized with the prisoners[h] and accepted with joy the confiscation of your possessions, knowing that you yourselves have a better and enduring possession.[i] 35So don’t throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. 36 For you need endurance, so that after you have done God’s will, you may receive what was promised.
37 For yet in a very little while,
the Coming One will come and not delay.
38 But My righteous one[j] will live by faith;
and if he draws back,
I have no pleasure in him.[k]


39 But we are not those who draw back and are destroyed, but those who have faith and obtain life.
In Hebrews 10:26, to "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and accidently fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin - (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God - (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).

The reference to "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" in verse 29 seems to be referring to a Christian, but this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" (which is a term often applied to Christians; it is the verb form of the adjective "holy") really just means "set apart," and doesn't necessarily refer to salvation. In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses it to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "sanctified" or "made holy" by their believing spouse. (And by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). A non-Christian can be "set apart" and from other non-Christians and sinful things without experiencing salvation as Paul clearly explained. So the word "sanctified" means to be "set apart." If the word "sanctified" simply meant saved, then you would have to say that the Sabbath was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), the Lord was saved (Leviticus 10:3), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36) and many other things that just do not line up with Scripture.

In verse 39, the author sets up the contrast that makes it clear to me that he was referring to unbelievers, not saved people: But WE are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition. So after considering the context, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as an active participant in the Christian community of believers, but who has subsequently committed apostasy by renouncing his identification with other believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received, and by repudiating the work and the person of Christ himself. Such a person’s apostasy is thus evidence that his identification with the Christian community was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer.

2 Peter 2:21-22Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy command delivered to them. 22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb: A dog returns to its own vomit,[a] and, “a sow, after washing itself, wallows in the mud.”
Those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature, and they have new and different appetites and desires. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. *These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.

Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. *Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature.

Corruption (Strongs #5356) (to shrivel or wither, spoil , ruin , deprave, corrupt , defile, to destroy by means of corrupting, to spoil as does milk). Corruption - describes decomposition or rotting of an organism and the accompanying stench. The utter depravity of the fallen flesh and the resultant moral decomposition of the world opposed to God is driven by it sinful lusts or evil desires. Internal corruption.

Pollutions/Defilements (Strongs #3393) ("pollutions", "filthy things", "contaminations", "world's filth") describes the state of being tainted or stained by evil and refers to impurity, impure, tainted, defilement, foulness or pollution.

Pollutions/Defilement refers to what is on the outside (2 Peter 2:20). But genuine believers have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust (2 Peter 1:4).

*Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside.

Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these men because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment.

Its really not that scary. The author is just saying remain in Faith. Well, I suppose for people that are living lukewarm this verse won't sit too well on the stomach.

Obviously, this verse is similar to......
You are absolutely obsessed with the NOSAS doctrine. What's really scary is remaining on that roller coaster ride of fear and bondage to In-security. :eek:

 

mailmandan

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Hebrews 6Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

Warning against Regression

6 Therefore, leaving the elementary message about the Messiah, let us go on to maturity,(this is the mature side of faith that some do not make it to) not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, faith in God, 2 teaching about ritual washings,[a] laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And we will do this if God permits. (Its still obvious the author is talking to believers.)
4 For it is impossible to renew to repentance those who were once enlightened, who tasted the heavenly gift, became companions with the Holy Spirit,( this is just one example that having the Spirit and seal coincides with my explanation of Gods earnest agreement)

5 tasted God’s good word and the powers of the coming age, 6 and who have fallen away, because,[b] to their own harm,( to their own harm, their own choice to deny Christ) they are recrucifying the Son of God and holding Him up to contempt. 7 For ground that has drunk the rain that has often fallen on it and that produces vegetation useful to those it is cultivated for receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it produces thorns and thistles, it is worthless and about to be cursed, and will be burned at the end.

We still do not know if the author is saying impossible on a psychological level or spiritual. If its psychological then yeah, of course, its impossible while the believer who fell away remains in their heart set to deny Christ. Then, of course, it impossible for us to bring them back. Which would make sense because what wouldn't make sense is to say from a spiritual standpoint that it's impossible with God. Which we know nothing is impossible with God. But on the other hand even from a spiritual standpoint if a man is set to deny Christ out of free will in his psychological state then God honors his choice. So in a way, even man can make it impossible for God due to Gods honoring of free will.

I think I just made myself even more aware of what this verse is saying lol. But anyways onward we go....

9 Even though we are speaking this way, dear friends, in your case we are confident ( notice no one ever says we are certain) of the better things connected with salvation. 10 For God is not unjust; He will not forget your work and the love[c] you showed for His name when you served the saints—and you continue to serve them.11 Now we want each of you to demonstrate the same diligence for the final realization of your hope, ( diligence careful and persistent work or effort to remain in faith unto the end.) 12 so that you won’t become lazy but will be imitators of those who inherit the promises through faith and perseverance.
I've heard three different interpretations for Hebrews 6:4-6 (hypothetical view, lost salvation view, never truly saved view) but am not convinced that it teaches a really "saved" person really "lost their salvation." NOWHERE does the Bible use the words "lost salvation." According to the hypothetical interpretation, the key word in the passage is IF (verse 6). The writer of Hebrews is setting up a hypothetical statement: "IF a Christian were to fall away . . " The point being made is that it would be impossible (IF a Christian falls away) to renew them again to repentance. That’s because Christ died once for sin and if His sacrifice is insufficient, then there’s no hope at all. The passage, therefore, presents an argument based on a false premise (that a true Christian can fall away) and follows it to its senseless conclusion (that Jesus would have to be sacrificed again and again). The absurdity of the conclusion points up the impossibility of the original assumption.

In regards to once enlightened - The word enlightened means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. Figuratively, photizo means to give guidance or understanding, to make clear or to cause something to be known by revealing clearly. John 1:9 describes Jesus, the "true Light," giving light "to every man"; but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. This light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject such light.

partakers of the Holy Spirit - Partakers describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an enterprise or undertaking. It speaks of those who are participators in something. Business partner, companion. Participating in. Accomplice in. Comrade. Metochos is used elsewhere in Hebrews in the context of believers (Hebrews 3:14 - "For we have become partakers of Christ") and thus the statement that the readers have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit seems at first glance to be support that true believers are being addressed, yet there are other ministries of the Holy Spirit that precede the indwelling of believers. It is very plausible to envision an individual becoming a sharer in or partaker of the Spirit (and his pre-salvation ministry - convicting of sin, righteousness and judgment to come) by responding for a time to His drawing power intended to lead sinners to Christ. The translation "shared" implies something done in company with others and before salvation all believers shared in the convicting ministry of the Spirit Who drew them to salvation. Note also that the writer does not state that these individuals were "indwelt by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit" or "possessors of the Spirit's pledge (guarantee) of future inheritance."

tasted the good word of God - They had tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of its character and quality, yet they still turned away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept the thing that is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, He would not drink it." *Do we taste into one Spirit or drink into one Spirit? (1 Corinthians 12:13).

fall away - I find it interesting that the term "fall away" or "stumble" was used by the Lord Jesus of His 11 disciples at the time of His arrest. The disciples deserted Jesus as was predicted and Peter obviously denied Jesus three times. They were said to "fall away." Matthew 26:31 - Then Jesus said to them, "You will all fall away because of Me this night, for it is written, 'I WILL STRIKE DOWN THE SHEPHERD, AND THE SHEEP OF THE FLOCK SHALL BE SCATTERED.' 32 "But after I have been raised, I will go ahead of you to Galilee." 33 But Peter said to Him, "Even though all may fall away because of You, I will never fall away." Obviously, this was not a loss of salvation. For a righteous man may fall seven times AND rise again, But the wicked shall FALL by calamity. (Proverbs 24:16)

Hebrews 6:7,8 - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this agricultural metaphor, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. When we recall the other metaphors in Scripture where good fruit is a sign of true spiritual life and fruitlessness is a sign of false believers (for example - Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35), we already have an indication that the author is speaking of people whose most trustworthy evidence of their spiritual condition (the fruit they bear) is negative, suggesting that the author is talking about people who are not genuine Christians. Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (calls them BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and permanently falling away do not accompany salvation.

It is generally stated by those who believe salvation can be lost that you can get it back again. If the writer of Hebrews was truly teaching that a really "saved," person really "lost their salvation" then why didn't he simply say, "For it is impossible for those who were once born again or saved, if they fall away, to renew them again to salvation? Why is it that we never find the words "lost or lose your salvation" in the Bible? *That would certainly settle the issue.

Imitators meaning we have not yet reached slavation, but we must act as those who inherit the promises, this is remaining in faith and having hope for what is to come. Every scripture promotes this idea that remaining in faith is obvious that we will gain salvation. This is why we can say yes I am currently saved because we are in faith and believe in the sacrifice of Jesus and his mediation.
Believers who have been saved through faith (first tense of salvation - justification); have not yet reached the third tense of salvation (glorification). It's only natural that NT writers would speak about continue in faith, for they are addressing groups of people who profess to be Christians, without being able to know the actual state of every person's heart. How can they avoid giving them false assurance here that they will be eternally saved when in fact they may not? Those who continue in faith show thereby that they are genuine believers. But those who do not continue show that faith was never firmly rooted from the start.

*Notice in Hebrews 3:14, For we have become [past tense Gk. verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end. The only ones in the end who will be identified as those who have become partakers of Christ, will have been those who hold fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. These faltering Hebrews who depart from God begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty. But later? Perseverance is proof of genuine conversion. The wording of the above verse in Hebrews is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been, and now are, partakers of Christ, if in the future you hold fast to Christ."
 

mailmandan

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James 5:19-20
My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
*Notice - Brethren, if anyone "among" you wanders from the truth..turns a "sinner" from the error of his way.. Some would argue that James says this one who turned from the truth was a "sinner," and was "among" but "not of" the Brethren, then he wasn’t previously saved. That fits 1 John 2:19 - They went out "from" us, but they were "not of" us..

IF this person was a genuine believer, yet how do we know for sure this is the second death in the lake of fire? In Matthew 26:38, Jesus said: "My soul [psuche] is deeply grieved, to the point of death." Jesus was not saying that His soul was deeply grieved to the point of spiritual death, Rather, Jesus was talking about physical death, his human life. In Revelation 16:3, "The second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became blood like that of a dead man; and every living soul [psuche] in the sea died". In 1 Peter 3:20 "... God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, [psuche-souls] were brought safely (saved from drowning, physical death) through the water" by the ark (Hebrews 11:7).

Jesus covered our sins in one way (Romans 4:7) by bringing forgiveness for all believers, yet sins can also be covered in a different way. In Proverbs 10:12, we read: Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all sins. In 1 Peter 4:8, we read: And above all things have fervent love for one another, for "love will cover a multitude of sins." Where there is strife, there is hatred and unless love prevails, the strife will get worse. Love covers offenses and sins when a believer turns back from error.

So is this wanderer a professing Christian, whose faith is not genuine, or a sinning Christian, who needs to be restored? For the former, the death spoken of in vs. 20 is the "second death" (Revelation 21:8); for the latter, it is physical death (1 Corinthians 11:29-32; 1 John 5:16).
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Im not sure if i have ever explained what loss of salvation means. Its not so much as its gone but so much as denied.

Salvation is never lost but can be denied by mankind being a believer or not both can deny it.

Idk if this clarifies it but i also believe that this topic should never be the basis of teaching. As to The message of the cross should be center and everything else branches off it.

But on this topic some seem to ignore these warnings aa non relative. So for my own sake i debate it and at the same time it builds my apologetics. And so far i have only been led to truth so my stance still remains.

Maybe one day it will change but i see scripture with warnings about falling away and believers apostasy as a possibility.
Thank you for this.

I see salvation as something that God gives us freely, Something that is based on his promise, But he does not just give it away,, He knows your true heart, he also knows every aspect of your life. and what you will do until the day you die.

For this reason, He is not going to give someone a gift he KNOWS one day is going to deny it, deny him, and want nothign to do with him (if they even believe in him anymore)

Also, Not just his infinite knowledge factor. but the gift itself

1. He calls it eternal life, Why would he give a perosn ETERNAL life knowing th person would give it back, or in the case of legalism, fail to live up to the standard required to maintain it
2. He adopts you as a son,, WHy would he make you a son KNOWING you will one day deny him and go against him, or fail to live up to the requirement required to maintain sonship
3. He said he raised you from life to death, WHy would he then kill you again, or allow you to be made alive, knowing he would have to kill you again, or that you would not be able to maintain the right to stay alive
4. He said in John 6, you would never hunger, never thirst, Live forever, Never die, Assured he will raise you on the last day, and have eternal life,, Why would he say you have ALL these things KNOWING he would have to go back on his promise (even if it is because you later rejected him, or did not live up to the standard, He still made promised he KNEW he was not going to be able to keep.
 

mailmandan

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Apr 7, 2014
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For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope.

Poking fun at OSAS again. How do we eagerly await for something if you already have obtained it?

1 Peter 1:9New International Version (NIV)

9 for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
You do realize that there are 3 different tenses to salvation, right? We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification); we are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification); we will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification). Which tense do you think "end of your faith" refers to? Out of everyone who is justified, how many of them will be glorified? Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them.

Also, unlike the english word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. - Strong's #1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope. It's not some cross your fingers and hope I win the lottery kind of hope. If we have saving faith in Christ then we have this hope. Faith is the assurance of things hoped for.. (Hebrews 11:1). So that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life (Titus 3:7).
 

BillG

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I've heard three different interpretations for Hebrews 6:4-6 (hypothetical view, lost salvation view, never truly saved view) but am not convinced that it teaches a really "saved" person really "lost their salvation." NOWHERE does the Bible use the words "lost salvation." According to the hypothetical interpretation, the key word in the passage is IF (verse 6). The writer of Hebrews is setting up a hypothetical statement: "IF a Christian were to fall away . . " The point being made is that it would be impossible (IF a Christian falls away) to renew them again to repentance. That’s because Christ died once for sin and if His sacrifice is insufficient, then there’s no hope at all. The passage, therefore, presents an argument based on a false premise (that a true Christian can fall away) and follows it to its senseless conclusion (that Jesus would have to be sacrificed again and again). The absurdity of the conclusion points up the impossibility of the original assumption.
what I find interesting is that in fall away in the above passage is

parapiptō

The Meaning of the Fall in Hebrews 6:6
Although most contemporary commentators define parapiptin Hebrews 6:6 as fall away or apostatize, linguistic evidence doesnot support this. Liddell and Scott take the basic meaning ofparapiptin Classical Greek to be fall beside . . . fall in one’s way. . . go astray, err.27 They list the meaning of fall aside or awayfrom,28 but note that this usage precedes the genitive of the objectfrom which one had fallen. Hebrews 6:6 lacks this construction.

The text does not read
kai parapesontas ts pistes (“and fell aside from the faith]”).29 Moreover, W. Bauder defines parapiptas“lit. fall beside, befall, go astray, err,”30 or as “a mistake, err,meaning an accidental and excusable oversight.”31 Michaelis alsosummarizes the Classical meaning of parapiptas “‘to fall besideor aside,’ . . . ‘to stumble on something by chance,’ . . . ‘to be ledsomewhere or other’ . . . The sense ‘to be led past,’ ‘to go astray,’‘to be mistaken,’ also occurs in Polyb. . . . also abs. ‘to make amistake.’”32 Thus, in Classical Greek, parapiptdoes not mean toapostatize.

My guess is that if this was talking about a wilful rejection of Jesus then the writer would have used

apostasia

Which is basically abandon the faith, reject Jesus.




 
Dec 12, 2013
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You do realize that there are 3 different tenses to salvation, right? We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification); we are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification); we will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification). Which tense do you think "end of your faith" refers to? Out of everyone who is justified, how many of them will be glorified? Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them.

Also, unlike the english word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. - Strong's #1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope. It's not some cross your fingers and hope I win the lottery kind of hope. If we have saving faith in Christ then we have this hope. Faith is the assurance of things hoped for.. (Hebrews 11:1). So that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life (Titus 3:7).[/QUOTE

Verb tense (the inspired verb tense) is rejected and or flat ignored by the sinless workers for....a present continuing result from a past completed action......Whatsoever God does the bible states is EVERLASTING....that includes saving someone.....saved when they exercised saving faith, saved right now and continuing to be saved into the future....Jesus will finish what he started and bring it to fruition....end of story.....those who trust self, works or a blended false gospel of faith and works for salvation will find out how wrong they were......!
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
I have to wonde,r if the thief lost faith before he died, due to whatever reason, would he have forfeit his salvation? If so,. Why did Jesus make a promise he knew he could not keep? Jesu ssaid, today you will be with me in paradise. If he forfeit his salvation due to lack of faith, why did Jesus not know and make that promise?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope.

Poking fun at OSAS again. How do we eagerly await for something if you already have obtained it?

1 Peter 1:9New International Version (NIV)

9 for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
I have the tickets to a concert.

They are mine, I am going, They were given to me by my farther.. I eagerly await the time I can go to actually see the concert.

I have salvation, You could say the ticket to heaven, My father (God) gave them to me,, I eagerly await the time I can actually go and see heaven,
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Thank you for this.

I see salvation as something that God gives us freely, Something that is based on his promise, But he does not just give it away,, He knows your true heart, he also knows every aspect of your life. and what you will do until the day you die.

For this reason, He is not going to give someone a gift he KNOWS one day is going to deny it, deny him, and want nothign to do with him (if they even believe in him anymore)

Also, Not just his infinite knowledge factor. but the gift itself

1. He calls it eternal life, Why would he give a perosn ETERNAL life knowing th person would give it back, or in the case of legalism, fail to live up to the standard required to maintain it
2. He adopts you as a son,, WHy would he make you a son KNOWING you will one day deny him and go against him, or fail to live up to the requirement required to maintain sonship
3. He said he raised you from life to death, WHy would he then kill you again, or allow you to be made alive, knowing he would have to kill you again, or that you would not be able to maintain the right to stay alive
4. He said in John 6, you would never hunger, never thirst, Live forever, Never die, Assured he will raise you on the last day, and have eternal life,, Why would he say you have ALL these things KNOWING he would have to go back on his promise (even if it is because you later rejected him, or did not live up to the standard, He still made promised he KNEW he was not going to be able to keep.
They simply have no concept of being born of incorruptible seed and that a son will remain a son by birth for ever....it cannot be forfeit and or changed by any circumstance.....God is clear...WHATSOEVER God does it is everlasting....end of story.....to deny this or reject this is to reject scripture...period!
 
Dec 12, 2013
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I have the tickets to a concert.

They are mine, I am going, They were given to me by my farther.. I eagerly await the time I can go to actually see the concert.

I have salvation, You could say the ticket to heaven, My father (God) gave them to me,, I eagerly await the time I can actually go and see heaven,

I know....plain as day.........we have yet to receive a glorified body and even Paul spoke of the gain found in death.....tragic day for sure coming for those who never really trusted Jesus....I take him at his word...He will complete and finish what he started with me...........and I am a SON by birth, eternally and of incorruptible seed!
 
Feb 24, 2015
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I have the tickets to a concert.

They are mine, I am going, They were given to me by my farther.. I eagerly await the time I can go to actually see the concert.

I have salvation, You could say the ticket to heaven, My father (God) gave them to me,, I eagerly await the time I can actually go and see heaven,
Funny how tickets can be faked, and those not invited can force there
way in.

"I don't know How a person can look at the rules. And see how often he fails to live up to those rules. and see them as a delight, it boggles my mind to see yourself as a winner when the rules keep exposing how sinful you are. it is beyond me, "

Cause me to understand the way of your precepts, that I may meditate on your wonderful deeds.
Psalm 119:27

These are two different spiritual worlds being expressed here.
The person expressing feelings about Gods law and His love, has got things very wrong, and
is assuming way too much.

Probably their hearts are a totally closed book, which explains everything, why they feel so
condemned all the time, because they have never let Christ in.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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Funny how tickets can be faked, and those not invited can force there
way in.

"I don't know How a person can look at the rules. And see how often he fails to live up to those rules. and see them as a delight, it boggles my mind to see yourself as a winner when the rules keep exposing how sinful you are. it is beyond me, "

Cause me to understand the way of your precepts, that I may meditate on your wonderful deeds.
Psalm 119:27

These are two different spiritual worlds being expressed here.
The person expressing feelings about Gods law and His love, has got things very wrong, and
is assuming way too much.

Probably their hearts are a totally closed book, which explains everything, why they feel so
condemned all the time, because they have never let Christ in.
yes, there are 2 worlds going head to head here. there is the truthful one that maintains the Bible position of being saved by grace through faith, for the good works that God has prepared for us to do.

then there is the man-made lie that you and others try to sell that we are saved by grace and works, and then having enough faith.

so yes, two worlds. one right, one wrong.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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yes, there are 2 worlds going head to head here. there is the truthful one that maintains the Bible position of being saved by grace through faith, for the good works that God has prepared for us to do.

then there is the man-made lie that you and others try to sell that we are saved by grace and works, and then having enough faith.

so yes, two worlds. one right, one wrong.
A very accurate assessment..........I will take the simplicity found in Christ.....believe = saved
 
Nov 22, 2015
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I'm right, you're all wrong, deal with it..

LOL JK :eek:
LOL...Paul says "none of us know things as we ought to know them".....but I propose this below anyways because of your statement.

It just sounds "so religious and pious" to clean out those amongst us that don't agree with what "I and my group believe."


What must we do to do the works of God? - burn the heretics that don't agree with me! ( source - unknown gospel of the religious mind )



 
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